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Thomas Crawford
03-23-2009, 10:11 PM
Looking to make my first handplane purchases and want to get the most bang for my buck, a combination of used and new. I figure I want to get one new plane that just needs some sharpening so I can feel what a properly tuned tool feels like when working wood.

The new planes I'm considering are the bevel-up jointer, jack, and smoother from lee valley.

Which of the new planes gives me the most for my money?

Which old planes should I target? Looking for the common Stanleys, good users that are moderately priced.

I don't mind doing some basic cleaning and tuning of a used plane, but would probably pay a little more for one that someone else has already tuned. I just read the thread on flattening the #7 and not sure I want to attempt anything like that yet.

edit to add that my first project is the Roubo bench, so I will need to plane and joint 8' long 2x4's that have been ripped from 2x10's and 2x12's (SYP).

Ben Rafael
03-23-2009, 10:58 PM
Which of the new planes gives me the most for my money?

(SYP).
Depends on what you want to do?
I love my #7 and have done smoothing with it. I also use it for prepping nearly all my edges before edge joining.
The plane I get the most use out of is my block plane. I have one from LV that has an adjustable mouth. I find it to be a nice all around tool.

Thomas Crawford
03-23-2009, 11:03 PM
Basically I want the 2-3 planes that will enable me to build the Roubo bench in Schwartz's book entirely by hand.

After that I owe the wife a bookshelf, and then I'm going to build a hanging tool cabinet for the shop.

Brian Kent
03-23-2009, 11:21 PM
The most useful all around plane for my use is the Lee Valley Bevel Up Jack. I would choose the harder blade plus one extra with a steeper angle. Although it is a jack, it is also excellent for a final smooth finish.

If the others are used, I would say a well-tuned adjustable mouth block plane (like an old Stanley 60-1/2), a smoother (3, 4, or 4-1/2), and for that big surface, a #7. The #7 is the best one to go used on because new jointer planes are really expensive!

I always recommend one more - the Rosewood High Angle Polish Plane. For $55 it cannot be beat on many of the woods I work with.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602

Now backing off a bit - if I could have just 2 planes, they would be the Lee Valley Low Angle Jack and an adjustable mouth block plane.

Brian

Jim Koepke
03-24-2009, 1:37 AM
An adjustable mouth, low angle, block plane would be the one on my list to buy new. Of all the planes in my shop, it is one that gets used on almost every job. It is great on end grain and also good for chamfering corners.

My current crop consists of pairs of 60-1/2 and 65s by Stanley.

The reason these would be my choice for the premium lines is the price between a good used and new is less than what my experience has been with the bench planes. They are a little more tricky to tune than a bench plane. Block planes are also a little less forgiving of rough handling. Many block planes suffer stress cracks around the mouth from the lever cap being on too tight. They can also get stripped adjusting screws when people don't loosen the cap to adjust the blade. Finally, so many of them I see for auction are missing the mouth adjusting harp. Unless you feel lucky, it is best to be knowledgeable on block planes before buying used.

Bench planes are enough headache to buy used, which is my suggestion. I do not disagree with others who like new planes. They are good value. How ever, my life has been making and repairing things, why stop now. There can be a lot of enjoyment in buying a tool that was made a century ago and spend a little time with it to make it work as well, or better, as it ever has. Only two of my bench planes have cost me more than $40. Most of them well less than that.

As far as actual sizes to get depends a lot on you. If you are going to do edge joining of boards for deep shelves and cabinets, then my suggestion would lean toward a #7 or #8 Stanley. If you are buying these on eBay, then look at the completed auctions to get an idea of what their recent prices. My bit of luck was mine came with handles that had been painted by a person working in a shop where the different workers had different colors on their handles to ID their tools. That kept the bidding down and the plane had been well cared for. Also look for recent bids on any parts that may be missing. You will often find it is cheaper to buy a completed plane than to try an put one together.

Then there is the question of your using surfaced wood or rough wood. If you are using surfaced wood that just needs a little work, then one cheap way to get a good surfacing plane would be to get a #6 Stanley. One of the authorities on all planes Stanley, Patrick Leach, has questioned the reasoning behind ever making such. Hence, the pricing is lower. At 18 inches long, it can be used as a big jack or a short joiner. With operator care, it should be able to smooth the boards for the bench for joining. Otherwise if the boards for your bench are being joined on the 4" edge, a #8 may be the best for this job. It is the widest and longest of the Stanley bench planes.

