PDA

View Full Version : A pair of early 19th.C. saws



george wilson
03-25-2009, 9:13 PM
These saws are copies of my 2 favorite Grove saws,which I was lucky to find several years apart. The larger one had a big curve in the blade,but I jerked it straight.(I mean the original). They had steel backs and beechwood handles,though. I think the closed handle they used is one of the most artistic I've ever seen. The open one is,too,but not as unique as the closed one. The old handle has some nice details,though,which I included.

I have said I don't like to copy,but some things are just so nice that they have to be copied.Now,you see,I have them,but in new condition! Some other time,I'll post both the originals and copys together.

These have faceted backs of 260 brass,and cast screws of the same. The backs were folded,then freehand ground on the belt grinder to get the facets. I left the blades blue.The dovetail saw is .015" thick,as is the original. It cuts to a very thin line,and makes very accurate work easier.

Jameel Abraham
03-25-2009, 9:44 PM
It's such a pleasure to look at fine work...

Rick Mellin
03-25-2009, 10:31 PM
Those are absolutely beautiful, great job.

Brian Kent
03-25-2009, 11:10 PM
Beautiful wood and beautiful work. Why do these two saws have such radically different handle angles? Different work positions for different jobs?

george wilson
03-25-2009, 11:11 PM
The originals were thus. I must photograph the old with the new copies.

Clay Thigpen
03-26-2009, 12:00 AM
If I had 2 saws like that in my shop I don't think I'd get any work done, I'd spend all my time trying to decide which one I wanted to use. I'll be the first to say that I know very little about the different saw makers that have existed in the past but I had never heard of Grove. That's closed Handel IS very artistic I love the tongue on it.

Ray Gardiner
03-26-2009, 6:31 AM
Hi George,

Beautiful work, I really like those early Richard Groves handle patterns. I like the way you've done the faceting on the folded brass backs, that treatment gives it a look that's a bit reminiscent of slit brass backs. A good comparison to make would be to compare with the Lie Nielsen DT saw, since it is also based on the Groves handle pattern and uses curly maple.

I note that you used cast screws, I'm intrigued, did you cast them yourself?

Regards
Ray

Tony Zaffuto
03-26-2009, 8:47 AM
George,

As the others have said, those saws are drop dead gorgeous!

Question: In your opinion, did the 18th and 19th century sawsmiths put as much effort into the aesthetics of saws as the modern makers do?

Thanks,

Tony

Ken Werner
03-26-2009, 9:01 AM
Wow George. Wow. Thanks for the inspiration.

george wilson
03-26-2009, 9:20 AM
Tony,I am sure the clientele was more used to high quality,and the makers were too,and had to compete with each other. Artistic standards were simply higher at the time in most things. Today,technological standards prevail. Electronics can do amazing things,but design is suffering. Maybe that is a reason why "retro" designing is popular.

Gary Herrmann
03-26-2009, 9:21 AM
Wow. Tools as art.

george wilson
03-26-2009, 9:37 AM
Thanks,Gary. I am glad you liked them.Personally,I regard planes as the "king" of tools,because,as a designer,I can do so much more with them. They are more 3 dimensional,and have more parts do deal with to create an overall harmonius blend of features. On a saw,the handle is mostly what you have to expound upon.

Jim Kountz
03-26-2009, 10:47 AM
George your work is just ridiculous!! They just keep getting better and better. If a saw of that quality could be bought somewhere I cant imagine what the price would be!! Well worth it though Im sure of that.

Zahid Naqvi
03-26-2009, 10:51 AM
George, I too have enjoyed seeing all the planes and saws you have posted recently. Most of them are now linked to the FAQs sticky at the top of the forum.

george wilson
03-26-2009, 11:34 AM
Zahid,that was very kind of you. The trouble with these threads is that they soon vanish as more posts are added. There will be more,and much better work to see,once I figure out how to get photos from the scanner into the Mac. Also,I need to get some of my slides onto a disc. Then,I have to take more photos so I can reduce their file size,because they exceed the forums limit.

Derek Cohen
03-26-2009, 12:05 PM
Hi George

Ray's comment about the Groves tote was similar to my thought, so I have here a comparison of three saws that use the Groves as a model: yours, the IT (lower saw of the two added) and the LN (both saws of mine) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Combineddovetailsaws.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

george wilson
03-26-2009, 12:34 PM
Derek,thanks for posting the LN saw comparison. On my Groves saw,right at the end of the brass back,there is a little"turn in" that is pretty small,but can be made out in the picture. Also,on mine,the rounding of the handle is more extreme,becoming more like half of an ellipse,rather than half of a circle,if you see what I mean.This results in the flat surfaces of the handle being smaller,but definitely and crisply terminated,like the LN's are.The angles of my saw's cheeks,or boss are also steeper,and the little pip at the top of the handle is more distinct-a bit taller. These features I copied accurately from the original.

I think my Groves saws are pretty early. I haven't made a study of their history,but I wonder if the LN's model was from a later saw?

