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Tom Adger
04-23-2009, 2:10 PM
I want to buy a #5 jack plane. There have been several Bedrock 605's that have sold on ebay for $90-95., and there are more on the way.I am torn between getting one there, or buying something like the Wood River from Wodcraft. I just got the latest issue of Popular Woodworking, and it is reviewed there. I am concerned about the deficiencies found. I would love to buy a LN, but the price is way over my budget.

I am leaning toward Bedrocks on ebay. What would be a fair price range to pay for one that is somewhere between pristine and not so good? I am uneasy about buying just based on some pictures and a description, but I guess that is all I will have to go on.

Also, garage sales and Craigslist are pretty slim in my area.

Sean Hughto
04-23-2009, 2:47 PM
If you are worried about ebay (I've bought several planes that way over many years and rarely been disappointed), you could alsways contact a vintage tool dealer and ask for a "user" (perfectly functional but has been used enough that it is less attractive to collectors). One I've often bought from is Patrick Leach - www.supertool.com (http://www.supertool.com). There are many others.

If you just want a jack (5), why do you feel the need to have a bedrock? A regular vintage 5 (1930's or earlier is what I would recommend) can be had in the $35 to $50 range. This will leave plenty of extra to buy a LN or Hock Stanley replacement blade and really make that Jack hum.

scott spencer
04-23-2009, 3:42 PM
The Wood River planes are made in China, and likely won't have the metallurgy quality or the machining of even an older Bailey, Record, Millers Falls, or Bedrock. The Bedrocks have better fine adjustments than some, and are well made, but aren't necessarily head and shoulders more capable than the others mentioned above. Many of the older planes have already been flattened and tuned at some point in their lives, so it often isn't much work unless they're in really bad shape and/or have never been tuned right. It really boils down to setup and cutter sharpness, and which ones you like best.

Erik Manchester
04-23-2009, 3:59 PM
Tom, I echo Sean's comment that a well tuned Bailey with an aftermarket blade such as Hock, LN, or LV will outperform a Bedrock with an original Stanley blade. Leave the Bedrocks for collectors with extra coin to spend as you can buy a good user and a premium blade for less than a Bedrock. My personal favorites are early Millers Falls and all are excellent users, though I have a Stanley 4, 4.5 and a 6 that I also use frequently.

lowell holmes
04-23-2009, 5:50 PM
I have three ebay bedrocks I have Hock irons and Clifton breakers in them. I find that they are close to the LN 4 1/2 I have.
I have some Baileys that are sharpened properly and they do an excellent job. I have a 5 1/2 Bailey that is as good as any plane that I have. Don't be afraid of the ebay baileys.

Jim Koepke
04-23-2009, 5:54 PM
There are two Bailey #5s in my shop. One has a hock blade and one has a later Stanley replacement blade, if my memory is working, it is a made in Canada blade. Just because of where they set in relation to the bench, the Stanley bladed plane gets picked up more often. Hock blades are nice, but they can be saved for the final smoothing planes. (IMO & OMO)

With that said, I just bought a Hock blade for my #8 since it wasn't much more than a Stanley of the same size. My preference is to have at least one spare blade for my planes. They can be found today, not sure what it will be like in 10, 20 or 30 years.

jim

David Gendron
04-23-2009, 8:18 PM
Go for the bedrock on ebay, anything below a $100 is a good deal to me!
David

Dewey Torres
04-23-2009, 9:05 PM
Tom,
Don't over look the early 1900s Keen Kutter with the single K... they are in the same class as the bedrocks, a lot cheaper, and yes I own both.
Dewey

David Gendron
04-23-2009, 9:19 PM
what do you meen by single K??
David

Dewey Torres
04-23-2009, 9:22 PM
what do you meen by single K??
David

Do a search on the bay for Keen Kutter planes and you will see most of them are KK #5 for example

what you want is K #5

The K or KK will be right on the front of the plane body followed by a number

Dewey Torres
04-23-2009, 9:25 PM
This item is a single K 4 1/2... good plane but a bit pricey... you get the idea.
320361779831http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/globalAssets/rtCurve.gif

Stu Gillard
04-23-2009, 9:30 PM
I just picked up a Millers Falls #14 (#5 equivalent), with the 2 piece lever cap arrangement for around the $15 US mark off the Bay. I do own a Stanley 5, but needer another jack plane so as to not interrupt a job with a sharpening session (I use a lot of recycled timber, and #5's are great for cleaning up old boards). This plane has turned out to be a fine user.
I'd love a Bedrock, but here in Australia they go for a very pretty penny.