For smoothing, I do like my #4-1/2. It is a bit heavier than a #4. The #4 is much more common and thus less expensive on the used market.

Near the top of the thread listings for Neanderthal Haven is Neanderthal Wisdom, FAQs. There are a lot of links in there. Some to others who sell used planes, Walt at Brass City Records comes to mind. There is also a lot of sites with a lot of information about planes. So, it is worth looking into before you buy.

If you have any questions about planes you are looking at on eBay, I am always happy to give my opinion. I am not in the market for eBay planes currently, but that is where many of mine were found. Of course, there is no way to tell the condition of what can not be seen. I have bought what looked like rust buckets just for the parts only to find there were some good planes under the rust that came off fairly easy.

As far as lapping the sole goes, there are different opinions on this. My philosophy is if the plane is working fine, then I shouldn't spend much time fixing what ain't broken. Others will stress if it is 0.0001" out of flat. The grit on 100 sandpaper will put deeper scratches than that on the sole.

Finally, another point of disagreement when buying used is how old? My preference is for planes built before the 1920s. It is a personal preference based on a few observations and preferences. The Sweet Hart era began in the 1920s and these tend to carry a price premium. Not that they are better planes, it is the company history of the time. The one feature I do like about these is in 1920, the adjuster nut was upsized, making it a little easier to adjust the blade. I have converted most of my planes to this feature. Next, for a little more savings, the planes built from 1902 till before 1910 have all but a Frog Adjusting Screw. It is a nice, but unneeded feature. With out the FAS, the planes are a touch cheaper. Really, unless one is trying to dial in a perfect setting, the FAS requires as much work to use than just doing without. I think only three of the planes in the picture below have the FAS. If you do need to set the frog different a lot, then it might be easier to get a second plane of the same size and have the two set for the different use.

I think there are only five or six bench planes in my shop not in the picture. The only Stanley bench plane not in my shop is the #8. If one comes around in my price range, then there will be one. In my thoughts, the #10 series are specialty planes, not bench planes.

Of all my planes, the #4s through #6 get the most use.

jim

Eric Brown
03-24-2009, 7:02 AM
When looking at older planes you might consider getting one's with corrigated bottoms. They sell for slightly more but the bottoms have less metal to remove when flattening (If needed at all). I also find that the corrigations hold extra wax and that can make planing sappy wood easier.

If I could only have two planes they would be the Veritas premium block plane (I love mine) and either a 5 1/2 L-N Bedrock or #7 Stanley with a thick blade.

One more thing. None of the planes will work well unless you can also sharpen them. Better blades stay sharp longer, thicker one's chatter less, but they all get dull eventually.

For sharpening I use the Sharptons from L-N.

Eric

scott spencer
03-24-2009, 7:33 AM
If I were looking for 3 planes to get started I'd go with a 6" block plane, #3 and #5. There are others that certainly have more experience than me, but I've found alot of good old used planes from Millers Falls, Record, and the Stanley Baileys that are very functional and affordable. They're also much cooler than new planes IMO. Like many things, there are different lines at different quality levels, and different eras when some were better than others.

The better Millers Falls planes use numbers like 8, 9, 10, 11, and 14 as oppposed to their lesser lines with 2 & 3 digits like the 90 or 814. (Note that the Millers Falls numbering system is different than Stanley's... MF #8 is the equivalent of a Bailey #3, and an MF #14 is the equivalent of a Bailey #5)

The Baileys from Type 17 and earlier are very good, are easy to come by, and are generally very reasonable. Type 11 to pre-WWII era are particularly popular. ...skip the Stanley "Handyman's", etc.

Most of the Record planes I've seen are pretty good, but I'd shy away from their newer offerings. Their markings tend to mimic Stanley's from era to era.

A Bailey 5-1/4 Type 13:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Planes/type13010.jpg

A Record 04:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Planes/R04.jpg
From L to R, Record 9-1/2 block, 3, 4, 4-1/2, 5, 5-1/2, 6, and 7:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Planes/leahspics006.jpg

MF #9,11, & 14:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Planes/9-10-08009-1-1.jpg

Robert Rozaieski
03-24-2009, 8:06 AM
Thomas,

If you are going to buy a combination of new and used planes, here's my recommendation. It may be worth exactly what you payed for it but you asked :D.

