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View Full Version : Marking Knives vs. Gauges... Thoughts?



Jason Zoellers
04-21-2009, 2:36 PM
Hello All,

First off, I have tried to find this answer elsewhere, but haven't had any luck so I figured I'd start a thread about it. So, I am a new woodworker and am enjoying it quite a bit. I really enjoy working with hand tools because of the feel and so that I can listen to music when I want! Honestly, I think my iPod is one of the few things in my shop that uses electricity! Not really opposed to power tools, but good hand tools let me work as late as I want, which given my schedule is a real plus. Anyway, I bought the 3 Musketeers of gauges (Marples), i.e. cutting, marking and mortising. I have a fair bit of practice with them and I think I have come to the conclusion that I don't like them. They seem more like the 3 Stooges post-Shemp, i.e. awkward and forced. As a result, I was wondering about marking knives and considering going over to them exclusively and selling my gauges. I have never used marking knives, so I don't know if they will work for what I want to do which is furniture making/joinery. I know Glen-Drake makes some different style of gauges, but they are pricey. For about 1/2 the cost, I could get 2 Blue Spruce marking knives and an awl. BTW, David says he'll make the awl "birdcage" style. Any advantage over that than what he sells standard? Basically, what do I need for what I want to do? I appreciate any help you all can give me.

Thank you for your time,

Jason

Sean Hughto
04-21-2009, 2:47 PM
Get a wheel gauge. They are not expensive. They work well and they mark against a reference face far more quickly and dependably than any marking knife guided by a straight edge.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=59455&cat=1,42936

Joel Moskowitz
04-21-2009, 2:53 PM
Gauges should not be hard to use.
here is a link on technique:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=8

Michael Sobik
04-21-2009, 3:01 PM
It sounds like you're saying you want to work with just a marking knife and no marking gauge. You can do things with a marking gauge that you can't do so easily with just a knife. Personally, I think you really need a marking gague. I use the LV wheel gauge Sean linked above. It's awesome. You can spend lots of money on a marking knife, but first try a small or medium Xacto knife with a standard #11 blade. No sharpening, and the tiny point comes in really handy.

Matt Hankins
04-21-2009, 3:14 PM
First, file down the pins on the marking and mortising gauges. File on one side, parallel to the gauge's shoulder, to create a knife edge. This should allow the gauge to cut instead of tear the wood fibers. Set the pins and knives so that they just scratch the wood. You are not looking to gouge the piece just put a small mark in it. make sure that the shoulder of the gauge is firmly registered against the edge of the piece. Pull the tool towards you and try to make your mark in one pass. If you can't see your line well, darken it with a sharp pencil.

The marking gauge is going to be far more precise than a knife and a square. The two tools take two hands. The marking gauge allows your free hand to secure the work piece. Having those gauges set also allows you to accurately mark more than one piece. Hopefully you find that you actually want more marking gauges. I agree with using a # 11 x-acto blade. They are easy to get and easy to replace.

Matt

Tim Thomas
04-21-2009, 3:28 PM
I second (or perhaps I should say third or fourth) the recommendation of a wheel gauge. I've got a cheaper model from ShopFox, but I've been happy with it after I spent a few minutes sharpening the cutting wheel. Out of the package it just wasn't quite sharp enough and I had to push down too hard.

As for a marking knife, you may want to eventually invest in a good one, but to see if you like the technique you can try out some of the super cheapo snap-off knives. I got a set of 4 of these in different sizes for just a dollar. Don't worry about sharpening them, just snap off the tip with a pair of needle nose pliers when they get dull. One advantage they have over any other kind of marking knife I have ever seen is that you can extend the blade all the way out of the handle to reach way down inside of tight areas where a normal knife handle would get in the way. Also, they are just darned handy in a woodshop for hundreds of different uses. I've always got one of these things in my pocket when I'm in the shop.

David Keller NC
04-21-2009, 3:48 PM
"I have never used marking knives, so I don't know if they will work for what I want to do which is furniture making/joinery. I know Glen-Drake makes some different style of gauges, but they are pricey. For about 1/2 the cost, I could get 2 Blue Spruce marking knives and an awl."

