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Marc Casebolt
04-26-2009, 7:20 PM
Hello to all,

I have been in the neander mode for a short time, and one of the big issues right now for me is getting the ends of boards square, and doing 45 degree miters. I have made a shooting board (for square only so far), but am having one heck of a time getting decent results. I have a Veritas #5 equivalent that does not work too well, so I tried a #7 stanley with a nice sharp Hock blade, and that does not work so well either. They both just seem to bind up in the cut, and I think it's because I can't seem to get a proper grip on the things to push it through. I hope this is making sense.

I am wondering how many of you have a miter plane. One of those square sided contraptions made to use on its side. LN sells one that I think is a #9 or some such. Do these things work a whole lot better, (like $375.00) better than a regular plane on its side? Let's just say you had the cash burning a hole in your pocket, is it something you would get?

Thanks,

Marc

David DeCristoforo
04-26-2009, 8:05 PM
How sharp is "good and sharp"? You should be able to clean the hair off your arm with approximately zero effort. Anything less in end grain is a lost cause. Once you have the plane cutting "right" (that sharp and really fine settings) getting square cuts will be much easier.

Robert Rozaieski
04-26-2009, 8:43 PM
If they are binding up it is likely you are trying to take too thick of a shaving. You need to take a pretty thin cut in end grain, even with an extremely sharp iron.

Jim Nardi
04-26-2009, 8:45 PM
Take the planes blade out and see if you can shave end grain off easily. If not keep on sharpening. Technique is to engage the blade and smoothly slide on thru the cut. Don't ram the cut.

Michael Faurot
04-26-2009, 8:49 PM
A bench plane like a #5 or #7 is going to have its blade bedded at 45°. This will work, but the blade does need to very sharp. When trying to square up end grain, it's better to have a lower angle, which will in turn make it easier slice through. What's been working really nicely, for me, is the Veritas low angle jack plane.

Something to try, that might help with planes you've all ready got, is to wet the ends you're attempting to square with some mineral spirits. That'll make it easier to slice through and lubricate things a bit as well.

David Gendron
04-26-2009, 8:59 PM
I use a #4 smooth plane with decent results, but if you want realy good result with out having a dedicated mitre plane, try to find a LA BU plane like a BU jack plane that would do great and that you can use for other tasks!
David

Dominic Greco
04-26-2009, 9:14 PM
Hello to all,

I have been in the neander mode for a short time, and one of the big issues right now for me is getting the ends of boards square, and doing 45 degree miters. I have made a shooting board (for square only so far), but am having one heck of a time getting decent results. I have a Veritas #5 equivalent that does not work too well, so I tried a #7 stanley with a nice sharp Hock blade, and that does not work so well either. They both just seem to bind up in the cut, and I think it's because I can't seem to get a proper grip on the things to push it through. I hope this is making sense.

I am wondering how many of you have a miter plane. One of those square sided contraptions made to use on its side. LN sells one that I think is a #9 or some such. Do these things work a whole lot better, (like $375.00) better than a regular plane on its side? Let's just say you had the cash burning a hole in your pocket, is it something you would get?

Thanks,

Marc

Marc,
I have a LN#9 that I got for a real good price. I use it on my shoot board on just about every project that comes through my shop. Here it is with the first version of my shoot board (I've since upgraded the fence a whole lot)

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/LN_9_a-1.jpg

Since I got it for such a good deal, I avoided a lot of buyer's remorse. BUT if I had to do it over again I probably would have purchased a LV LA Jack plane. That is one versatile plane! It can be used like a regular jack or on it's side on a shoot board. It's mass makes it just right for powering through tough end grain. Before I got the LN#9 I used a LV LA Smoother on my shoot board it worked darn well! I imagine that the LA Jack would work even better.

In answer to your other question, once you have a sharp blade you also need to get used to taking small "bites" when shooting end grain. Once you get the setting, you can feel the plane taking a bit and the resulting finish is smooth as can be.

Also, you need to check your shoot board every once in a while to make sure it's fence is 90 deg to the plane (or 45 deg for a miter). That's where having a fence you can adjust is REAL handy!:D

Bill Houghton
04-26-2009, 11:05 PM
It takes a while to learn to sharpen; then it takes forever to perfect it.

And, even after 35 years, I sometimes get excited and set a plane for too coarse a cut. For miter trimming, you should have it set so that, sighting along the sole of the plane, you're not quite sure whether you can see the iron or not. If that doesn't cut, advance it a thin smidgen and try again until you're juuuuust cutting. You can experiment up from there, but slowly.

