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george wilson
03-25-2009, 6:13 PM
This plane is a full size plane,dovetailed together. It was made in the 70's,probably I made it about 1975. It is,like the other planes shown,practically all hand work.The dovetails have to be curved to fit around the sole. Once again,the cap screw is freehand turned,and the knurling is actually not knurled,but is freehand filed in. It is stuffed with mahogany,stained rather too dark,I think. I made a special tap to do the old style threads on the cap screw.

Jim Koepke
03-25-2009, 10:23 PM
Beautiful work you have done. Thanks for showing us.

What exactly is meant by free hand turning the threads for the cap screws?

jim

george wilson
03-25-2009, 10:27 PM
Hi,Jim. I used hand held small turning tools like on a wood lathe to make the contours,and the little ball. It's about the only way I could do it for contours that small,and undercut. You can turn brass,and even steel by hand. I make spinning chucks like that,even large ones. I rough it out in the metal lathe with the usual metal lathe cutters,then use hand tools on the rounded contours of spinning chucks. I made the tooling for most of the PGA trophies since the 80's.

You know,I'm tired. I did not see "threading" in your sentence. I turned the contours in the top of the cap freehand.I made a special tap out of drill rod to thread the hole in the cap. The male threads were made on the lathe to match.

Clay Thigpen
03-25-2009, 11:32 PM
I love the tote, it's so fluid and graceful. You do some very skilled work. It really shows you what craftsmen can make. I'm glad to see things like this popping back up today.

Derek Cohen
03-26-2009, 12:16 AM
Hi George

That is indeed a graceful profile. I like the way that you have flowed the sides at the front into the infill. I do not recall seeing one like that before. Without that detail it would be a traditional Spier shape. But with it there is a uniqueness.

Beautiful execution.

Regards from Perth

Derek

george wilson
03-26-2009, 9:33 AM
I like the charm of the old work,but also don't really like to copy,so try to take an idea and expand upon it sometimes. I was paid to copy for years,and sometimes,like the Grove backsaws,like them too much to alter-though I did add brass and curly maple,and color the handles. Glad you enjoyed it,Derek.

David Weaver
02-01-2012, 10:14 AM
Perhaps the little nugget of goodness that's hard to see in this plane is the workmanship on the second iron and the lever cap, straight on. They are hidden by the cheeks of the plane, as is the detail on the top of the lever cap screw.

What I can see of the lever cap, it's tidy and retained by the crossbar/pin instead of held to the sides by screws. It looks really nice.

Brass bed, too. Held on by the infill?

george wilson
02-01-2012, 10:23 AM
Here is a slide I dug up of this plane when it was brand new. Not as clear a picture,being from a 400 speed slide. The brown tempering color was left on the blade.

The cap screw of this plane was not knurled. At the time this plane was made,I had no microscope type knurls. Besides,the serrated cap is 1/2" thick. I filed the "knurls" in by hand.

The bevels on the iron were filed in by hand.

The blade rests upon a 1/4" thick plate of brass,rather than upon the wood.

I was not happy with the appearance of the stain I put on the mahogany. This plane was made when I was just getting into making infill planes. Live and learn.

David Weaver
02-01-2012, 10:49 AM
Ahh, so the lever cap is retrained by screws. I thought maybe it was the type that held itself against a crosspin.

Where did the files come from to work the cap screw, gunsmith supply stuff? Vintage needle files?

george wilson
02-01-2012, 11:00 AM
I used checkering files from Brownell's Gunsmith supply. They aren't the cheapest files out there,but certainly are useful. They go from something like 16 lines per inch,to 75 lines per inch. They are really for checkering metal. The checkering is done by filing a set of grooves,then filing another set at an angle to the first set.

The trick when doing the lever cap was to make sure that the checkering file was used at exactly the same angle (90º) every time,or there would be messy "cross threading" where the individual sections of filing meet.

This picture makes the plane iron's tempering color look all streaky,but it is not in real life. I doubt that anyone could produce streaky tempering colors if he tried!!