Jason - Marking knives and marking gauges are complimetary, not either/or. If you want to do primarily hand tool work, you must have both. For example, you cannot mark the pins on a dovetail joint with a marking gauge, and you cannot properly set the baseline on the same joint with a marking knife.

Regarding Glen Drake's gauges, there's good reason they're so popular. There are a lot of tools where a less expensive version is just as versatile and just as functional. This is not one of them. While his design wasn't completely original (there's an old Stanley design that has elements of his gauge), it is head and shoulders above anything else on the market, including the Lee Valley version and others (I've had a number of them, and sold them once I bought a Tite-Mark). A Tite-mark only looks expensive if you purchase every accessory - the basic gauge will set you back about $60, and it's a bargain and very much worth the money.

From the standpoint of a marking knife, you will not go wrong with David Jeske's version. There's also good reason that people buy Blue Spruce, Chester Toolworks, Czech Edge, and others, and it's not for looks. The problem with disposable exacto knives and unaltered pocket knives is that they're double-beveled, and it is very difficult, particularly for a beginner, to scribe accurate lines with a double-beveled blade.

If you wish to save cash (though not labor - in the end it's usually cheaper to just purchase a good tool than try to make your own), you can make a small bladed pocket knife work. What you will need to do is carefully grind back the blade so that a bevel remains on one side only. You will also likely find that you need a pair of these small knives - with the bevel ground on opposite sides. The reason is that you generally need to start at the bottom corner of a given pin space on a dovetail and scibe a line to the outside edge of the board - that can be quite awkward unless you have a left/right pair.

David (and others) design allieviates this problem, because while there is still a bevel on only one side of the knife, the knife is symmetrical so that it can be reversed for the other side of the pin.

Sean Hughto
04-21-2009, 4:02 PM
you cannot properly set the baseline on the same joint with a marking knife.

I'm sure it can be done -- with a knife and try square, for example -- but I agree it is not nearly as efficient to do so or, to use your word, "proper."

glenn bradley
04-21-2009, 4:02 PM
Like Tim, I bought the $10 Shop Fox and sharpened the wheel. Works fine. For a marking knife I use an X-acto knife and #11 blades. Both are not high on aesthetics. I like a cool looking tool as much as the next guy but the money I saved on a pricey knife and gauge helped buy my LV medium shoulder plane. I use a $3 awl as well but the pretty ones are very desirable . . . . Decisions, decisions ;-)

Jason Zoellers
04-21-2009, 6:21 PM
Hey all,

Thank you all for your responses. I read Joel's post and will have to give that a try. If that doesn't suit, I will come back and re-read the posts here. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that setting the fence is a fussy business. I will get it just right and it will move a bit when I tighten the screw. This is quite annoying and I am not sure how to deal with. Also, I have fairly small hands and find these gauges to be difficult to manage at times. I wish they felt like my other tools, which are all WONDERFUL, e.g. Ray Iles mortising chisels, LN saws and chisels. I have had enough hobbies to know that there is no substitue for good stuff. Well, keep the comments coming and help me if you can with what I've mentioned above.

Thanks again,

Jason

Bill Houghton
04-21-2009, 6:43 PM
I have occasionally had to run a knife against the end of a combination square's rule to scribe a line a distance from a reference edge. It's a supreme hassle compared to a marking gauge.

As David Keller points out, though, they're complementary tools. A marking gauge is not very good for scribing a line at 90 degrees or any other angle to a reference edge, such as for marking out the limits of a mortise or the length of a leg that you're going to cut off. There, you need a knife (or, less impressively, a scratch awl - a knife cuts a line, though, a good thing cross-grain). Lots of people use X-Acto knives; you don't need one made from titanium and pink ivory.