Derek Cohen
03-27-2009, 12:06 AM
Hi George

I guessing, but it sounds like the handle/tote of the IT is much closer to that on your saw. It is much rounder than the LN. I imagine that this reflects that the IT is hand shaped and the LN is probably CNC shaped. As you know, the IT became the LN.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws_html_76c57418.jpg

As to the vintage of the Grove design that inspired the IT handle, well I guess we would have to ask Pete Taran and Patrick Leach. My understanding is that the original was circa 1830.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


Regards from Perth

Derek

Berl Mendenhall
03-27-2009, 7:24 AM
That's a stunning piece of work. I, like George and probably most here, think the plane is the most beautiful and king of tools. After seeing this saw, the gap just got a whole lot closer. Please allow me to ramble a bit here. In making violins everything is carved except the ribs (they're bent). When an less experienced maker carves a violin scroll it still looks like a violin scroll. Some can even have a certain folk art charm to them. But when compared to a Master maker it's day and night difference. It's all the little subtle things, the crispness to the carving, the attention to all details that separate them. This saw has all that.

I can't get enough of these tools. Between George, Jameel, Derek, and many others here. You guys have me checking this forum several times a day. Thanks.

Berl

george wilson
03-27-2009, 9:23 AM
I must post pictures of both my new copies,and the original saws. The weather has been dark here. Maybe today will be better.I like to not use flash if possible.I like the IT saw best,Derek,overall,but it could use a bigger bevel around the bottom of the boss(cheek).The LN is better there.

Derek Cohen
03-27-2009, 9:52 AM
George and all

Another picture - I knew I had one of an original Groves. Here it is with the LN (just the way I saved it. Not meant as a comparison) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LNandGrovesdovetailsaws.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Matt Z Wilson
03-27-2009, 11:23 AM
The close handled saw might be one of the prettiest handles I've ever seen.

george wilson
03-27-2009, 12:55 PM
I just photographed my old and new saws for comparison,but the freshly charged camera battery died,after a few pictures. I have discovered that I must have gussied up the open handle just a bit,and had forgotten. I may have seen the little"turn back" near the brass back in Duncan Phyfe's tool chest. Will post when I can.

george wilson
05-06-2010, 3:59 PM
A re post of this thread for the person who says he can't access the FAQ section.

Caleb Larru
05-06-2010, 4:58 PM
These saws are copies of my 2 favorite Grove saws,which I was lucky to find several years apart. The larger one had a big curve in the blade,but I jerked it straight.(I mean the original). They had steel backs and beechwood handles,though. I think the closed handle they used is one of the most artistic I've ever seen. The open one is,too,but not as unique as the closed one. The old handle has some nice details,though,which I included.

I have said I don't like to copy,but some things are just so nice that they have to be copied.Now,you see,I have them,but in new condition! Some other time,I'll post both the originals and copys together.

These have faceted backs of 260 brass,and cast screws of the same. The backs were folded,then freehand ground on the belt grinder to get the facets. I left the blades blue.The dovetail saw is .015" thick,as is the original. It cuts to a very thin line,and makes very accurate work easier.


PM sent! I can't believe no one jumped on these yet.....darn, its the wrong forum.

george wilson
05-06-2010, 8:39 PM
Caleb,if you sent a PM,I haven't gotten it.

Bryce Adams
05-07-2010, 6:59 AM
Inspiring work George. Would you explain how you go about folding the brass backs? I'd like to make a backsaw from scratch, but coming up with a home brewed method for folding the brass seems difficult.

Thanks,

george wilson
05-07-2010, 9:34 AM
Bryce,I had made a special "crimping" press for starting backs. It was long enough to hold the largest backs we needed. It had a "V" groove in it about 1/2" wide,and a V shaped blade that rode on vertical tracks which would descend into the bottom groove. I made a wide press with 2- 30 ton bottle jacks (overkill,I know,but I had other uses for the jacks). the V groove attachment would sit on the wide lower jaw of the press,and squeeze the saw back as the press was forced closed.

This isn't helping you much,I know. We did anneal the saw back brass a couple of times while folding. The brass would tear apart during the fold if we didn't keep annealing it.

The V groove folder would fold the backs to a 45 degree angle. We annealed the back again,and place the half folded back in its edge between the plain,flat jaws of the press so that the press would squeeze the back down flat. The backs had to be placed so that the V was exactly "on edge". If not,and the pre folded back was just laying flat on one side against the lower jaw,the top half of the back would be folded into an arc.

I made every effort to fold the backs as cleanly,and as defect free as possible to avoid a lot of hand belt grinding afterwards,and to make sure that the blades were clenched very straight into the backs,with no waves at all.

WE FOLDED the slit until it was THINNER than the thickness of the blade,then tapped the backs over the blades to grip them. The top edge of the blades were filed clean of any burrs incurred in shearing them out on a sheet metal shear. Cutting the spring tempered steel in the shear did not hurt the shear blade.

Some modern makers saw a slit in their backs,but I avoided this because the originals were not slit.

I am not sure how the original backs were made. They could have been cast into a V shape,and carefully hammered down to grip the blades. I don't know.

Maybe Mike Wenzloff could share some info. with you. I've been told he slits his backs,but can fold them if requested. I could be wrong.

Caleb Larru
05-07-2010, 10:56 AM
Caleb,if you sent a PM,I haven't gotten it.

Sorry George I was paying you a complement on the saws. They are beautiful and would love to have them.

greg Forster
05-07-2010, 11:21 AM
Bryce,

Wenzloff & Sons sell brass backs, slit or folded. Thats the route I'm going. Too much work for just a few backs.

Tom Vanzant
05-07-2010, 11:53 AM
George,
Most shears would have imparted a twist in the plate. How did you avoid that or deal with it?
Tom

george wilson
05-08-2010, 8:07 AM
We had to anneal the strips for the saw backs. Then,they were very soft for any untwisting. Annealing also to begin to sharply bend the strips into a "V".