For your new plane, go with the jointer; low angle or standard angle is up to you, it really makes no difference. My reasons for suggesting you get the jointer as your new plane are first, because a jointer needs to be relatively flat. If you end up with a used jointer that is not flat enough, they are a lot of work and much more difficult to get to acceptably flat than a shorter plane. Second, for making your workbench, or any piece of furniture by hand for that matter, it will likely be your most used plane.

The smoother can be bought new or used, your choice. The advantages of new would be relatively little tune up required but you will pay for that in a higher price tag. The advantages of used are reduced monetary investment but potentially more investment in time to tune the tool up. Depends on what is more valuable to you and if you consider time to tune a used tool as part of the cost of the tool or part of the enjoyment of using it. Flattening a smoother (only if it needs it though) is relatively easy because of the short sole, which makes it a good candidate for buying used. One thing to keep in mind, in a hand tool shop, your smoother is your least used plane (another point for the used option). The jack and jointer will see much more use if you do all your planing by hand. I also recommend you do not smooth plane your bench top unless you like chasing your stock all over your shop when planing. You don't want a smooth (translation: slippery) top. You want a top that has a little grip to it to keep your work from sliding all over the place. So stop after flattening with the jointer.

Finally, I recommend you absolutely do not buy a new jack plane. Jack planes are roughing tools and it sounds like that is exactly what you are going to use it for if you are building a bench entirely by hand. For this purpose, it should have a wide mouth, a cambered iron and be capable of taking a thick shaving to bring stock to dimension quickly. It also does not need to be really flat to do this so buying a really expensive new jack plane is a waste in my mind. This is the perfect tool to buy used. Also, get a standard angle jack plane if you want to use it for rough planing, not a low angle. The iron will need less camber than a low angle model and the perceived versatility (which I really don't buy into anyway) is irrelevant in a roughing tool.

So there you have it:

Jointer - New
Smoother - New or Used based on how you perceive your time regarding tuning old tools
Jack - Absolutely Used

Again, take it for what it's worth ;)!

Edit: I see a lot of recommendations for a block plane. While a block plane may be useful for smaller projects in the future, it will be worthless for building your bench so I say skip it for now. You could even wait on the smoother until your bench is built. You'll need the jack and jointer only to build your bench.

Dave Spaeder
03-24-2009, 9:51 AM
A new bevel-up jack plane will give you a lot of flexibility and value. The used versions tend to be expensive enough that the newer versions by LV or LN are a good buy. Despite longstanding tool lore, they are ignorant of their designated purpose and can be set up to do rough or fine work, depending on what you need at the moment.

As others have said, the low-angle block plane is another place to buy new. A block plane may seem like it's too small for a bench-sized project, but unless you finish all your pieces a lot more perfectly than I do (and I'm willing to concede that most people probably do), you'll always be picking one up to do that last bit of adjustment.

After that, I'd try my luck with used bench planes, especially a jointer, either a 7 or an 8. Don't get too scared off by the tales of flattening these things. I've bought a few over the years and have used them without much beyond a mostly cosmetic tuning.

And remember that you might just want a couple of planes to get started right now, but over time, you'll almost inevitably end up with more. Have fun!

Thomas Crawford
03-24-2009, 12:22 PM
Thanks for all wisdom. I think I will need the block plane - I am putting in the sliding deadman and could use it with a guide to make the 1/2" chamfer, and the smaller chamfers for the legs.

I'm torn between a new jointer or new jack plane. A question that came to mind was whether I need a fence for jointing the edges of the long 2x4's. Are fences for the stanley's #7/8 readily available and do they work well?

Raney Nelson
03-24-2009, 12:32 PM
While I think the LV BU jack is the most versatile plane you mentioned, I personally would agree with Robert's post above. Out of all the planes you list, the hardest to find in very good condition is the jointer - and flatness counts there. Vintage smoothers, jacks, and block planes are relatively easy to find in very nice shape, and if they're 'off' they're not too hard to tune up. Flattening a jointer, though, is not just a lot of work: if you're not pretty well-versed in lapping, it's very easy to make the plane worse rather than better.