I have, all but one, marking gauges picked up at garage sales for $1, and they've served me just fine.

george wilson
04-21-2009, 9:29 PM
Jason,can you saw off a real short piece of dowel rod and take out the thumb screw. Drop the short piece of dowel into the threaded hole,and screw the thumbscrew in on top of it. The dowel will serve for the thumbscrew to rotate against,so that your fence doesn't get moved. Make sure both ends of the short dowel are parallel to each other.Cut them on a table saw with a zero clearance throat plate.

David Gendron
04-22-2009, 12:29 AM
Good idea George!
Thank you!
David

Derek Cohen
04-22-2009, 2:03 AM
Hi Jason

Here is a quick tip to using your Marples marking gauge, one to help achieve and keep the setting.

I see a lot of guys attempting to set their gauges using a ruler or chisel (one end against thefence and the other against the point). That is not how I do it. Here's how in stead ...

1. Mark the spot on the workpiece at the desired distance from the edge. Either awl point or, preferably, a knife stroke.

2. Now place the gauge point/wheel/knife in this mark.

3. Place the fence flush against the side of the workpiece.

4. Hold it there and tighten the fence screw.

Done.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Eric Brown
04-22-2009, 7:10 AM
In addition to the Tite-Marks he also has an interesting way of marking dovetails. In essence he skips marking with a knife and instead directly uses a "Kerf Starter". These tools are sized to match your saw thickness and cuts a groove for your saw to fall into. You can kerf first on side of the pins or tails, shift the board over (he also has a great set of feeler gages) and then kerf the other side. Using the feeler gages allows you to set whatever tolerance you want (or need) between the pins and tails. At one time he offered a free DVD showing how the system works. Well worth getting.

Eric

Robert Rozaieski
04-22-2009, 8:13 AM
Jason,

As has already been noted, you need both. You cannot scribe a board's thickness accurately with a marking knife, you must use a gauge. One thing to keep in mind when using the gauge is to drag the point, don't try to mark with it perfectly perpendicular to the stock. This simply won't work. In essence, you place the gauge on the stock with the point not contacting the wood and rotate the gauge until the point just touches the stock. Then mark by dragging the point behind. Make several passes if you need a deep scribe, rotating the gauge a little more with each pass to deepen the previous scribe. Also, gauges can be pushed or pulled depending upon which direction is easier for the situation. Don't think it can only be done one way. Wheel gauges are ok, but not necessary. Your Marples gauges should perform just fine. They are fine gauges. Just make minor changes to your technique and all should be well. As a side note, if you don't already have a marking knife you need that too so get one of those and keep the gauges you already have.

Regarding setting the fence, in case you missed it:

Hi Jason

Here is a quick tip to using your Marples marking gauge, one to help achieve and keep the setting.

I see a lot of guys attempting to set their gauges using a ruler or chisel (one end against thefence and the other against the point). That is not how I do it. Here's how in stead ...

1. Mark the spot on the workpiece at the desired distance from the edge. Either awl point or, preferably, a knife stroke.

2. Now place the gauge point/wheel/knife in this mark.

3. Place the fence flush against the side of the workpiece.

4. Hold it there and tighten the fence screw.

Done.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Derek is 100% right. I can't say any more than he already said. Put the ruler down and gauge your gauge setting ;).

Good luck!

Tom Henderson2
04-22-2009, 9:01 AM
Try a Tite-mark from Glen-Drake.... they are very first-class tools. Easy to adjust and their knives are quite sharp and cut easily.

Like most first-class tools, they aren't cheap. But they are worth it, IMHO.

-TH

David Keller NC
04-22-2009, 9:34 AM
you cannot properly set the baseline on the same joint with a marking knife.

I'm sure it can be done -- with a knife and try square, for example -- but I agree it is not nearly as efficient to do so or, to use your word, "proper."

This is sort of an aside to the OP's question, but there's good reason why this wasn't historically done (and a marking or cutting gauge was used instead). If you attempt to square a baseline with a try square and a knife, you're referencing off of each side of the board (one side for one baseline and the other side for the opposite side of the board). Unless the sides of the board are absolutely 90 degrees to the end (and I mean absolutely - within a few millimeters), the two scribed baselines will not be parallel with each other, which creates havoc when paring out the waste in a dovetail socket - if you pare from each side of the board down to the scribed line, the base of the socket will not be square, and the joint will have large gaps on one or the other side, and may even be skewed.