Charles Shenk
04-23-2009, 10:52 PM
I find that the old tools have much more coolness factor which counts for something. :rolleyes:

Rob Fargher
04-23-2009, 11:12 PM
Do the LN or Hock replacement blades fit Miller Falls planes? I have a MF No. 9 (equivalent to a Stanley #4) and was wondering if one of those blades would be a good upgrade.

--
Cheers,
Rob

Carl Maeda-San Diego
04-23-2009, 11:49 PM
One thing to note is that Union planes have thicker irons or blades (just make sure they have the original blade when you purchase it)
With that said, I never had a need to purchase an aftermarket blade. I have a few friends that do have hock blades and I think its' only necessary when you need to take heavy cuts. What do you think?

David Gendron
04-24-2009, 12:02 AM
Thank you, I get it!
David

Jim Koepke
04-24-2009, 2:04 AM
I have a few friends that do have hock blades and I think its' only necessary when you need to take heavy cuts. What do you think?

Hock blades come in two flavors, High Carbon and A1. The A1 holds an edge longer. In theory, the High Carbon will take a sharper edge. In some woods, the thicker blade will actually help in taking a lighter cut because of the tendency toward less vibration (chatter).

I tried a Hock HC blade in my #8 today (type 6a+). It can take a light cut that leaves a glass like surface. It is a little better at that than the original Stanley type 11 blade that was in the plane. No adjustment was made to the frog, so it may be the thicker blade making a tighter mouth is also having some effect.

jim

Erik Manchester
04-24-2009, 6:13 AM
Rob,

Yes, the aftermarket blades for Stanley planes are interchangeable with Millers Falls planes of the equivalent size. The thicker blades aval aftermarket will reduce the potential for chatter, but whether they are necessary depends on the work that you do with them.

Erik

George Sanders
04-24-2009, 7:38 AM
I have both a #5bedrock and a single K Keen-Kutter #5. Both have corrugated soles. The K-5 has a lot more heft than the Bedrock and is slightly longer too. I reach for it far more often than my bedrock.

george wilson
04-24-2009, 6:53 PM
Keen Kutter made very high quality tools.they also are collectible,and can be pricey.I have a Keen Kutter drawknife that I paid $1.00 for in the 60's. It holds an edge very well indeed.

Tom Adger
04-24-2009, 9:55 PM
I appreciate all your replys. Lots to think about. I already have my new Hock blade tuned up and ready to go into whatever I buy.

Rob Fargher
04-25-2009, 1:54 AM
Rob,

Yes, the aftermarket blades for Stanley planes are interchangeable with Millers Falls planes of the equivalent size. The thicker blades aval aftermarket will reduce the potential for chatter, but whether they are necessary depends on the work that you do with them.

Erik

Thanks Erik. I'm a newbie neander wannabe so I don't really know what work I'll be doing with it. But I do know that I like to use good tools. :D

From a thread on the Canadian Woodworking forum today:
"The bottom line is we can't properly explain to you what a terrible idea it is to try to start with a lousy, low quality plane. I wish my first experience with a hand plane would have been with a quality, properly tuned plane. How many years did I flounder not knowing what a plane was really able to do.
Hand tools were born from apprenticeship, and in the modern world, that initial learning curve is a little difficult to get through. Most people that I talk to started off with a plane that is comparably as bad as the Groz that you are looking at, but almost all of them NEVER actually end up successfully get them to work so they end up on the shelf or in the garbage.
Save yourself from the "My first bad hand tool purchase" regret. Or go get it and kick yourself later. Either way, I doubt it will ever attain "user tool" status.
Discovering hand tools is like discovering girls. You just don't get what all the fuss is about, until you get what he fuss is about." - ERic in Nova Scotia.

That resonates with me and I'd like to get what all the fuss is about. No, it wasn't me that was considering a Groz. :)

--
Cheers,
Rob

Philip Duffy
04-25-2009, 4:01 AM
Stu, I too have a MF #14 and use it as my final finish plane. NO other plane will outperform the cutting of my #14! I think we are both lucky to have not gotten sucked into the abayss of Bedrock. The cost savings outperforms the cutting costs! Phil

Mike Cutler
04-25-2009, 6:38 AM
Tom

I don't think there really is a "price range" per se. There are so many different variable. Type, condition size, etc. I paid $5.00 for a Stanley #5 a few months back, along with paying $3.00 for a Stanley 3C. Both plane were complete with all parts, and just needed some cleaning.