I am much more fond of bevel down planes myself, but the BU jointer from LV will do the job very well, and it's relatively inexpensive as new planes go... plus, if you decide you want it, the fence for it works quite well. (Vintage stanley fences, by the way, are not that readily available and will almost certainly cost you much more than the LV version).

The fence helps a lot in getting perfect square angles, but personally I'd recommend just doing it freehand and checking frequently with a square. Your ability to do this by 'feel' will develop pretty quickly, and that's a sense that will serve you in very good stead throughout your HT woodworking adventures.


Happy hunting!

Thomas Crawford
03-24-2009, 12:53 PM
OK, when I'm looking on "the auction site" there are a lot of planes listed without too much description - is there a resource or rule of thumb to follow so that I get a plane from the pre-wwII era?

Edit: nevermind, read the wisdom/faqs sticky. RTFM :)

Jim Koepke
03-24-2009, 1:23 PM
I'm torn between a new jointer or new jack plane. A question that came to mind was whether I need a fence for jointing the edges of the long 2x4's. Are fences for the stanley's #7/8 readily available and do they work well?

A fence is not needed. A good try square is needed. After using a plane and checking with a try square for a while, you will likely develop a knack for holding the plane square to the work.

What is likely of more concern for your work is a way to hold the wood you will be surfacing to make your bench. I have seen examples of a well mounted beam being used as a planing bench. It is basically a large, long hunk of wood with supports to hold wood while being planed.

Once you have done a few pieces, you will be able to look at the end and see if it is square or not. The eye becomes "calibrated" after awhile.

Before retirement, one of my assignments was to write a manual about the work I was doing. This is from a section of the manual where extra material was included. This is about training the eye. This piece was for spacers, but it can easily translate to other items for which the eyes can be calibrated.

Note: TTMs are what we worked on in our shop. TTM stands for Ticket Transport Mechanism. My employer was a public transit agency.

The Calibrated Eye
The purpose of this exercise is to train your eye to recognize small sizes for what they are.
To do this exercise one needs a lot of mixed spacing washers. The sizes found on our TTMs
are .001, .005, .010, .016, .030 and .040 with occasionally some other odd sizes.
A dial or digital caliper is also needed. Small containers or pieces of paper to separate the
washers into different piles are also needed.
With all the washers mixed in a pile, start measuring with the caliper. Look at the edge of each
one during the measuring process. Separate the washers into piles of washers that measure the
same. After a short time, look at the washer before measuring it and see if you know what it
will measure before it is put in to the caliper. Keep doing this until you get good.
Congratulations you now have calibrated your eyes. Recalibration may be needed if not used
on a regular basis.

jim

Jim Koepke
03-24-2009, 1:39 PM
OK, when I'm looking on "the auction site" there are a lot of planes listed without too much description - is there a resource or rule of thumb to follow so that I get a plane from the pre-wwII era?

Edit: nevermind, read the wisdom/faqs sticky. RTFM :)

Be sure to ask questions of the seller if you have doubts. Most of them will send more pictures if requested. Be cautious of the evasive folks and those who do not reply. I always try to check on what the seller has been selling to gauge their expertise with the items they are selling. Some may not know a knob from a tote or where to find a plane's mouth.

I once bought a plane for parts that had been broken and someone put brass plates on the side with screws to hold it together. It was clear in the pictures. The seller did not realize it was broken and thought it was in great shape. All the other parts were good. Even the brass plates have found a use in my shop.

Some of my best deals came from fuzzy pictures and people who just picked a plane up from a yard sale to sell on eBay. Some specialize in selling tools, some are just picking up all kinds of stuff to see if they can make a profit. Others are cleaning out the garage and just trying to get rid of stuff. Be patient and DON'T GET CAUGHT IN A BIDDING FRENZY. Deals are like trains, if you miss one, another will come along.

Often, a good deal can be had when the seller has poor pictures and short descriptions. If they answer your questions and others do not ask, then you might be the only bidder. Watch out for the shipping costs. A few sellers make that their way of getting the price they want without paying eBay a percentage of the bid.

