Fixing my amateur mistakes

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Hi guys,

Well, I'm 3/4 of the way through my 2nd project: Shaker style end table. It's a basic design from the Taunton book on tables. about 28" high, 19" square, 1 drawer under the table-top. Aprons are M&T into the legs.

I machined my lumber to dimension and used handtools for the rest of the work...M&T, surfacing, etc.

This is my first project w/ M&T joinery, so I was going off "instinct" and what i've picked up by reading over the years. My mortices were actually decent...used a 3/8" mortice chisel and the LN larger router plane to help clean out the bottom.

Now to the real issue:

The tenons are where i could certainly use the practice. I thought everything fit fairly well together on dry-fit. So i glued the front rails and legs and back apron and legs. All is well. The next night, I glued in the side aprons to join Front and Back. All was well under clamps as far as being square and sitting quite level, just a hint of rocking...maybe around 1/8" "teeter-totter". I thought, not bad for my first go.

Then i took off the clamps....(Bessey K's)....and now I've got a good 1/4" teeter totter at the floor and my table top teeter-totter's as well. Basically I ended up with a slight twist in the carcase.

So, do i cut it apart and start over or just deal w/ shimming, trimming, smoke and mirrors? I think it will look fine, fitting the drawer to a slightly twised carcase will be tricky (i haven't done the drawer yet).

I stand in the shop staring at it and the only real place i can see a need for change is in doing much more accurate M&T's...not saying its perfect otherwise, but for building the next item and getting square results M&T's are the place i need work on.

[David Keller NC]

Tough to say for sure, but I'm betting one or more of your tenon shoulders was not square, which caused the assembly to rack in the vertical plane.

If it were my project, I would go to the trouble of fixing it. Antique, completely hand-made furniture is rarely spot-on, though it's usually closer than what you describe.

The first thing I'd do is plane the top of the carcasse square so the that the top will fit flush. This will likely be the hardest thing to do accurately, and if you're not satisfied with the results, then you haven't spent an additional few hours leveling the legs and skewing the drawer slides and stops to get a square case for it. This last point, by the way, is what I'd do - I'd build the drawer square and fit it to the non-square case with skewed drawer runners and stops that aren't uniformly relieved from the back of the case.

[Prashun Patel]

If it were me (and having encountered lots of similar surprises) my advice:

Don't cut and restart. Take a deep breath and wait for a day. Working around these things is (IMHO) the real challenge and beauty of woodworking.

Have you attached the drawer rails yet? That might help to right the carcass a tad. Since the drawers run relative to the rails and the front face, as long as that's all square, it'll look fine.

if the top is flat, then once it's attached, it'll help the carcass untwist a little. If not, then I'd scribe a little off the tops of the aprons and sand a little off the bottoms of the proud legs.

[Bill Houghton]

if the top is flat, then once it's attached, it'll help the carcass untwist a little.

My coffee table had the opposite problem: the undercarriage, legs and apron, were square and plumb, no wobble at all; but the top, when I went to assemble it, had sat a little too long on a non-flat surface, and pulled the legs askew. I can't remember what cereal my sons were eating at the time, but, if I ever want to know, I can just remove the cereal-box shim that brought the legs back into line and look.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

That sounds like some good advice. Since I've already glued the M&T's, I was really unsure about how and if I should attempt pulling it apart without damaging anything - using Titebond II, i don't see that being a great option.

Dave - I think you're right; build the drawer square and skew the runners and kickers to make it open and close correctly. Also, the carcase is fairly square on the horizontal plane - out of whack a bit more than a 1/16". I should be able to live with that on this project. But vertically, yes, definately this is where it's off kilter. You're also right about my tenon shoulders - they were not real square upon closer inspection.

How do you guys square up tenon shoulders? My shoulder plane is the large LN, which is a bit awkward on this project since its much wider than the shoulder i was working with.