It's interesting the differing opinions on plane makers. I have 2 Stanley #5's, and MF 14 and a LN #5. They all pretty much seem to do the job.;)

I got to check out the Keen Kutter planes. I have a Keen Kutter miter box I bought here on the board, and it's really cool.:cool:

Jim Koepke
04-25-2009, 12:53 PM
Tom

I don't think there really is a "price range" per se. There are so many different variable. Type, condition size, etc. I paid $5.00 for a Stanley #5 a few months back, along with paying $3.00 for a Stanley 3C. Both plane were complete with all parts, and just needed some cleaning.

It's interesting the differing opinions on plane makers. I have 2 Stanley #5's, and MF 14 and a LN #5. They all pretty much seem to do the job.;)

I got to check out the Keen Kutter planes. I have a Keen Kutter miter box I bought here on the board, and it's really cool.:cool:

Some people do not have or want to put a little time into the rehabilitation of an old tool. For me, this provides more enjoyment than just unpacking a box and putting the tool to work. The new tool does have a better feel to the senses at first. The old tool can be brought to a state to match this feel.

I did not know diddly about about tuning or using hand planes a decade or so ago. I knew they shaved wood. With perseverance and the internet I learned sharpening and many other aspects of making a plane work.

As far as the differing opinions on plane makers, it is likely just a case of what makes folks comfortable. The "feel" of planes is all over the place. On my bigger planes, the totes are often cut, filed, sanded and fitted to my hands. A little work for a lot of comfort in use. Some of the bottom of the barrel makers and even "economy" planes made by Stanley can be made to work, they just do not work as well as a better made fine tuned plane.

jim

David Keller NC
04-25-2009, 1:25 PM
Tom - A suggestion. If e-bay gives you the willies, you may want to contact the local chapter of the MWTCA (Mid West Tool Collector's Association). The name's a bit of a misnomer - it's a national organization with many local chapters, and a whole lot of individuals that belong and attend the meets aren't collectors, they're users.

More than likely you've at least a few members in your area, and they're likely to know someone that's a tool dealer that doesn't advertise and do business on the web - these guys typically have boxes and boxes of Stanley tools, and won't charge you a lot for one. You also get to hold it before you buy it.

Regarding a Bedrock - the basic difference between a Bedrock and a "Bailey" plane is the frog design, and the casting. The Bedrock castings were heavier, and in some cases and eras the machining was a bit better. However, the difference in machining on an antique is often overwhelmed by the tool's history - a mint in the box Bailey beats a carpenter's Bedrock that was heavliy used every time.

The frog design is, in many cases for many users, irrelevant. The Bedrock design allows one to close the mouth on the plane without removing the lever cap and blade. In my experience (and I'm a heavy hand tool user), this is almost never necessary. One typically has a roughing plane (like a Jack or a Fore) with an open mouth, a jointer with a slightly tighter mouth, and a smoothing plane with a very tight mouth. Both the Bailey and Bedrock planes can be set up this way (open or closed throats), and once you do, it's probably unlikely that you'll mess with that setting on a regular basis.

I recommend that newbies start with a Lee Valley or a Lie Nielsen because they come ready to go out of the box except for lightly honing the blade, and you'll know how a plane should perform so you know what to shoot for in tuning up an antique. If that's not possible though, an antique Bailey will work just fine once any problems are corrected. While it's easier to have a knowledgeable someone show you how to do that in person, you can also get what you need to know from this forum - lots of us use tuned up old Stanleys (and Millers Falls, Keen Kutter, Union Tool, etc...)

David Gendron
04-25-2009, 2:52 PM
But I prefer Toyota over Nissan... Oups wrong forum!

David Keller NC
04-25-2009, 3:17 PM
"I tried a Hock HC blade in my #8 today (type 6a+). It can take a light cut that leaves a glass like surface. It is a little better at that than the original Stanley type 11 blade that was in the plane. No adjustment was made to the frog, so it may be the thicker blade making a tighter mouth is also having some effect."

Jim - I've replaced all of my Stanley blades with Hocks, if for no other reason than to preserve the original. That might be kind of ridiculous for common-as-dirt Stanleys, but then again 18th century wooden planes were probably common in American in the 1820's.

