Getting consistence level of sharpness

[Tri Hoang]

I am an extreme novice at sharpening. My set up consists of the Grizzly T10030 (tormek clone) which I used mostly as a shaping machine. I do all of the sharpening/honing free hand on a pair of King 1000 and 8000 water stones. After some practice, I've been getting pretty good results lately as measured by shaving forearm's hair.

My trouble began about a week ago when I accidentally got a really sharp plane blade after using my 8000 stone. It cuts the hair just by touching them. Putting it back into my LV LA jack, I was amazed at how much less effort it requires to plane...it feels extremely smooth.

I have not been able to repeat that same result since.

Am I expecting too much out of my tools/techniques or is it the norm for you experts out there with similar set up?

[Jim Koepke]

One word comes to mind, epiphany.

You fortunately achieved a great result before fully developing your skills.
Now, you know what can be achieved and where the goal resides.
With practice you will be able to repeat it on a regular basis.

In other words, yes, it has likely happened to many of us. It has happened to me.

You may want to acquire a stone between the 1000 and 8000 when you can. A 4000 stone is my advice.

jim

[Brian Kincaid]

I too had an experience like this. I spent some time cleaning and sharpening some old hand planes handed down to me. After cleaning up the #4 I put it to some oak I had lying around. The resulting surface was far better than I had achieved with any plane including my LN4(bronze) up to that point. I guess newbies get lucky sometimes. Of course then I spent a few minutes (or was it hours?) with my LN and got it up to the same standard as the vintage Wards Master :rolleyes:

Brian

[Mark Singer]

Sometimes one part of your technique may work against how sharp you can get the edge. The Tormek is great for the hollow bevel on the face.... just leave it and hone the back with your stones to remove the burr. That simple method reduces it to just 2 operations making it more consistent and nor rounding the bevel

[Ken Werner]

Tri, the hairless forearm is not really a good measure of sharpness. Try instead to pare across pine endgrain. If you remove a nice intact shaving, your blade is sharp. This is also good for your forearm's health.

My guess is that since you are honing freehand, you hit a sweet angle for your bevel.

Now that you have a clearer idea of the ideal, you can aim for it again. I am sure you will get there. For me, sharpening is an ongoing pursuit, and while I am quite happy with what I can achieve, I enjoy refining my technique.

Ken

[Tri Hoang]

One word comes to mind, epiphany.

jim

That was exactly how I felt at the moment. It sets the bar higher for what I know could be done with sharpening.


Tri, the hairless forearm is not really a good measure of sharpness. Try instead to pare across pine endgrain. If you remove a nice intact shaving, your blade is sharp. This is also good for your forearm's health.

I assume typical 2x4 material is OK...approximately how large should the shavings be for this test?

[Ken Werner]

just a fine shaving the width of the blade. You are seeking a smooth surface left behind, not specifically the shaving which even though it is end grain holds together.

Too often we lose sight of the fact that we seek not beautiful shavings, but smooth surfaces.

[Wilbur Pan]

I assume typical 2x4 material is OK...approximately how large should the shavings be for this test?

I have scrap pine that I use for testing edges, if I'm ever unsure of my sharpening. As Ken mentioned, I try to take an end grain shaving the full width of the chisel:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_a3R4RhWn1Is/SZDyLCmduQI/AAAAAAAAAZc/7Lct0OT13m8/s400/IMG_7984.JPG

As far as not being able to repeat your excellent sharpening experience, trust me: if you can do it once, you'll do it again. All it takes is practice.

This reminds me of a story of what happened to me when I was younger. When I played Little League baseball, I always stood as far back in the batter's box as I could, since I was afraid of getting hit by a pitch. Besides this phobia, I was a decent hitter, usually batting first or second in the lineup. One day my coach convinced me to move myself up in the batter's box, more even with the plate. The first pitch I hit was a home run. That was the first home run I had ever hit in Little League -- I was always more of a contact hitter. Not only that, I really crushed that ball over the left field fence. It was several weeks before I hit another home run, but after that I was hitting them somewhat regularly.

So if I could be a home run hitter in Little League, and if you saw me back then you never would have believed that I could hit home runs, you can sharpen.

[Tri Hoang]

A picture is worth a thousand words. It is indeed a very high bar for me but now I have more confidence that it could be done with my present set up. I think it boils down to the caressing steps on the 8000 stone.



I have scrap pine that I use for testing edges, if I'm ever unsure of my sharpening. As Ken mentioned, I try to take an end grain shaving the full width of the chisel:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_a3R4RhWn1Is/SZDyLCmduQI/AAAAAAAAAZc/7Lct0OT13m8/s400/IMG_7984.JPG

As far as not being able to repeat your excellent sharpening experience, trust me: if you can do it once, you'll do it again. All it takes is practice.