Good luck,

jim

Thomas Crawford
03-24-2009, 1:53 PM
What is likely of more concern for your work is a way to hold the wood you will be surfacing to make your bench. I have seen examples of a well mounted beam being used as a planing bench. It is basically a large, long hunk of wood with supports to hold wood while being planed.

I have a bench I made 8 years ago. No vise, screwed together 2x4's for legs with 2x4 stretchers, and 2x4 apron. The top is 2 pieces of 3/4 plywood. The top is 2'x5' and it overhangs the legs by 1.5".

I think I can definitely get a planing stop configured onto one end and add some support for the longer boards. My main challenge is to somehow clamp to the front to do the edges - thinking about getting a piece of 2x6 and making it even with the top, then use my pipe clamps to secure the board to the front.

Raney Nelson
03-24-2009, 2:52 PM
OK, when I'm looking on "the auction site" there are a lot of planes listed without too much description - is there a resource or rule of thumb to follow so that I get a plane from the pre-wwII era?

Edit: nevermind, read the wisdom/faqs sticky. RTFM :)

I've found 'the auction site' to be less and less likely to yield good tools at good prices in recent years. You can certainly find very nice tools, but the prices are often very high; likewise, you can find very good prices, but with a capital 'caveat emptor' attached. Great tools at cheap prices are very hard to come by unless you really know what you're looking for, and how to ensure it's intact and workable. For the user buying his first batch of planes, I'd really advise against that site.

There are a couple of very good merchants of vintage tools who can help you find just what you want, and also help you figure out what it IS you want if you're not sure. Prices aren't steals, but they're very fair, and the 'risk' factor is removed. I don't think the TOS here allows me to post any, but if you need the contact information for one or two of these folks, PM me.

Justin Green
03-24-2009, 3:38 PM
Don't forget your local flea markets and antique stores will typically turn up at least one or two user planes at a reasonable price.

I agree with Raney's thoughts on auction sites. It's tougher to get a "steal" on older tools from the auction sites, because there are many, many times the buyers there. Increased demand equals higher prices.

That said... if you look for auctions ending on weekdays, short auctions, do various searches, etc., on the auction site, you will find a deal or two here and there. I think in the past 6 months, I've probably bid on 60 hand planes and have won about 5. Every now and again, you win one at a really nice price. Same goes for chisels, saws, etc.

When I built my bench, I used a scrub plane, a jointer, and a smoother. A jack plane would have worked in place of the scrub plane, but at the time I had a scrub plane and not a jack. The ends need some work, and I just bought a block plane from the auction-site-who's-name-will-not-be-mentioned to work on the ends of the bench. A little Stanley 18. I spent probably $150 acquiring bench planes 3-8 of the older Stanley vintage. That's 6 planes for an average price of $25. All needed cleaning and sharpening, and a couple needed flattening.

It's a sickness, though, once you sharpen your first plane and put it to work, it's too late.

David Keller NC
03-24-2009, 6:19 PM
Your plan for jointing the edges will work, though it's a pain to do two clamps at once. This is, by the way, how I built my first bench.

That said, I wanted to answer your specific question, which, if I understand it correctly, is "what plane do I absolutely have to have to build a Roubo bench"? That's a bit different than "what 3 planes should I start out with", which the majority of the answers on this thread seems to have addressed (not that those replies were bad advice, quite the contrary, just not specifically focused on the bench-build question).

So - what you absolutely must have if you're going to build an 8' long bench, you're new to using planes, and you want the benchtop to be reasonably flat, is a jointer, and the longest, baddest boy on the block - a #8. A jack or a fore plane would be very, very helpful, but is not necessary if you're working with pine 2X12s from Home Depot. A fore palne and a jack plane, by the way, can be configured to do the same thing (roughing), while a jack can also be configured to be a long smoothing plane or a very passable shooting board plane. Most of us own both - a dedicated fore plane (roughing) and a jack.

Finally, while I can't think of any neanderthal worth his animal skin jammies that would recommend against a block plane, you simply do not need one to build the bench. It would be useful to build the bench, but not necessary.