But I've found, and would be interested in what you think after using it for a while, is that the Hock blades hold an edge better than any other in my shop - including Lie-Nielsen's A2s, older W-1s, and the original Stanleys. The only antique that comes close is an I. Sorby "Punch" brand (not to be confused with "R. Sorby" - two totally different furms) in an antique British infill, and blades with that mark are quite expensive on the used market, often exceeding the price of new Hocks, whether A1 or O1 steel.

Jim Koepke
04-25-2009, 8:28 PM
But I've found, and would be interested in what you think after using it for a while, is that the Hock blades hold an edge better than any other in my shop

My Hock blades are all High Carbon, not A1 or A2. They are not as hard as some of the other blades. They do seem to hold an edge better than the original Stanley blades. I do not have any other blades to compare with them.

jim

Harlan Barnhart
04-27-2009, 10:19 PM
I just Ebayed a Keen Kutter K6 with the bedrock design for $28 plus $10 shipping, and am very happy with it. It had been painted with a brush but that is of little concern to me since I intend on using it, not looking at it. Most of that paint cleaned off anyway.
-Harlan

Dewey Torres
04-28-2009, 1:15 AM
I just Ebayed a Keen Kutter K6 with the bedrock design for $28 plus $10 shipping, and am very happy with it. It had been painted with a brush but that is of little concern to me since I intend on using it, not looking at it. Most of that paint cleaned off anyway.
-Harlan

Harlen,
Welcome to the creek! You just helped me make my point on the Keen Kutters. You should start a thread and introduce yourself:)

Harlan Barnhart
04-29-2009, 5:38 PM
Harlen,
Welcome to the creek! You just helped me make my point on the Keen Kutters. You should start a thread and introduce yourself:)


Thanks for the welcome. I'm one of those "lurkers" who don't post. I considered posting an introduction but didn't know if or how it is generally done.

Jay Kir
05-14-2009, 9:46 AM
The Bedrock design is overrated, except for the weight. "The Bedrock is supposed to hold the blade all the way to the bottom of the bed". What is seldom mentioned is that the bottom of the bed _that supports the blade_ ends where the bevel begins. If you peak from the sole into the mouth and the bevel, you'll see that very clearly. The portion of the Bedrock bed that reaches below the bevel is wasted. You can then calculate the trig functions given a length and angle of the beveled portion (45* bed, 25* grind, etc.) and you'll see that it's a wash: Bedrock or no Bedrock, the blade is supported right up to where the bevel begins by both types (the casting thickness (below the frog) reaches to about where the bevel begins. So it's counterintuitive: the thinner the casting, the more the frog of a non-Bedrock supports the blade. But if both casting and frog are one unit, then it's doesn't matter what type of frog you have, or how thick the casting is. (an aside: sole castings after type 14 are thinner than previous ones. The front and back 'lips' are only on the edges, giving the illusion of a thicker bed).

On another note, the famous types. Type 11 is where Stanley started manufacturing the frog-adjusting screw mechanism. I have a type 10 and some type 11. You don't adjust the frog that often, as has been said before. So it doesn't matter whether your plane has that mechanism or not. The only thing it would add is some degree of security by holding the frog a bit more than the 2 screws that secure it from above. But that is minimal.

Regarding brands: Yes, it's nice to have what everyone covets. But will you feel less if you have something that works well? A Sargent will work just as well as a Union plane, without the cache or the aura. Will you want the cache? Is money an object? If not, go for the pricier flat side Bedrock. (Ergonomics are another matter, too personal to get into. Try what your friends have)

Woodriver brands. I saw a short video in which Christopher Schwartz was trying to compare the material strength of block planes, from old Stanleys to the newer Woodriver versions. It's available still somewhere, maybe on his blog. He hammered the Stanley, which is made of cast iron, and it shattered after 2 blows as expected. Then he hammered the Woodriver block plane and it didn't shatter after 3 blows or more. It was funny to see how disappointed he was to find out that the Woodriver didn't shatter as he had expected and had to admit they were made of durable material.

Controversial:
The envirnoment: If you want to help the environment, buy used planes: it doen'st use up materials and helps the economy one way. There are plenty of them around, and all it takes is a little time and patience to get them going. If you don't have either, and have money to burn, go for the newest. It doesn't help the envirnoment and it helps the economy a different way.

Jay