This reminds me of a story of what happened to me when I was younger. When I played Little League baseball, I always stood as far back in the batter's box as I could, since I was afraid of getting hit by a pitch. Besides this phobia, I was a decent hitter, usually batting first or second in the lineup. One day my coach convinced me to move myself up in the batter's box, more even with the plate. The first pitch I hit was a home run. That was the first home run I had ever hit in Little League -- I was always more of a contact hitter. Not only that, I really crushed that ball over the left field fence. It was several weeks before I hit another home run, but after that I was hitting them somewhat regularly.

So if I could be a home run hitter in Little League, and if you saw me back then you never would have believed that I could hit home runs, you can sharpen.

[Jim Koepke]

Too often we lose sight of the fact that we seek not beautiful shavings, but smooth surfaces.

This is true, but if my plane can not make a thin shaving, it is likely not doing too good at making the surface being sought.

For me, a thin shaving can tell a lot about what is taking place. A full width gossamer shaving tells me the blade is not nicked. Nicked blades will produce multiple ribbons.

It is good for gauging the lateral adjustment from side to side. At the thinest shaving possible, if the lateral setting is off, the shaving will not appear across the full blade. One can also make a full width shaving and tell by feel if one side is fatter than the other.

It can also tell how sharp the blade is at the moment. A dull blade will have a difficult time producing a real thin shavings, let alone one that is not rough.

So, taking the surface down to get rid of any saw marks and other defects is done with thick shavings, but in my experience, to get the "smooth as glass" surface, making thin shavings tends to leave behind the nicest surface.

jim

[Tri Hoang]

I spent some time sharpening again (not that I dull the blade that quickly but to practice) and the blade still does not pass either hair jumping or pine tests but I think it passed the surface test with hard maple: glass smooth surface with little effort (well..I cheated a little with the sole waxed).

For now, I am content with what I've got knowing that there's lots of to learn. I also managed to slightly camber the blade following Derek C. instructions for the bevel-up blades.

[Terry Beadle]

If you have some time, go up on youtube.com and take a look at the techniques demonstrated there involving the sharpening of a straight razor. There's some good tips there on how to get that last bit of sharp and how to remove a burr.

Also, take a piece of rock maple and make a 1/4 inch thick by 3 inch long by 2 inch wide rectangle. Get one edge dead flat as checked against a Starret or equivelent edge. Use it to check your cutting edge for crown and straightness while holding it up against some good sun light or a high intensity lamp. I have found that this some times shows a un-even edge in terms of straightness and will confirm how much of a curve you've put in a blade. Handy.

Good luck.

[Don Naples]

One common sharpening flaw I often see, is the back of the plane iron being rounded (dubbed) near the edge. This often happens with those who use a wheel to strop the back of the iron, and those who do not keep their stones perfectly flat. When moving a plane iron on a water stone, one usually does not use the entire width of the stone, so the edge not used will become higher than the center of the stone. This will round the back of the plane iron and make it more difficult to sharpen after flattening the stone, as the cutting edge now rides slightly above the stone. Since the metal is usually shiny, it is difficult to see this flaw. Place the iron on a fine sheet of abrasive paper positioned on a flat surface (reference plates are good, but glass or other flat surfaces will work) and take a single swipe of the iron across the abrasive surface. Then look at the scratch pattern it made, you can clearly see if the scratches go to the edge of the iron. Frequently, they don't. This may be the reason you saw good results once and then have difficulty reproducing the sharp edge. I strongly agree with others who suggest shaving a soft wood end grain is a better test of sharpness. Planing figured woods without getting tear out is another real world test for sharpness. If you can't shave hair, then the tool is dull. Shaving hair does not mean it is truly sharp. If the edge is sharp but dubbed, you may be able to shave hair, but when the iron is put to work on a piece of wood, it may not yield the results it is capable of performing.

[Tri Hoang]

Thanks, Terry. I like the idea of using a maple straight edge. I was afraid of damaging the edge after the 8000 that I only check it for straightness right after shaping on the grinder.


If you have some time, go up on youtube.com and take a look at the techniques demonstrated there involving the sharpening of a straight razor. There's some good tips there on how to get that last bit of sharp and how to remove a burr.

Also, take a piece of rock maple and make a 1/4 inch thick by 3 inch long by 2 inch wide rectangle. Get one edge dead flat as checked against a Starret or equivelent edge. Use it to check your cutting edge for crown and straightness while holding it up against some good sun light or a high intensity lamp. I have found that this some times shows a un-even edge in terms of straightness and will confirm how much of a curve you've put in a blade. Handy.

Good luck.

[Casey Gooding]

Practice, Practice, Practice.
It will come easier the more you do it.
I also use King stones and recently had a revelation that I needed something between the 1000 and 8000 stones I typically used.
With other brands I haven't needed a medium stone, but with the Kings I do.