Always try to exhaust the capabilities of the tools you have before buying new ones (and if I always took my own advice, my shop would have fewer tools, but I try...).

Charles R. Smith
04-26-2009, 11:12 PM
I would underscore Dominic Greco's opinion. I love my LN mitre plane, but the LV low-angle jack would do just as good a job and is sufficiently versatile that it would also subtend a variety of other tasks. Nevertheless, start with a really, really sharp blade on your current plane before spending more money.
Charles (who has yet to make the perfect shooting board)

Marc Casebolt
04-26-2009, 11:16 PM
Thanks for the replies,

As for sharpness, you are almost certainly right about that. I am getting better at sharpening, but have some way to go yet. There are times when I get an edge so stupidly sharp that it almost scares me, and others when I fight with it to get a decent edge. Practice, practice .... I seem to be able to do chisels easier that plane blades.

Take thinner shavings. This is true that I am probably trying to take too much with each pass. It make sense to go slower, and this is what I need to work on the most.

Mineral spirits. OK I'll try that too.

LA BU jack. I've read a lot about using this plane with a shooting board, and it's cheaper than the miter plane. Is this the one that most would recomend?

I'm not looking for a magic bullit here. I know I have a lot to learn, and many skills to develope, I just want to take advantage of the brain power of the Creek and avoid at least some of the trial and error.

Thank you for your time,

Marc

Tri Hoang
04-26-2009, 11:19 PM
How sharp is "good and sharp"? You should be able to clean the hair off your arm with approximately zero effort. Anything less in end grain is a lost cause. Once you have the plane cutting "right" (that sharp and really fine settings) getting square cuts will be much easier.

Amen. Lower bevel angle helps, too. I have the Veritas BU jack and use it quite comfortably for shooting. I'd also like to add that personally, I've enjoyed planes a lot more since I take the time to improve my sharpening skill. The time invested here is well spent.

Jim Koepke
04-27-2009, 2:28 AM
All the advise above seems good.

Three things to remember: sharpen, sharpen and sharpen. My abilities have become quite good over the years yet still think I can do better at sharpening.

When end grain is planed, a continuous shaving is my goal. A year ago, I was getting dust off the end grain and thought that was pretty good. One can learn a lot in a short time if one keeps at it.

For my being a plane sucker a #9 miter plane would surely be a welcomed toy in the shop.

My opinion though is that a Low Angle Bevel Up plane would be more versatile and a better tool investment. So far, there is not one of these in my shop.

What is in my shop are a few low angle block planes that are great for shooting or cleaning up cuts. They do not have the mass of a bigger plane, so some effort has to be applied when shooting.

When a plane like a #5 is used for shooting, the blade is often set using another piece to take the lightest shaving possible before shooting the end grain.

Often, I square a board's end using a block plane with out the shooting board.

jim

Mike Cutler
04-27-2009, 5:28 AM
Marc

I have the LN #9 and it is a wonderful tool. It is by definition a block plane, I think the effective angle is 45 degrees. All you are really looking for is a plane that is square to the sides, and a good sharp blade. I have an LN Low Angle Smoother that works very well on the shooting board. I'm sure my Low Angle Jack would work well too.
I will ask what kind of wood are you trying to shoot? My experience with domestic hardwoods is pretty good, and the plane can be a little less than sharp and still work well, but if you get into the really hard, dense, oily tropicals, it's going to have to be better than sharp.

You don't necessarily need a #9, but it is a really nice plane to have on hand.;)

Karelian Tonttu
04-27-2009, 7:54 AM
If you are getting inconsistent sharpness, how about getting a honing guide? That should help you to get a consistent and good result. Search and read up on some sharpening discussion here or elsewhere. Don't need to get fancy, just follow some basic stuff others are doing and that should be a good start. I like Veritas Mk.II honing guide and I highly recommend it. Besides if you got a Veritas No. 5, that's a good plane even though low angle plane would make it easier for end grain, it's certainly a capable plane with a bit of adjustment. The thing is, even if you get a dedicated miter plane, if blade isn't sharp and not setup correctly for the wood you are working with, it's not going to give you a good result. After all, it's the blade that does the job, so blade has to be in good order before anything else. You already have a good plane, so I would say, focus on the sharpening.

Another thing is if you are trying to take thick shaving to speed thing up, do it a bit differently. If there is a lot to remove, chisel away the majority of waste, take away bumps and make it close to the end result (doesn't have to be super close, just enough so that you don't spend a lot of time pushing plane back and forth) and then just clean up the end with a plane set for fine cut. Planing end grain is certainly a slower process than doing face grain, but go slow, check result and adjust accordingly. In the end, it's faster than having to do it all over again.