And, I noticed you did not ask the question "what tools do I need to build a Roubo bench entirely by hand?", which would mean a good deal more than just planes:

A 26" rip saw (critical)
A 20" cross-cut panel saw (critical)
A 12 or 14" tenon saw filed rip (critical)
A 12" carcasse saw filed crosscut (nice to have)
A 10" dovetail saw, filed rip (nice to have)

A 12" fixed square (critical - could substitute a 12" adjustable square)
A 3 or 4" fixed square (absolutely critical - and not an adjustable one!)

A small set of bench chisels - a 1/4", 3/8" 1/2" and 3/4" will get you by.

A marking/cutting guage (critical - buy the best you can afford, a lot of $$$ in wood will follow this tool - a inaccurate mark means a trip back to the Borg for more wood)

A brace/Bit combo - typically you'll need 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" and 1" auger-style bits.

That about does it except for vise hardware, knock-down hardware (if you go that route), and fasterners (if you use any).

Good Luck, and post pictures.

Thomas Crawford
03-24-2009, 8:31 PM
I've been looking for a used Disston ~20" crosscut saw. Since I'm using the Schwartz method I thought I could get by with that, although all the saws you listed are on my to-get list. He formed the tenons by different lengths of the 2x's glued up.

I own the 7-piece set of Crown butt chisels. Would like to supplement these eventually but hoping I can get by. If I need to get one premium chisel to hollow the mortises I can swing that.

12" & 4-6" try squares are on the list.

Brace/bit is on the list.

Cutting gauge is on the list.

And I think I'm actually going to wuss out and rip the 2x12's with a circular saw. Unless you all can convince this newbie to rip them by hand. I'm open to the idea - I think I can saw to the line for 8 feet :) I would have to rip (10) 2x10x10's and (3) 2x12x12's. So if there is enough support drummed up here I'll rip them by hand and post pictures and maybe even a video (of the later cuts when I figure out my system) just to prove it. Guess I'd also have to build some lower sawhorses. Yes I just turned 31 so I qualify as young and stupid. So let's hear anyone's arguments for ripping that amount of lumber by hand.

Justin Green
03-24-2009, 10:04 PM
I wouldn't think that you would need a premium chisel. Especially after watching Frank Klaus' video. Just make sure the ones you have are really sharp and they'll to fine for building a bench. I had a crappy set of used buck brothers chisels (not the old version) and they sharpened up just fine and cut just fine for working on the bench. I ordered a set of Marples blue handled chisels and I probably have a half day of work to get the set sharp, because they're not flat on the back.

I'm not going to try to convince you to rip 2x by hand, but did want to mention that if you have a jointer plane, you can easily clean up your cuts if you stray a bit. Just make sure that if you want a 3.5" top, you rip them a little wider than that so you'll have material to joint and then more material to remove when you flatten the bench top. I'm 32, so I'm not quite as young, but probably just as stupid if not more so.


It's nice to see others our age getting into this hobby and taking an interest in hand tools. This is a great site with great members who are extremely helpful and experienced. You will be addicted to the tools and this site before long.

David Keller NC
03-25-2009, 10:06 AM
"And I think I'm actually going to wuss out and rip the 2x12's with a circular saw. Unless you all can convince this newbie to rip them by hand."

I'm with Chris Schwarz in this case - ripping by hand is no fun, and it doesn't leave behind any tool marks or dimensional characteristics that show hand-tool use, because you're likely going to joint the sawn surfaces with a handplane anyway, whether you do it with a circular saw or a rip (hand) saw.

That said, I do use a hand saw to rip lumber for furniture, but only because the kind of furniture I build was built entirely with "cordless" hand tools, and I duplicate the methods for authenticity's sake.

While a good set of chisels (that will hold their edge) is always a worthwhile investment, you can get by just fine with the chisels you have. What I would instead spend your money on is a good way to sharpen them. The least expensive way to do this is to get a piece of salvaged float or thick tempered glass, preferably at least 12" long and 4" wide, some 400, 800, and 1200 grit wet dry sandpaper (you can also use aluminum oxide paper, you'll just need to stick it down with something like 3M #77 spray adhesive instead of water), and either a fine hard arkansas, 8000 grit Norton water stone, or a leather strop and honing compound to get your final edge. If you want to stick entirely with sandpaper, you can get very fine ceramic alumina paper from Lee Valley. There are, of course, lots of other ways to get a very sharp edge, and they're all good - just that some are more expensive and/or faster than what I've outlined (the "scary sharp" method).