[Tri Hoang]

I performed your test with a granite block and 15 micron micro-abrasive. Sure enough, the scratch patterns did not extend uniformly to the edge.

I would use micro-abrasive if I could avoid tearing them out during the cambering steps. Not having to deal with water in the shop is a big plus.

I am using the ruler trick as the last honing step. Would this step negate the need for absolute flatness of the iron back? When I am done, I can see a tiny shining bevel at the very tip of the iron back.



One common sharpening flaw I often see, is the back of the plane iron being rounded (dubbed) near the edge. This often happens with those who use a wheel to strop the back of the iron, and those who do not keep their stones perfectly flat. When moving a plane iron on a water stone, one usually does not use the entire width of the stone, so the edge not used will become higher than the center of the stone. This will round the back of the plane iron and make it more difficult to sharpen after flattening the stone, as the cutting edge now rides slightly above the stone. Since the metal is usually shiny, it is difficult to see this flaw. Place the iron on a fine sheet of abrasive paper positioned on a flat surface (reference plates are good, but glass or other flat surfaces will work) and take a single swipe of the iron across the abrasive surface. Then look at the scratch pattern it made, you can clearly see if the scratches go to the edge of the iron. Frequently, they don't. This may be the reason you saw good results once and then have difficulty reproducing the sharp edge. I strongly agree with others who suggest shaving a soft wood end grain is a better test of sharpness. Planing figured woods without getting tear out is another real world test for sharpness. If you can't shave hair, then the tool is dull. Shaving hair does not mean it is truly sharp. If the edge is sharp but dubbed, you may be able to shave hair, but when the iron is put to work on a piece of wood, it may not yield the results it is capable of performing.

[Don Naples]

I performed your test with a granite block and 15 micron micro-abrasive. Sure enough, the scratch patterns did not extend uniformly to the edge.

I would use micro-abrasive if I could avoid tearing them out during the cambering steps. Not having to deal with water in the shop is a big plus.

I am using the ruler trick as the last honing step. Would this step negate the need for absolute flatness of the iron back? When I am done, I can see a tiny shining bevel at the very tip of the iron back.

Don't feel bad. In my past six years of demonstrating sharpening, only two times has someone handed me a tool that the scratches went to the edge. This is a very common error.

Camber is only needed for a Jack plane and a slight bit for a Fore Plane. Smoothing planes and Jointer planes do not need camber. The Jack is used to remove wood where the smoothing plane removes high spots, so should be set fine enough to not need a camber. The Jointer is usually used for shooting edges so it does not need camber. You can put a slight radius on the corners if creating tracks are a concern.

Using Microfinishing film is a good sharpening abrasive if you don't want to use water stones. They are available to .3 micron. One handy tip is to use Formula 409 or a similar cleaner (or WD-40 if you don't mind using this near wood) for a wetting agent once you reach the 9 micron level. The swarf tends to stick to the really fine abrasives, causing fine flaws in the sharpend surface and also wearing out quickly. Using 409 will float the swarf and allow you to wipe the abrasive clean, preventing flaws and extending the use of the abrasive.

I personally do not like to put a back bevel on my plane irons. Aside from having to deal with another angle, you can't do it to chisels or to bevel up plane irons. If you learn to get the plane iron flat (the tough work is only done once in the life of the iron), you will find it easier to sharpen the other tools mentioned as well.

[Tri Hoang]

I added a Shapton 4000 glass stone between the King 1200 and 8000. I also forgo the ruler trick and actually polish the back of my plane irons on the King 8000. The polishing on the the 8000 is a real chore because I needed to stop and flatten the stone every so often.

I am getting the "wonder" edge about 50% of the time now. If I strop the blades a few times on MDF with green honing compound, I am pretty much there.

Speaking of the Shapton glass stone, it works so well I think I am going to replace the King 1200 with a Shapton 1000. It cuts extremely fast, stays flat through multiple sharpening session, and a little less messy than the waterstones.

[David Gendron]

I dont agree with Don N. saying that you need camber only on jack and fore planes, I have my #8 with a camber and it defenitly speed up the process of getting an edge true! I also have some of my smoothing plane with some camber and it prevent tracks left from the corners of the iron. Of course you would loose a little wight on the shaving but I can deel with that!!

[george wilson]

I never use a honing wheel.I've tried the Tormek at Woodcraft. All it does is mess up the formerly sharp edge that my knife had.

[Jim Koepke]

I usually stay out of the cambered versus straight debate.

My feeling is having camber is a personal choice except maybe on a scrub plane.

Some of my blades have a very slight camber. This usually tells me the stones are in need of some flattening.

In final smoothing, with a sharp blade, set for a light cut, I usually do not have a problem of leaving tracks.

Everyone does things in a way that hopefully works best for them. It is hard for me to believe things are only going to work if we all do them exactly the same.

jim