Shawn - I do notice the legs rock opposite corners of what the table top rocks. Bascially, tightening the carcase into the table top may help pull it all into square horizontally. I had not thought about this at all.

I will say I handplaned that table top pretty darn flat for 21x21 inches! :) One shining part of the whole project!

Thanks again - what a great wealth of info.

[David Keller NC]

"How do you guys square up tenon shoulders? My shoulder plane is the large LN, which is a bit awkward on this project since its much wider than the shoulder i was working with."

The key here is getting the shoulder guage line absolutely square to the long side of the rail in the marking out stage. That way, if you mis-cut it, you've a guide to get you back to where you want to be. Typically, I use a chisel and very carefully pare to the gauge line, but I have used a shoulder plane before and used the "stop-shaving" Charlesworth method to correct an out-of-square condition.

[David DeCristoforo]

There is one thing I would try that has not been suggested (at least I don't think it has...forgive if I missed it) and that is to clamp the frame to the top. It's quite possible that this will "pull out" much of the racking of the frame. If so, you will have a much smaller error to deal with.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

John,
You probably read a lot of threads about a dead flat assembly table. If you plan to build furniture, especially small tables or chairs, building one will save you a lot of headaches. If you have something out of square, it would have shown up when you dry fit and clamp your table prior to glue. Then you could have fixed any issues prior to making the joints permanent. Search "torsion boxes" for a guide to building one. Meanwhile, your minor error will afford you a real learning opportunity and a chance to fix the problem with an imaginative solution. Success will build confidence for your next project. The worst case scenario is you start again. No one every learned from doing everything right.
fmr

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

There is one thing I would try that has not been suggested (at least I don't think it has...forgive if I missed it) and that is to clamp the frame to the top. It's quite possible that this will "pull out" much of the racking of the frame. If so, you will have a much smaller error to deal with.

I found that out this weekend! Sure enough, clamping the top onto the carcase pulled out most of the twist and there is only a slight rocking - about 3/32 of an inch. Again, I can live with that on this project. It's not worth tearing everything apart to try to correct it.


John,
You probably read a lot of threads about a dead flat assembly table. If you plan to build furniture, especially small tables or chairs, building one will save you a lot of headaches. If you have something out of square, it would have shown up when you dry fit and clamp your table prior to glue. Then you could have fixed any issues prior to making the joints permanent. Search "torsion boxes" for a guide to building one. Meanwhile, your minor error will afford you a real learning opportunity and a chance to fix the problem with an imaginative solution. Success will build confidence for your next project. The worst case scenario is you start again. No one every learned from doing everything right.
fmr

You're right, Faust. I use my Sjobergs workbench which is quite flat for assembly. As I mentioned in the original post, everything was "acceptable" while under clamping pressure. It wasn't until i released the clamps that i found out i had an issue. I learned an incredible amount on this project. Fun stuff! I just have to get the drawer milled and cut - back to the handcut dovetails! I'm hoping they look even better on the drawers than they did on my serving tray i did 6 weeks ago.

Thanks again, guys.

[Rusty Elam]

Just another thought, you have to be careful fitting your tenon cheeks too, if you do it with the shoulder plane its easy to not hold it level and then cut more off the top or bottom then you flip it over and do the other side and eventually you end up with a twisted tenon. Its hard to notice because you are fitting it with the apron loose. But you can usually tell when you are assembling the frame.
Dont ask me how I know this.
Rusty

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

So is the general consensus to cut the tenons as close and square as possible with a saw, pare any waste away, then if there is any final fitment to do use the shoulder plane?

Like anything, i suppose the real answer is all of the above and then practice, practice, practice, and a bit more practice.

[David Keller NC]

"Like anything, i suppose the real answer is all of the above and then practice, practice, practice, and a bit more practice."

Yep, that's about it. My thought here is that practice does not make perfect, it makes habit. So if you practice getting a fit from the saw, without any adjustment, that's what you'll achieve, at the cost of occasionally ruined pieces. If you practice cutting away from the line and then paring to it, they you'll get really good at paring.