In the days of hand tools only, precisely 4-squaring a board took a lot of labor, and it makes a lot of sense to use a marking gauge that references off the end of the board instead, because the board's two edges can be slightly out of parallel and it will make no difference to the joint. The discrepancy (if any) is then planed out when the drawer's put together and fitted to the case.

In today's world of easy machine processes, it makes more sense that you could maybe get away with scribing the the two baselines of a dovetail joint with a square and a knife, but even then, the square has to be absolutely accurate, and the trip through the table saw to rip the board parallel must be absolutely accurate.

Sean Hughto
04-22-2009, 10:04 AM
I think your points are well taken (I hope I have been clear that I don't advocate using a marking knife for this job, but only wanted to help newbies understand why it is not optimal) . Reference edges are tricky things and worth paying close attention to. While the long edges can be out of parallel, you need to choose one as the reference for getting the ends "square" and parallel to each other (otherwise you'll have a wind in your drawer - which might be planed out of the sides, but will cause havoc with the bottom and it's groove or rabbet).

David Keller NC
04-22-2009, 10:20 AM
While the long edges can be out of parallel, you need to choose one as the reference for getting the ends "square" and parallel to each other (otherwise you'll have a wind in your drawer - which might be planed out of the sides, but will cause havoc with the bottom and it's groove or rabbet).

Sean - Yeah, I agree - in my particular case, I choose one of the edges by default by shooting the end grain on a shooting board (and I mark it as such), though the edges don't have to be precisely parallel. Most of the original drawers I've seen on antiques have very smooth end grain on the back through-dovetails, which might indicate that the end grain was planed. But unfortunately there's no way to know whether the original craftsman shot the end grain to square the board after sawing, or planed it smooth after the drawer was assembled.

Adam Cherubini
04-22-2009, 12:41 PM
Try a Tite-mark from Glen-Drake.... they are very first-class tools. Easy to adjust and their knives are quite sharp and cut easily.

Like most first-class tools, they aren't cheap. But they are worth it, IMHO.

-TH
See, I think that's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. You file your points carefully. Mine are little half footballs. And you drag your pin.

One thing missing here (or maybe I missed it) is that these tools are marking GAUGES. They are designed to transfer dimensions. I almost never set a gauge to a ruler. When doing dts', you set your gauge to the mating board's thickness (for thru dts). While you're at it, you run the gauge along the edge to inspect for uniformity. Then that dimension is transferred. I use chisels as "gauge blocks", which I think is something machinsts do.

To the OP, this is a problem you need to throw time at, not money. Gauges have been around for 1000 years. Spend some time, tweak your gauges or make new one's and learn to use them correctly and you'll be happy you did. Used correctly, gauges will improve the accuracy of your work. My tip is avoid using your rulers/tape measures. Rulers work okay for inital rough layout or carpentry. For cabinet work, you are really better off to match, slave, and gauge features.

That's my 2d anyway.

Adam

Danny Thompson
04-22-2009, 1:37 PM
Adam,

Nice insight into guaging. Care to comment about the marking knife--when to use it rather than a guage?

Bill Houghton
04-22-2009, 2:11 PM
Jason,can you saw off a real short piece of dowel rod and take out the thumb screw. Drop the short piece of dowel into the threaded hole,and screw the thumbscrew in on top of it. The dowel will serve for the thumbscrew to rotate against,so that your fence doesn't get moved. Make sure both ends of the short dowel are parallel to each other.Cut them on a table saw with a zero clearance throat plate.

Marking gauges of good quality traditionally had a foot of some kind - Stanley used a brass casting, no longer available; the unknown-maker mortise gauge I need to tune up uses a little flat piece of brass.