As for plane, I'm for Veritas LA Jack if you want my opinion. I have one and I use it for planing face, end and jointing. It's a good versatile plane and price is right. But I do find it a bit awkward to hold when I use it on its side, though. I think making or finding a suitable hod dog grip would make it more comfortable.

But I think what's important is figuring out what you can do to achieve the result you are looking for with the tools you already have. If you had a stock Anant No. 5 (abomination of a plane I tell you), I would think getting a new plane is a good idea, but nah, you got a nice No. 5 already. So I think you are good to go. After all, generations of people before us made do with what they had, like taking super fine shavings with a big mouthed woodie and still producing amazing result, same with jointing or end planing, so certainly not an impossible task.

Derek Cohen
04-27-2009, 8:48 AM
Hi Marc

If you cannot take a shaving on a shooting board with a #7 or #5, then you will not do so with either a LN #9 or a Veritas LA Jack. I (and others) have no difficulty using high angle planes, such as a HNT Gordon Trying Plane, on a shooting board ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection_html_m3e129cd2.jpg

I would agree that the problem is that you .likely (a) do not have a sharp enough blade and (b) are taking too big a bite.

A LAJ makes a superb shooting plane, but it is not going to replace incorrect technique. I would practice more. You'll get it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Keller NC
04-27-2009, 11:31 AM
"Do these things work a whole lot better, (like $375.00) better than a regular plane on its side? Let's just say you had the cash burning a hole in your pocket, is it something you would get?"

The short answer to your question is yes, they do work a lot better than a bench plane on its side. I have one, and dozens of other planes besides (that I could use on a shooting board), but this is my go-to for end grain.

There's a couple of reasons for this - the large, perfectly 90 degree side on the plane makes a very stable platform for running on the bed of a shooting board, and the "hot dog" handle makes holding the plane square to the end of the board considerably easier than gripping the thin side wall of a bench plane. By the way - the side handle Dominic shows in his picture was an earlier version of the #9 - they were shipped both with that handle and an optional "hot dog". The current version deletes the side knob and is shipped with the hot dog handle as standard equipment. If you've an older version that did not include the hot dog, you can order one from L-N and it will fit.

So - I would heartily recommend the L-N #9, but as the other posters have noted, you should be able to get a standard bench plane to work on a shooting board. If you can't, it's likely to be the sharpness of the blade, too big of a cut, or too hard of a wood. To start with, you should practice with something soft like eastern white pine, poplar, aspen, etc... The end grain of something like maple or walnut is really hard, and you should graduate to these woods, not start with them.

Finally - I tend to stay out of the Lie-Nielsen/Lee Valley debates, because I think it's a preference with no clear winner, and saving less than $100 dollars on a tool that you'll spend your lifetime using is not a justification for picking one brand or another (the Lee Valleys tend to be cheaper, with the difference depending on the model). Nor do I think it's a good idea to have just a couple of planes and a bunch of interchangeable blades (and you can do that with either L-N or Lee Valley bevel up or bevel down planes).

However, this is one instance where the Lie-Nielsen low angle jack plane might offer a significant advantage - a hot dog handle can be ordered with the plane, and that makes using it as a shoot-board plane a lot easier.

My personal preference, of course, is the #9, but if you don't already have a jack plane, you may well be better off by buying a bevel up jack (of either brand).

David DeCristoforo
04-27-2009, 11:53 AM
One of those fine LV shooting planes would be nice. So would that sweet HNT Gordon trying plane Derek has there. But neither is going to work any better than what you have now if it is not SHARP and properly "tuned". I have a "crappy" Stanley low angle block plane that I can get "perfect" end grain shavings with when it's freshly sharpened. No doubt that the extra weight and "square box" construction of the LV plane will make it "easier" to shoot miters as long as it's set up properly.

Jim Koepke
04-27-2009, 12:11 PM
Let's just say you had the cash burning a hole in your pocket

If my wife was close enough to smell the smoke, the money would not be in my pocket long enough for me to figure out what new toy to buy.

jim

Richard Dooling
04-27-2009, 12:51 PM
Check out Derek Cohen's site. He's made a couple of hot dogs for the LV low angle jack.

Do your self a favor and spend some time on Derek's site - lots of good information and ideas from someone who obviously knows his stuff and explains it very well.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ go to shop made tools

Joe Cunningham
04-27-2009, 4:06 PM
I shoot with a Stanley #6 I got for $20--no one seems to like them much, so they are often cheaper than either the #5 or #7. It is the sharpest blade in my plane till and is the one I sharpen most often (I shoot every cross-cut). Nothing fancy, just the original blade. As others have mentioned, it is set to take a very light cut.