BTW - I would highly recommend you spend some time cutting practice mortises with a drill and your bench chisels before you have to have it right on a leg of your bench. Paring mortises accurately after drilling isn't impossible, but it does take some practice.

Oh - And something I forgot to add to the list - you're going to need a marking knife. There's lots of superb ones out there by small makers, among them Blue Spruce Toolworks, Chester Toolworks, and Czech Edge Tool, but you can also grind the double-bevel off of a swiss army knife and re-hone a single bevel on it. Mostly, you just need a reasonably sturdy blade that's thin and not too long - about 2" in length.

Robert Trotter
03-25-2009, 11:36 AM
Hi Thomas,

Not sure if you have a plane or any planes yet or chisels etc or are still looking.

But I'll give you my two cents worth anyway.

Since your first project is going to be your bench, as a plane I would suggest the LV BU jointer (or any other good brand NEW plane) as a single plane. If you can afford it, then get a BU jack or BU smoother as a second plane. Get all three for a complete set if you can. Blades are interchangable and with multiple blades you a set for any kind of wood. With these three planes you can do practically anything. You don't have to have a FULL set of planes (though it would be nice:))

You are going to need a jointer plane for truing your top of your bench. The top of your bench is of course going to be what dictates the trueness of everything built on it. Get it right and everthing you do with your new bench will be much more pleasureable.

As a starter plane the jointer is still very usefull for doing other work. I have just built a small side table (about 12"x9" ??) and I used my jointer plane for a lot of the work on it. It seems a big plane but you can do some interesting things with it. It will keep you going until you get some more planes later.

Personally I would recommend getting new planes unless you actually want to do up an old plane. After spending time hunting around and then buying, say on a auction site, and paying shipping and then paying for the materials you need to bring an old plane up to par then you may not be that much cheaper than buying new anyway. ( and unless you are lucky, and talented, a LV or LN for that matter, will give you a better working experience) I know all the arguments for going for cheaper older planes and they are good arguments for people who want to spend their time fixing up old tools and giving them a new life, but consider the total costs. For me when I was starting out (no granite plates or materials and chemicals etc for renewing old tools) it was a matter of only a few dollars difference between new and old. If you can't afford an extra $10 or $20 (just a number - obviously more savings if not much work is needed or you have all the materials and equipment needed - also shipping for was a MAJOR factor; it may not be for you) then you are probably not in the right hobby.

I think that a $15 plane from an auction is not a $15 plane. Add shipping, and materials and especially time and it could end up costing you a lot more. Obviously if your long term goals is to gather a complete set of old planes, then you don't have to buy all the materials for bringing the old planes up to par each time. It is cheaper then. Me, I want to make things, not repair things. My motto is to buy the best I can afford and if I can't afford it at the time, then I wait and get by with what I have. But of course everyone has different circumstances so I hope my comments will merely give some food for thought and help you decide which is best for you.


Now for your bench, a plane is only one tool. Saws and chisels are also important.

It sounds like you have an electric saw for ripping your boards so I would not bother ripping them by hand (unless YOU really want to do everything by hand AND you have a hand saw for ripping the wood). If you have to get a saw for ripping by hand, save you money and put it into chisels or planes.

You will need a tennon saw but a for the scale for your bench, you porbably can get by with panel saws only ( if that is what you have) and some clean-up work with a chisel.

Chisels- When I built my bench I had exactly two chisels. 9mm and 21mm. (sorry about metric). No problem. Basically I used the 21mm for everything. The point is, you don't need a whole set. YET, that is. But one project at a time.

As far as planing edges of boards- it sounds like you will be using 2x stuff so you don't actually have to clamp the boards at all. I simply used an end stop and some battens (for one side) for planing. 2x stock will stand up by itself no worries. When I built my bench I actually used the materials for the bench as a make shift bench. I didn't have a bench; just a work mate.

Ok there is my 2 cents worth. Actually it probably a bit more than 2 cents but ....

I hope it is helpfull for YOU to decide on what YOU want to do.

Rob

James Owen
03-26-2009, 6:29 PM
I've been looking for a used Disston ~20" crosscut saw. Since I'm using the Schwartz method I thought I could get by with that, although all the saws you listed are on my to-get list. He formed the tenons by different lengths of the 2x's glued up....

