is there a trick to planing rock maple?

[Justin Cavender]

I am somewhat new to the slippery slope of hand planes I am having trouble planing rock maple I have some white ash and can plne it like butter but when I go to do the maple it just dont want to work is there a trick?

[Wilbur Pan]

Double check the sharpness of your blades, and the setup of your planes.

Or use another species of wood. ;)

Seriously, one thing to do is plane cross grain until you get close to your finished dimensions. But if you're trying to smooth plane rock maple, the first two tips are all that has worked for me with this stuff.

[Justin Cavender]

Wilbur they are freshly sharpened blades I am tring to smooth plane it after the power planer I was contemplating buyin a ln or lv scraper plane but dont know if I know how to sharp those blades properly. plus I was under the impression ash was harder to hand tool than maple.

[David Myers]

I'm also relatively new to the cave, and I've had exactly the same experience. I can make wispy shavings on oak and a few other species in the cutoff bin, but when I try maple the chatter is so bad I feel like a Warner Bros. Cartoon character using a jackhammer.

For me, I suspect my problems stem from a combination of a crappy smoother (modern Stanley #4) being wielded by a neophyte in both tuning and use, suboptimal sharpening (sharp enough for oak may not be sharp enough for maple), and choice of wood to plane (i.e. maple is hard after all).

What plane(s) are you using for your smoothing attempts? Have you tried heavier planes (i.e. using a Jack as a big smoother)?

Just curious and glad you posted this problem.

[Justin Cavender]

A sweetheart era stanley #5 and a shelton #9 wich is like a #4 stanley I get the same thing from both I know they are sharp I am scary sharping up to 2000 grit and using a honing guide doing 25 main bevel and 30 micro bevel.

[Wilbur Pan]

Maple likes really sharp tools. Your 2000 grit sandpaper (I assume it's sandpaper, since you mentioned scary sharp) may not be sharp enough for rock maple.

One issue with sharpening methods is that there isn't an easily comparable system to see how sharp your method of choice will get get your tool. The best way to see this is not to define the sharpening method by grit, which doesn't mean the same thing for different types of abrasive (e.g. US sandpaper vs. European sandpaper vs. waterstones), but by the size of the abrasive particles themselves. 2000 grit sandpaper has grit particles that are about 6 microns in diameter. These particles are bigger than what you'll find on 8000 grit waterstones, or green compound used with a strop.

You might want to consider adding one of these methods to your sharpening arsenal. They will have a noticeable effect on your blade. I promise.

With your planes, you could also adjust the position of the frog so that the blade is as close to the front of the mouth as possible.

[David Keller NC]

Justin - you don't say whether the problem is that you can't get a consistent shaving, or that the grain is tearing out, or that the blade's chattering.

From the standpoint of getting a consistent shaving - the iron has to be ungodly sharp. One way of testing this is to use the plane iron to cut the end-grain of a piece of eastern white pine. If the blade's the least bit below sharp, the end-grain will tear out instead of leaving behind a smooth surface, and that's what you want (and need) to successfully plane either hard or soft maple.

If the wood's tearing out, first check the sharpness of your irons. If that's OK, you may have sufficient figuring in the board that it's just not going to plane cleanly with an iron at a 45 degree pitch. You can, of course, get a higher-pitched plane, either by getting a Lie-Nielsen with a high-angle frog, or going to a scraper plane. However, you can also get a higher effective cutting angle by putting a micro back-bevel on your iron.

Finally, if the plane is leaving behind chatter marks, you've two potential problems - one is that there may not be a sufficiently good fit between the iron and the frog. This can be corrected by coloring the back of the iron with a magic marker, re-assembling the plane, tapping on the lever cap lightly with a block of wood, disassembling the plane, and carefully and slowly filing down the high spots (that have transferred magic marker on them). If that's not the problem, you may need to either purchase a thicker iron for your plane (if you're using the original iron), or you may even have to go to another plane like a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley that has 3/16" thick irons. Many, if not most, of the original Stanley irons are quite thin and tend to chatter on very hard wood.

[Tim Put]

Chatter might also be caused by insufficient clearance angle.
Not all woods tolerate lower clearance angles.

[Brian Kent]

Mujingfang 9" High Angle Smoother from Japanwoodworker. Rosewood plane with a high angle laminated blade for about $55. It was rated among the best really expensive planes.

[george wilson]

You can grind a bevel on the front of the iron,to cause it to scrape more than cut. This will make it plane more smoothly,but the plane will be harder to push. Just take a light cut.

[Justin Cavender]

My problem is that it wont take a blade width shaving and it wont take a shaving the length of the board I have the frog forward closing the mouth up realy close I can take shavings I can read through on black walnut but the maple just wont plane for me. I hope this has described my problem. George I also tried the back bevel on another pre war stanley I have and it didnt work either

[george wilson]

I think the high angle scraping cut might be a solution,and it gives better performance on figured wood. I am also thinking your plane and iron aren't rigid enough.

[Justin Cavender]

Well I have been thinking about a hock iron and chipbreaker I think you have just pushed me over the edge and talked me into it george thanks for twisting my arm lol:D

[Justin Cavender]

George I liked your guitar you posted that was BEAUTIFUL that is all I build except electric here is the first finished one if you don't mind to have a look and give me some constructive criticism http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1095600#post1095600

[george wilson]

I have made instruments that wild in shape,but I am traditional in my approach. I think your shape was well designed,though. No bad looking curves. Maybe the peghead is too traditional for the body?

[Robert Rozaieski]

My problem is that it wont take a blade width shaving and it wont take a shaving the length of the board I have the frog forward closing the mouth up realy close I can take shavings I can read through on black walnut but the maple just wont plane for me. I hope this has described my problem. George I also tried the back bevel on another pre war stanley I have and it didnt work either

Justin,

It sounds to me like you have several problems that can sometimes be overlooked with a softer (i.e. walnut) or springier (i.e. oak or ash) wood but rear their ugly head(s) when working a wood as hard as maple. Maple is very hard and not very springy so things need to be a little more perfect when working it. This is also true of the many exotics which are often much harder and less springy than our domestic hardwoods (e.g. bubinga and purpleheart).

First, it sounds like your board isn't flat. If a smoother won't take a shaving the length of the board, the board isn't flat from end to end. Maple is not as springy as ash or oak so if there's a slight bow from end to end, it is less likely to spring out under planing pressure than an oak or ash board. Also, maple it's a tight grained wood, unlike oak and ash which are very open pored. This makes oak and ash much easier to plane than maple. In fact, I rather enjoy planing oak and ash. I'm not a big fan of hard maple.

Second, if it won't take a full width shaving, either the board is cupped and you have the cup facing down (i.e. you're planing the high middle section only) OR you have too much camber in your iron to take a thin full width shaving (or a combination of both). Smoothers should have almost no camber at all. In fact, if you can see the curvature without putting a ruler or straight edge up to the edge of the iron, it's too much camber for a smoother. For a smooth plane intended to take thin shavings you want only very slight cambering to the blade, almost undetectable.

Third, if your blade is chattering, it likely is not bedding well. Apply candle soot to the blade, carefully put it in the plane so as not to disturb the soot, advance the iron just a hair, disassemble and then look at the iron to see where the iron is bedding against the frog. You want full length support all along the very bottom edge of the frog. If your iron is not making contact in this area, the blade will chatter no matter how thick of an iron you put in the plane. In other words, a Hock iron will not solve a bad bedding problem. If your iron is not bedding well, fix the frog before you go swapping out the iron or you may be disappointed in the new iron.

[Mark Roderick]

I have found that increasing the angle can make a huge difference. This calls for either (1) a bevel-up plane, (2) a high-angle frog, or (3) a back-bevel on the blade.

I've also found that there are some pieces of wood that I just can't effectively plane because of the difficult grain. I don't think this has to do with the sharpness of the blade or any problem with the plane, but I'm not the world's expert and I could be wrong. When I come across these pieces I either decide not to use them or do the best that I can with a plane and then resort to sandpaper.

[David Keller NC]

Justin - Bob's hit the nail on the head. Based on what you said the problem is, the likely cause is very much likely to be that the board isn't flat.

There are a couple of solutions. One is to keep planing with the smoother. Eventually, you will get that surface flat enough to get a shaving all the way down the length of the board. The other solution is to use a long plane, such as a Stnaley #6, #7, or #8, to truly "joint" the board flat with thicker shavings than with the smoother, then switch to the smoother.

Be aware that if you continue to plane the board with the smoother, you may well get it to take a full-width, full-length shaving, but you will also probably leave the board non-flat in length. The sole of the smoother isn't long enough to "jig" the board so that it will plane out only the high spots, and so after a few passes the board's flat.

One observation here is that planing is not an automatic process - it does take some training and skill to get a flat, consistent result. It's not hard to learn, and there are lots of resources here at SMC, on the web, and in books that will get you the information you need to know.

[Dave Anderson NH]

One other observation here. Ash, Oak, and walnut are all woods with a pronounced porosity and open grain structure. As such you are not planing as solid and closed a surface as you are with hard maple. This means that with the three open grained woods you can plane with a blade that is less sharp and often get good results. Maple is not so forgiving and your blade must be truly sharp. Bob and Dave have made very good suggestions.

[David Gendron]

Have you try different mouth opening??
Also a back bevel might help!

[Charles Shenk]

While I don't own an infill plane such as a Sauer Steiner or Brese, my experience working with them a bit at shows is that if you plan to plane a lot of rock maple these tools may be worth the price. I have good luck with my LN LA Jack set at 60 degrees and a tite mouth. When I do another hard/flame maple piece in the future, I'll probably spring for a Brese mini with the Jameel treatments.

[Greg Lucas]

To plane hard maple, you need everything to be correct. I suspect the sharpness first. Scary sharp to 2000 doesn't mean sharp if you don't get a wire edge with the lowest grit. If you can look down on your edge and see any reflection at all, it's not sharp yet. The next thing you might try is taking the thinnest shaving possible. If you are coming up with widths that are less than a 1/2 inch at the that setting, you need to check how flat your blade edge is. I prefer virtually no camber at all in my smoothers. Most will adjust for a deeper cut when the shaving is too thing and that is going to cause the problems you're having on hard maple. Lastly, if the sole isn't flat you just won't get the kind of performance you're looking for. You are basically pushing the limits of what a plane can do so keep working on finding the problems until it's working smoothly and then you'll know you've tuned it just right.

[Andrew Homan]

Also, using a toothed blade can help, until you get very close to the final thickness. I don't think that this is the original purpose of toothed blades, but it's a trick that I learned from an experienced violin-builder.
-Andy