Klaus Kretschmar
02-01-2012, 5:47 PM
You are tempting me, George! The infill smoother you show has some special features. Why did you add a brass plate to the bed of the iron? Did you feel the blade support of the rear infill not high enough or is there another reason? What I do like especially on this plane is the "organic" shape of the infills. The tote is growing out of the infill without the smallest design break. Nice!

I've a similarly shaped vintage infill body of cast bronze. It had no tote. Derek made a similar one with a tote. Having seen yours and Dereks, I think mine hast to get new infills and a tote as well. It takes time however since the last 3 weeks and the following two, I'm wearing a cast at the left arm. I've broken my wrist...

Klaus

george wilson
02-01-2012, 8:21 PM
Ouch!!! I'll bet that hurts!. I put a brass plate behind the iron to give it a more massive backing. And,it looks nicer than just having the wood for backing. Sorry about your wrist.

Chris Griggs
02-01-2012, 8:47 PM
This making me want to try my hand at an infill plane maing. Quick someone remind me how much work it is before I blow my tax return on raw materials that I will most certainly end up turning into trash.

George, I really like the shape and hang, for lack of a better term, on the tote. It's not only gorgeous but seems like it would really facilitate both forward and downward pressure and be very comfortable to use.

george wilson
02-01-2012, 10:37 PM
Chris,it isn't really necessary to spend much money making an infill plane. I have either gotten my metal for the bodies as leftovers,or at the salvage yard. We have a decent amount of manufacturing in the area,and I have picked up nice pieces of steel plate of all thicknesses left over from punch press work. You have to buy tool steel for the blade,and wood for the infill. The 01 for a blade is about $8.00 or a little more per blade,plus postage. You don't have to use costly,exotic woods for the infill. Walnut makes a perfectly good infill material. So does cherry or maple(which you might want to stain). I have a Norris jack plane that is stuffed with beech,and given a TOO thick,dark lacquer piano finish that has led to cracking of the finish over the years. It is a late model with the single screw adjustment. I find the single screw model is better than the too delicate screw within a screw which was used earlier,and which,for some reason actually increased the amount of blade movement per a given amount of turning of the knob. Anyway,the point is,even Norris used a very basic,cheap wood on some of their models.

The most important thing about making a tool,provided it works well,etc.,is the design work that can be put into it. If you use a good steel for the blade,and a good,hard wood,you can make something very nice if you can design it well.

Chris Griggs
02-02-2012, 7:30 AM
I'm not sure why I'm entertaining this idea since I'm about to build two saws and have a couple small furniture projects, but.....

Whats the simplest type of infill to start with in both plane type, construction type, and time required to complete? I imagine a small smoother similar to one of the little Brese Planes (http://www.breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html) wouldn't be to tough or too much material???

What about a miter plane? I'd really love to build one of these so I can cross the LN No9 of my wish list. I imagine actual construction wouldn't be the toughest but I'm guessing getting it dead square could be a lot of work?

Are there any books out there on building infills?

For infill, yeah, I'd just use walnut or cherry, good to know those would work as I don't have any particular interest in exotics. Love me some walnut!

Jerome Hanby
02-02-2012, 7:40 AM
Shoulder plane is pretty simple. They did one in Shopnotes. It had the sides dovetailed to the sole. Used a 3/4" Clifton 400 blade IIRC. Has a nifty blade advance mechanism too.


I'm not sure why I'm entertaining this idea since I'm about to build two saws and have a couple small furniture projects, but.....

Whats the simplest type of infill to start with in both plane type, construction type, and time required to complete? I imagine a small smoother similar to one of the little Brese Planes (http://www.breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html) wouldn't be to tough or too much material???

What about a miter plane? I'd really love to build one of these so I can cross the LN No9 of my wish list. I imagine actual construction wouldn't be the toughest but I'm guessing getting it dead square could be a lot of work?

Are there any books out there on building infills?

For infill, yeah, I'd just use walnut or cherry, good to know those would work as I don't have any particular interest in exotics. Love me some walnut!

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 8:05 AM
I'm not sure why I'm entertaining this idea since I'm about to build two saws and have a couple small furniture projects, but.....