This is why, I think, that dovetail gurus tell you to practice getting the dovetails to fit from the saw. Otherwise, you'll spend many more hours than needed paring every joint.

[Steve Hamlin]

My thought here is that practice does not make perfect, it makes habit.
Hear, hear.
Ask any muso. Perfect practice makes perfect. Any other kind delivers one to a plateau of consistent mediocrity - which must then be examined to identify a course of remedial study.
Often far quicker in the longterm to address each failing as it arises than allow it to become entrenched as one shifts focus to another area.
(OTOH - as my tabla teacher once said - is bl**dy drum - HIT IT! IOW, recognise when you've made a step forward, and bring other areas up to the same level before getting frustrated)

[Greg Cole]

"Like anything, i suppose the real answer is all of the above and then practice, practice, practice, and a bit more practice."
As I tell my 7 year old when we practice basketball or baseball... "if you don't practice right, you won't play right".
I try to do as little paring as possible, maybe it's just me but I find I wind up with a "redo" if I have to pare things to fit.
In regards to a flat assembly surface, you may want to verify the flatness of the bench top or go with the torsion box assembly table as mentioned.
Congrats on solving the problem at hand.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

I think you all make great points about practicing perfection. If you practice bad habits, you just get good at bad habits. The converse being true of course.

As for the flat assembly surface, I am quite confident in my workbench top and table saw as my "flat" surfaces. This whole "mess" I got myself into had nothing to do with not having a reference surface...it had everything to do with bad tenon shoulders and tenons.

Eventually, I would like to add another outfeed table to double as a setup table, but I have a very small workspace, so squeezing one in there might be tricky.

What am i missing on torsion boxes? I did a search and all that comes up are different work tables people have built. I see nothing special about them other than being a nice flat workspace for assembly. Some folks built some handy adjustable legs and different ideas that would be nice though. I guess calling them torsion boxes conjured ideas of builtin clamping and ways to hold carcase style furniture.

[Greg Cole]

The real upside of a torsion box is the stability regardless of season etc. They aren't prone to seasonal movement as stick built benches-surfaces (so long as you have a true flat surface to use to assemble a torsion box, it should always be dead flat or at least as flat as the surface you used to build it ;)).
I didn't mean to make it sound as your current bench wasn't flat, but not all benches are as flat as they once were..... then again the humidity here in the middle of the midwest goes from dry as the desert to wet as a swamp.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

The real upside of a torsion box is the stability regardless of season etc. They aren't prone to seasonal movement as stick built benches-surfaces (so long as you have a true flat surface to use to assemble a torsion box, it should always be dead flat or at least as flat as the surface you used to build it ;)).
I didn't mean to make it sound as your current bench wasn't flat, but not all benches are as flat as they once were..... then again the humidity here in the middle of the midwest goes from dry as the desert to wet as a swamp.

Gotcha, so its more the material they are made of to keep the flat top flat. Which makes sense. Very true on wood benches, such as my workbench...i have not had to flatten it yet, but i check it each season. Our humid season is coming up soon as well. not looking forward to it, really.

I hope i didn't sound edgy or defensive about my workbench being flat - i was just trying to point out that i had considered that and ruled it out as a cause of my problem for this particular project.

Thanks again for your help...much appreciated.

[David Gendron]

Some thing not said, when you do assembly with a lot of joints and there is any chances of problem after glue up that didn't show in dry fit, I use liquid hide glue, like Old Brown glue. that way, with a little warm and moisture you can take it appart!
Just my 2cents...
David

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Some thing not said, when you do assembly with a lot of joints and there is any chances of problem after glue up that didn't show in dry fit, I use liquid hide glue, like Old Brown glue. that way, with a little warm and moisture you can take it appart!
Just my 2cents...
David


Good to know! I never would have known that...Being the amateur that I am, all i know at this point is Titebond...thanks!