And I think I'm actually going to wuss out and rip the 2x12's with a circular saw. Unless you all can convince this newbie to rip them by hand. I'm open to the idea - I think I can saw to the line for 8 feet :) I would have to rip (10) 2x10x10's and (3) 2x12x12's. So if there is enough support drummed up here I'll rip them by hand and post pictures and maybe even a video (of the later cuts when I figure out my system) just to prove it. Guess I'd also have to build some lower sawhorses. Yes I just turned 31 so I qualify as young and stupid. So let's hear anyone's arguments for ripping that amount of lumber by hand.

If you're gonna build it completely by hand, then you have to rip those 2 x 12s with a hand saw....

Besides, it's a good upper-body work out.

(And if you want a really good time, try ripping 8' long 8/4 red oak with a ryobi...... I'm 51 and probably as dumb as they come.....:D)

Danny Thompson
03-26-2009, 6:57 PM
LV bevel-up Jointer
Stanley #4, Type 11

Thomas Crawford
03-29-2009, 7:49 PM
I've got stanley #5 and #7 coming in this week. I felt like I wanted to at least give those two a shot. If the #7 needs more work than I think I can do I'll just set it aside until I can and go ahead and buy a new jointer. I may or may not upgrade the blade in these.

About to buy the LV LA Block plane w/chamfer guide, some waterstones, try squares, wheel marking gauge. I have one of those 9x12" granite stones from woodcraft so I'm planning on using that with sandpaper to flatten the waterstones.

Hopefully adding a used crosscut saw (24-26" long, Disston or whatever).

Rip and crosscut tenon/carcass saws - thinking about new.

Brace and bits after that and I think I can start.

By the way, SYP pine is really cheap here, I think the whole bench structure (top, legs, stretchers) will run me less than $90.

Now I just have to finish flooring the attic above the garage and I'll have room to start :)

David Keller NC
03-30-2009, 9:35 AM
Thomas - Not sure where "here" is, but $90 for all of the SYP you need to build a bench is really, really cheap, even for the South.

While you're waiting on your tools to arrive, and if you have room, I highly recommend getting your wood and stacking/stickering and weighting it either inside your garage/shop, or under cover outside. SYP is always quite wet, and it'll be a whole lot less frustrating if you let it come to equilibrium and dry out a bit for several weeks before you use it.

Thomas Crawford
03-30-2009, 12:02 PM
Hi David,

Can the boards really come to equilibrium in my garage? Spring in Texas (Austin) means one day it is raining, high humidity for a few days, and then maybe a cool front will cause humidity in the 15-20% range. I'll be honest in that I'm not quite sure how wood works that way. Any advice/book/article recommendations?

David Keller NC
03-30-2009, 12:55 PM
Thomas - ordinarily, I'd say that your garage environment is going to make it difficult for kiln-dried hardwoods to come to equilibrium and stop moving, so when building furniture you'll have to be quick about getting your pieces prepped and assembled into the final piece to prevent warping/twisting.

However, we're not talking kiln-dried hardwoods here. SYP (by the way - don't do this with treated, make sure you've untreated SYP) is supplied as construction lumber, and it's very wet - in the 15-20% moisture content range. So it will dry significantly in your garage environment, and will definitely be less frustrating to deal with than material straight from the Borg.

But you must stack and sticker it properly. That means finding a level place on your garage floor (within reason - we're not talking tolerances in the thousandths here), putting down a piece of painter's plastic to isolate the stack from the moist concrete, placing straight sticks (could be off-cuts from some of the SYP) on the plastic at 4 foot intervals (perpendicular to the long length of the boards), then stacking one layer of boards, placing more stickers directly over the ones below, another layer of boards, etc..,

On the top of the stack, weigh it down with whatever you have that's heavy. Old car batteries work well, and if you've nothing else, fill 20 or 30 gallon plastic milk jugs and use them (they weigh about 8.5 lbs. when full).

Leave this for at least 2-3 weeks, 4-6 weeks would be even better. If you get impatient, you can certainly pull boards off of the top as you work them, and leave the rest in the stack.

For SYP construction lumber, this is well worth doing.