Whats the simplest type of infill to start with in both plane type, construction type, and time required to complete? I imagine a small smoother similar to one of the little Brese Planes (http://www.breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html) wouldn't be to tough or too much material???

What about a miter plane? I'd really love to build one of these so I can cross the LN No9 of my wish list. I imagine actual construction wouldn't be the toughest but I'm guessing getting it dead square could be a lot of work?

Are there any books out there on building infills?

For infill, yeah, I'd just use walnut or cherry, good to know those would work as I don't have any particular interest in exotics. Love me some walnut!

Build a smallish one that looks like holtey's short no-tote smoother, or Brese's small no-tote smoother.

The lines on the metal are mostly straight, and the metal itself is a lot smaller. The plane you're left with is useful, too.

The amount of metalwork in my 2" smoother vs. the small plane that I did first is at least a factor of three. It was like a workout shift. Do a side of comb cutting, get completely sweated up. Then after the four sets of comb cuts are done, file everything to the marking lines - also heavy work. And then filing the sides to shape and fitting/trimming the curves of the infill...all a lot of physical or tedious work. Much easier to start off with a plane where most of the metalwork is smaller and straight.

But you'll be shocked at what a 1 1/2" iron plane like that will bull through (plus it'll be next to impossible to get tearout of any significance with it).

Chris Griggs
02-02-2012, 8:06 AM
Shoulder plane is pretty simple. They did one in Shopnotes. It had the sides dovetailed to the sole. Used a 3/4" Clifton 400 blade IIRC. Has a nifty blade advance mechanism too.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. I actually have the article printed out somewhere. I have the little LN infill, but I could use a large shoulder plane. If nothing else it might be able to use that article as guidance for building another type of plane if I want. Ugg! I really shouldn't start another project right now... guess it doesn't hurt to plan ahead.

Chris Griggs
02-02-2012, 8:14 AM
Build a smallish one that looks like holtey's short no-tote smoother, or Brese's small no-tote smoother.

The lines on the metal are mostly straight, and the metal itself is a lot smaller. The plane you're left with is useful, too.

The amount of metalwork in my 2" smoother vs. the small plane that I did first is at least a factor of three. It was like a workout shift. Do a side of comb cutting, get completely sweated up. Then after the four sets of comb cuts are done, file everything to the marking lines - also heavy work. And then filing the sides to shape and fitting/trimming the curves of the infill...all a lot of physical or tedious work. Much easier to start off with a plane where most of the metalwork is smaller and straight.

But you'll be shocked at what a 1 1/2" iron plane like that will bull through (plus it'll be next to impossible to get tearout of any significance with it).

Dave, I didn't understand half that. Don't know what the combs or comb-cutting is.... but I think I got the point. Curvy coffin sides and side wings = LOTS OF SWEAT. Straight sides = MUCH less work.

I could use a little 50-55 degress bedded 1 1/2-1 3/4 smoother for curly cherry, maple or flame birch. Nothing I work is crazy difficult, but even working slighly curly cherry it would sometimes be nice to have a little plane like that. LABP handles that work for now, but I prefer to keep it set up as a low angle plane.

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 9:04 AM
Comb cutting is just a way to remove waste in something like tool steel.

AS the straight lines, not so much an issue of bent sides vs. straight sides like that (I've not built a plane with bent sides), but even curves on the sides like those on the cheeks of a spiers panel plane. If you are using hand tools, removing metal to get those curves and then cleaning them up with hand tools will take hours and hours. With the little smoothers with straight sides and straight tops of the sides, you avoid all of that for the first plane. You may crack something in peining or have a void or something that don't like in your first plane (that doesn't affect functioning), but your second plane will be 10 times better in fit, ease of fit and around the mouth, etc. It's nice to make those mistakes on a small easy plane and still have a functional tool.

george wilson
02-02-2012, 9:21 AM
Yes,a curved side smoother is a lot trickier to fit. Since I always do everything the hard way,I think the curved side smoother pictured here was my first smoother. Comb cutting is when you want to get rid of the metal between dovetails,you saw a series of vertical cuts close together where you want the metal gone. Then,it is much easier to file the remaining "comb teeth" away,and leave the dovetail sticking up.

Chris Griggs
02-02-2012, 9:25 AM
Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification guys. So it's like kerfing the waste section of something wood to make it easier to knock out with a chisel.

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 9:38 AM
Right, and if it's tool steel, you can usually bend it one way with a chisel and it'll break off as soon as you strike it the other way. It makes cutting tool steel tolerable whereas filing out 3/16th or 1/4th inch tool steel would not be tolerable (to me).

george wilson
02-02-2012, 10:00 AM
I'm not sure how Ron attached the steel sole to the brass sides. There is no dovetailing,pins,or other joints to be seen. Dovetails of steel and brass are VERY easy to spot. I'm wondering if he silver soldered the steel sole to the brass sides? Maybe he will chime in.

Some perfectly good planes have been made by silver soldering them together. Years ago,Jay Gaynor had a little plane making operation where they soldered the steel soles onto brass sides. I wish I'd bought one. They were quite impeccably made. And not unreasonably expensive.

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 10:07 AM
He puts them on with screws that are either epoxied or loc-tite affixed, and then peins the heads of thes crews and cuts them flush as far as I know.

Much like Holtey does on a couple of his planes.

Chris Griggs
02-02-2012, 10:17 AM
What kind of steel is used for the soles and sides of infills?

Jerome Hanby
02-02-2012, 10:22 AM
What kind of steel is used for the soles and sides of infills?

For the Shopnotes shoulder plane, the parts list says 3/16" low-carbon steel stock...

george wilson
02-02-2012, 10:24 AM
David likes to use precision ground O1 steel. I just use thick mild steel with a clean,cold rolled finish that I can find at the salvage yards. I have also used "black iron" which is a soft,low carbon mild steel with a black,hot rolled finish. That black finish is VERY hard,though,and is work to sand it off.

Chris Griggs
02-02-2012, 10:24 AM
For the Shopnotes shoulder plane, the parts list says 3/16" low-carbon steel stock...

Cool Thanks!

Mike Allen1010
02-02-2012, 10:26 AM
I've been following this thread with great interest.

Like Chris, I'm intrigued by the promise of great performance possible with the design advantages of infills (mass, fixed high angle frog, narrow mouth, etc).

However, I know nothing about metal working (had the same questions as Chris about the terminology you were using David). I just finished a kit with cast plane body (St. James bay), didn't really have any instructions and the whole build was really flying by the seat of my pants.

I'm tempted to try dovetailing a straight sided simple smoother like the small Bresse you suggested David.

It would really help to have some referrence for instruction in the basic metal working technique/tools needed. I'm starting from zero (have a few files and a drill press), and I could surely use something to help accelerate my learning curve - any suggestions?

I'm interested to know:

1) what are the tools required and "nice to have"?

2) what kind/thickness of steel do I need for sides, sole and other parts?

3) how long would it take to build (I would buy a blade from Hock)?

I appreciate any and all intell, advice and suggestions!

Thanks, Mike

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 10:33 AM
I definitely like peining softer stock together better than tool steel.

But the tool steel is easy to comb cut (and the waste comb teeth breaks off very easily) and file (it doesn't pin any files). It is more agreeable on a hand lap (the shepherd panel kit with a low carbon bottom was a bear to lap by hand, and the lapping is a good bit of work because your bottom will have minor undulations in it from the peining, that while very little in depth, they may be several thousandths or a hundredth to the deepest mark that you need to lap off. That's a lot of work - several hard sessions worth just for one bottom.

Not that tool steel is that easy to lap, but it is a little easier to finish by hand because it isn't as gummy.

Tool steel is more expensive though, and it's definitely hard on hacksaw blades when you're comb cutting - and you'll want to skew the blades in your favor in terms of tooth size as much as possible (the 18 tpi blades don't have the obnoxious wavy toothline that the 24 and 32 TPI blades do, but on a 1/8th sheet of 01, those 18 tpi blades will have teeth pinging off the saw if you use any pressure. I can't remember how fast they were ruined on 3/16th or 1/4th.

