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Mike Henderson
04-10-2009, 1:02 PM
I'm preparing some wood for bending - the backs of a couple of Windsor chairs.

Is there any advantage in orienting the grain one way or the other when bending? I have Lon Schleining's book "The Complete Manual of Wood Bending" and he says (p149) that the grain orientation doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is grain runout - and I'm using riven wood so there's very little runout.

What's your experience? Have you had better success with one grain direction than the other? I can go either way because my pieces are fairly square right now.

Mike

Robert Rozaieski
04-10-2009, 1:17 PM
Mike, I have not done any bending to date but everything I've read from Dunbar and Underhill suggests bending in the growth ring plane so that the growth rings remain parallel to the bend. I'm not 100% sure of their reasons (just can't remember at the moment).

So you've started the chair(s)? How far have you gotten? Any pics yet? I haven't had a chance to start one yet. I'm still getting my turning tools tuned up and completing other outstanding projects. Can't wait to see yours. How has the process been going so far?

David Keller NC
04-10-2009, 1:19 PM
Mike - I've done a few of these, and can honestly say I never paid any attention to which way the face/quartersawn grain was oriented, because in my view a Windsor isn't "right" unless it's painted, so grain orientation doesn't factor into appearance.

From the standpoint of success in bending, I found that the most failures were when I tried to use really dry wood that had been stored for a year or more as billets. Partially green wood was the easiest to successfully bend.

Note that I'm talking oak here - both red and white. I've little experience with ash, and I've done just a few hickory bows.

One thing that limited my success (and would be something I would change if I wanted to build Windsors on a regular basis) was that I didn't use a bending strap.

Mike Henderson
04-10-2009, 2:05 PM
Mike, I have not done any bending to date but everything I've read from Dunbar and Underhill suggests bending in the growth ring plane so that the growth rings remain parallel to the bend. I'm not 100% sure of their reasons (just can't remember at the moment).

So you've started the chair(s)? How far have you gotten? Any pics yet? I haven't had a chance to start one yet. I'm still getting my turning tools tuned up and completing other outstanding projects. Can't wait to see yours. How has the process been going so far?
Here's where I'm at. (click on the picture for a larger image)
115339

The legs look wrong in the picture but it's just an artifact of the wide angle lens - they really are balanced on both sides.

The one on the left is a bowback side chair, while the one on the right is a sackback. I turned the legs - the sackback in maple, and the bowback in poplar. I have all the spindles (for the backs) finished and just have to prepare the wood for bending and drill holes in the seat for the spindles (and, of course, bend the wood).

The seat on the sackback is sugar pine while the seat on the bowback is some other kind of pine. Someone gave me a piece of pine 1 1/2" thick so I decided to use it for the bowback. It had a lot of knots in it but I ripped the wood to eliminate the knots and glued it back together. The sackback seat is 1 3/4" thick. Sugar pine is a *very* easy wood to work.

I don't expect to make a bunch of Windsor chairs so I didn't buy a reamer. My home made reamer didn't work well (I won't go into that right now) so I used carving tools to rough out the taper. Then I turned a piece of wood with the same taper as the legs, cut a slot down the middle, and wrapped coarse sandpaper around it and smoothed out the taper with that. Worked well but very slow. If I was going to make a bunch, I'd definitely buy a commercial reamer.

Fitting the stretchers was pretty easy. I was working alone so I didn't have anyone to spot me on the boring angles but didn't have any problems. I used slow epoxy when I assembled the bottom end. I also used a power drill and a forstner bit - How untraditional!!!

Mike

[Lessons learned:

1. Drill the holes for the legs before you hollow out the seat. Having a flat surface to lay your sliding T bevel on makes the job easier. Also, if you have tearout around the top of the hole, you'll remove it when scooping out the seat.

2. When you drill out the holes for the stretchers, you can widen the bottom of the hole slightly without making the entry hole larger (at least I could with the forstner bit). That gives you a small amount of "wiggle room" when you assemble the stretchers to the legs and compensates for slight errors in the drilling angle.
]

Don C Peterson
04-10-2009, 2:08 PM
In my rather slight experience, I haven't found any difference in the success of my efforts based on grain orientation. The only reason I pay attention to the grain orientation is for appearance sake.

george wilson
04-10-2009, 5:12 PM
I recommend bending with the growth rings parallel to the bend,too.

"Dead stim allesame water."