I bet those expensive planes work even better, but I spent my $$$ on high quality sharpening stones. Down the line I am sure I will get a dedicated low-angle plane of one sort or another for shooting.

Marc Casebolt
04-27-2009, 4:16 PM
Thanks again for all of your replies.

I will first work on my sharpening, and taking thinner cuts. The wood I'm using now is cherry, but it is on a fairly large cross section and that is where I am getting all the resistance to pushing through the cut. When I'm doing small pieces it goes fairly smoothly and I can get full sized shavings. I've said before that I really need to learn to go slowly with hand tools. The nearly instant gratification of using power is a hard thing for me to get over. I am really enjoying the challenges of all hand tools.

I'll save my cash for now and follow all of your good advice.

Thanks,

Marc

Peter Scoma
04-27-2009, 5:40 PM
There is no need for fancy shooting boards and hot dog planes that lay on their side. Just use a power planer! Remember to always make full depth cuts and to hold the workpiece with one hand while you cut with the other (no need for fancy dogs and cats to steady the piece.) :D

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/15635_power-planer-tear.htm

ps

David DeCristoforo
04-27-2009, 5:59 PM
"http://www.expertvillage.com/video/1...laner-tear.htm"

You gotta be kidding!?!? You are... aren't you? Please... DON'T WATCH THIS! RUN AWAY... VERY FAST!

Jim Koepke
04-27-2009, 5:59 PM
I've said before that I really need to learn to go slowly with hand tools. The nearly instant gratification of using power is a hard thing for me to get over.

My comment to people is hand tools are better because the mistakes happen slower.


There is no need for fancy shooting boards and hot dog planes that lay on their side. Just use a power planer! Remember to always make full depth cuts and to hold the workpiece with one hand while you cut with the other (no need for fancy dogs and cats to steady the piece.) :D

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/15635_power-planer-tear.htm

ps

My conclusion is that this guy makes videos because he obviously has injured himself and can no longer reproduce.

jim

Marc Casebolt
04-27-2009, 6:17 PM
COOL, a power planer. Problem solved!

Thanks guys,

Marc





Joking... really.

Peter Scoma
04-27-2009, 6:19 PM
"http://www.expertvillage.com/video/1...laner-tear.htm"

You gotta be kidding!?!? You are... aren't you? Please... DON'T WATCH THIS! RUN AWAY... VERY FAST!

LOL yes of course I am. Someone posted this video a while back and I am nearly addicted to it. Its like watching a 10 car pile up in slow motion. FYI the inanity of this video pales (by far) in comparison to Rob's "traditional handplanes vs. the power plane" video.

ps

David DeCristoforo
04-27-2009, 9:37 PM
"...his video pales (by far) in comparison..."

No... no, thank you... I've seen enough. (BTW I knew you were kidding... at least I was pretty sure.. that is I was hoping you were... I mean well really... (ahem) oh, never mind.)

David Keller NC
04-28-2009, 10:26 AM
I wonder if we could get together a petition of SMC members to send to OSHA to get this guy taken off of the net. I've little doubt that his antics is going to cost a newbie somewhere a few fingers.

Chuck Hamman
05-07-2009, 11:04 PM
All you naysayers. If you had bothered to read the video transcript, you would have realized that while you all are describing how to shoot end grain, "expert" Rob is in fact describing the little known procedure of planing ingrain.
As anyone knows, the only way to shoot ingrain is freehand, with a power planer set at full depth. One must also be willing to sacrifice all the digits on your left hand.

Regards,
-Chuck
Video Transcript

Avoiding a Tear Out When Using Hand Held Power Planer
Rob McMahon with Expert Village. One nice thing about a power planer is that it works on ingrain. Now we are going to resquare this rounded end here. What you want to do is avoid the tear out of the ingrain. When you are coming in this direction, this last little area is going to want to blow out, so we will take it to full d

Ryan Stagg
05-08-2009, 10:54 AM
This article was illuminating too:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2215968_compare-hand-planes-versus-power.html

In particular:

Notice a cleaner cut when you use a power planer rather than the old hand planer. A power planer that is used to cut with the wood grain has a more controlled cut and cleaner cut.

:eek:

Mark Roderick
05-08-2009, 1:40 PM
I use a Lie-Nielsen low angle jack and it works great. With that said, if money were no object I'd get one of those square-shaped planes made for the purpose.