If I ever get moving again on the next kit sides, they're from st james bay tool co, and when I was filing the rough cut sides to fit (they were pretty nicely done and that filing was pretty easy), I got the sense looking at the metal that it has a powdery consistency. I don't know why it's like that, but it works easy and wasn't as gummy as the mild steel shepherd used.

I don't really know anything about mild steel. Both the shepherd and st. james bay steel came with a dark layer, but they were pretty clean and flat.

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 10:46 AM
I'm interested to know:

1) what are the tools required and "nice to have"?

2) what kind/thickness of steel do I need for sides, sole and other parts?

3) how long would it take to build (I would buy a blade from Hock)?

I appreciate any and all intell, advice and suggestions!

Thanks, Mike

I'd say a brese type plane, but perhaps not quite as nicely finished as Rons - took me about 25 hours, but it was enjoyable work. I bought the blade from Ron Hock (a 3/16th thick 5 inch long usa made blade - not something he normally stocks, but I would as him if he has more). At the time, i didn't have enough heat to heat treat a blade like that, and raney suggested i buy one, anyway. I'd say that's probably a good idea, but if you ever had to make one, you can just get 1 1/2" precision ground O1 and a weed torch for propane and do one of these much more easily than you can make a bench plane iron.

Anyway, the tools i had:
* a good quality solid spine hacksaw. You want a lot of tension.
* 18 tpi hacksaw blades - HSS
* a small simonds round file (for the lever cap)
* a safe edged 8" and 6" mill file (where you have ground the file teeth off of one of the edges (you can buy a pillar file, too, it'll be much nicer, but cost more)
* either a swiss barrette file, or a few triangular saw files to mangle so that you grind off the parts of them you don't want cutting steel. I didn't have any good swiss files for my first two planes, and it made no difference in the quality of the results as long as I thought about how I wanted to remove or leave cutting ability on different parts of the files I have.
* a belt or disc sander of some sort
* a long glass lap to lap the plane sides and bottom (should be able to get this for about $20 as long as you have a flat surface to put it on)
* a sharp carbide scribe (like a $5 one from mcmaster or wherever)
* a decent accurate square
* blue or red dykem - every scribe line should be made in dykem so you can actually see it, until you learn where you won't need it. You definitely don't want to be filing with an overhead light source and realize you're not sure you can see your scribe line below the file.
* a decent machinst vice with aluminum angle safe jaws
* a ball-pein hammer or two (the HF ones work fine, even though the head will come loose within a few planes - they're only like $4 or something)
* something for a plane being peined to rest on (a good dry locust or oak log stood on end might be fine). I used the back of my machinst vise, but have since gotten an anvil. I haven't used the anvil yet. I wouldn't go buying an anvil to do this, it's not necessary and no good flat anvils are cheap unless you're in the right place at the right time.
* a cheap tapered reamer (grizzy has a junker for about $5, you'll ruin it using it on steel, but who cares...it'll get the job done).

I didn't have a drill press for any of the planes i've made so far, but now I have one. I cut the mouths by ruining some cheap drill bits from HF (like a pack of ten 1/4" bits) - drilling holes close to each other with a hand drill and then levering the bit to side cut.

A lot of the above sounds like more or worse than it is.

I also got a cheap import optical center punch to make marks. It's not mandatory to get one of those, but it's nice.

Ron Brese
02-02-2012, 11:04 AM
My process has evolved quite a bit and I now employ the use of threaded fasteners and taper pins. Looks fairly simple on the surface, however when you consider how many points have to be located quite accurately multiple times there is a lot more than meets the eye. To do it with any efficiency and accuracy you must understand the process thoroughly and be tooled properly for the work.

Ron

David Weaver
02-02-2012, 11:23 AM
As in, don't even think about it with a drill press and some hand threading tools and hardware screws.

Dovetails or straight pins with secondary bevels are still tops for those with limited tools, where the ability to fit parts one at a time despite some inaccuracy on the build up to that point is possible (but something like holding, drilling and tapping stuff at 90 degrees accurately just isn't going to happen).

It'd be a bear to try to do that by hand, and would require at least oversizing the holes in the side of the plane and trying to pein in the gaps later - almost certainly would result in cracks.