Matt Newton
04-10-2009, 6:31 PM
Mike, When using riven wood like you are, the grain will be running in the right orientation. As stated before, you only have to worry if the grain runs off the blank. I just bent two bows for a bowback side chair. The first I forgot the bending strap and the second I used it. Both blanks bent with no problem.

Doug Mason
04-10-2009, 7:19 PM
I have been experimenting with steam bending lately. I bent 1 inch wide red oak over a fairly tight radius by soaking the wood first. I used kiln dried wood and, other than trying to get pieces with the starighest grain possible, didn't pay too much attention to it.

I had quite a few failures before I started to get the hang of it--but I think it was related more to my technique than grain direction. The belt makes/breaks it. Here is my set-up:
115365

See this link for more pics:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=107925

Robert Rozaieski
04-10-2009, 7:41 PM
Looking real good Mike! Can't wait to see the finished pieces.

Bob Glenn
04-19-2009, 1:44 PM
Mike, I've made several Windsors and grain orientation has never been a problem. However, when possible, I bend with the growth rings parallel to the bend also. Don't know why, just seems to be the right thing to do.

I also use a back strap. I tape the strap to the wood and put the whole thing in the steamer. It saves time getting the wood on the form. I also soak my oak in a PVC pipe prior to steaming, as I usually don't have access to an oak log and have to use quarter sawed boards. I used to soak the wood in the lake off the end of my dock, until a beaver stole several pieces during the night. Found them a few weeks later on top of his beaver lodge, rope still attached.

Good luck, bending is sort of an art.

Richard Dooling
04-20-2009, 9:54 AM
"Dead stim allesame water."

George, isn't that Steve McQueen in The Sand Pebbles?

Bob Easton
04-21-2009, 6:18 AM
You probably have the experience by now Mike, but one more observation:

If at all possible, use riven wood, and of that use the greenest you can acquire. A while back we used some non-riven oat for boat frames. The pieces with grain runout almost always broke while bending.

Bill Orbine
04-22-2009, 11:24 AM
I have been experimenting with steam bending lately. I bent 1 inch wide red oak over a fairly tight radius by soaking the wood first. I used kiln dried wood and, other than trying to get pieces with the starighest grain possible, didn't pay too much attention to it.

I had quite a few failures before I started to get the hang of it--but I think it was related more to my technique than grain direction. The belt makes/breaks it. Here is my set-up:
115365

See this link for more pics:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=107925

Kiln dried wood? I've never hit on a project that required steam but I've made quite a study in the past. I've come upon several readings that you'll have more success using air dried wood for bending. Not that I'm saying you can't do it with kiln dried wood, but have much less failure rate using the air dried. The heat from the kilns sets the lignum (spelling?) within the wood making it less likely to bend without fracture.

Dan O'Sullivan
04-23-2009, 7:40 PM
Is there any advantage in orienting the grain one way or the other when bending? I have Lon Schleining's book "The Complete Manual of Wood Bending" and he says (p149) that the grain orientation doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is grain runout - and I'm using riven wood so there's very little runout.

What's your experience? Have you had better success with one grain direction than the other? I can go either way because my pieces are fairly square right now.

Hello Mike
I know I'm really late and you're probably sitting on your chair wondering why this guy replied so late?? I just joined SMC. Lots of advice and lots of different suggestions ... so here's one more. Steam bending is my first choice when making chair parts for a simple reason: I don't have to buy wood. Granted I live here on the East Coast(NC) and there is soooo much red oak its just easy to "split" logs and get going on bent parts. When you rive the wood, the success rate is very high and the "strength factor" is also a benefit. When I bend, its in the fall season. Its too hot in the summer and I am a weenie in January- I'm in the shop. When I bend, I do about 50-60 parts at a time. Yep, lots of forms. When you get done, you have parts for chairs for the rest of the winter. It also saves energy to do a bunch at one time. I rigged up a pipe system from a local business that exhausts steam so its free and I don't have to fire up my propane system if I time it right.
Wood: go with red oak if you have the choice. I have bent hickory, put it on the wall and a month later I can not get a bit thru the stuff. No more.

Would send some photos or attach them here but I don't see how I can browse or attach. Oh well. If you send me an email message I'll send a photo or two. Love those windsors.
dan

Doug Mason
04-23-2009, 10:18 PM
Hey Bill,

I use kiln dried wood because I have not had the time to search for any air-dried wood (what with the job, the kid,......)--and i'm still experimenting (but very slowly); but yes, air-dried wood is the way to go. Anybody know of a ready source in the SF Bay area ?