You can get brass sheet at the hardware store in various thicknesses, not much money. I'd use something fairly thick, like 1/16". If you've got an appropriate tool to make a notch in the gauge's fence block on the screw side (chisel, small file, sandpaper on a chunk of wood, well-trained termite), you can bend your own foot very easily - it should bend up on each side of the block, so it won't escape, so you'll wind up with a flat "U" shape with very short upward legs and a base as long as the thickness of the fence block (or, if this will interfere with the use, cut out a wee notch on the fence face too, for the upward leg to sit in). This will put a barrier between screw and beam, so that the torquing effect of the screw end isn't transferred to the beam.

It's the same principle as George Wilson's chunk of dowel, but maybe a little less likely to get crushed over time.

Robert Rozaieski
04-22-2009, 2:58 PM
Adam,

Nice insight into guaging. Care to comment about the marking knife--when to use it rather than a guage?
I'm not Adam but I use mine for just about every marking task that doesn't need to be gauged. This includes marking stock length, scribing mortise ends, scribing tenon shoulders, transferring the location of elements (e.g. mortise ends or tenon shoulders) across multiple pieces, striking long straight lines like tapers for tapered legs (I use the awl side for that), transferring the location of tails to their mating pin board, scribing dovetail angles with the aid of a bevel (I don't just cut them by eye), and squaring the tails across the end grain. Besides marking tasks, I also use my knife for sharpening pencils, removing minor glue squeezout from tight areas, cutting open plastic bags and packaging materials for hardware, cleaning out clogged plane throats (again, the awl end for this) and occasionally it comes in handy for minor clean out of half blind dovetail corners since the blade is skewed. :D It's an indispensible tool.

Mac Houtz
04-22-2009, 4:04 PM
I promise I am not as big a neophyte as this stupid question will make me out to be, and I am sure I could come by the answer just as easily by reading the instructions more carefully, but this thread made me think of it...

I have used pin-style marking gauges for several years with no problems, but received the veritas cutting wheel style gauge as a Christmas gift last year. After trying it out a few times, I never could get it to function as I suspected it was designed to, and now it stays in the drawer while I use my trusty pin gauge. The cutting wheel seems like it is supposed to spin, but in my case it doesn't, and I also recall having trouble getting it to remain set at the depth I wanted.

I am sure the main problem here is operator error, but has anyone else had any trouble learning to use these vs. a pin style gauge?

Robert Rozaieski
04-22-2009, 8:11 PM
I have used pin-style marking gauges for several years with no problems, but received the veritas cutting wheel style gauge as a Christmas gift last year. After trying it out a few times, I never could get it to function as I suspected it was designed to, and now it stays in the drawer while I use my trusty pin gauge. The cutting wheel seems like it is supposed to spin, but in my case it doesn't, and I also recall having trouble getting it to remain set at the depth I wanted.

No, it shouldn't spin. Think of it as a circular knife blade. If spun it would simply roll on the surface rather than slicing.

Jeff Willard
04-23-2009, 7:19 PM
Hey all,

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that setting the fence is a fussy business.


This is where the Tite-Mark excels. I have one and that's the very reason I picked it up, it has a micrometer adjustment. If the price puts you off, Lee Valley has a similar version that isn't quite as spendy, and I'm sure it functions just as well. If it turns out that you don't really care for it, it could probably be sold for nearly what you paid, or swapped for something you find more useful. I have the feeling you won't, though.

Derek Cohen
04-24-2009, 5:37 AM
Jeff

I have the Titemark as well as a couple of other gauges (you can't have enough gauges!). The TM's micrometer function is indeed excellent. Nevertheless, the best way to a setting is to do so against the work, not with a scale/ruler, as I described earlier on.

I have a couple of Japanese cutting gauges. These mark wonderful lines. But they would be impossible to use if one did not follow the method of setting them up against the marks (they are mortice gauges but I also use them to scribe single lines).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/JMarkinggauge1.jpg

And here is one I made. This has a reversable fence for either straight or curved work ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Marking-cuttinggauge2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek