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Mike Brady
12-13-2011, 5:34 PM
I have a new Chosera 10,000 grit stone. It is the only non-Norton Water stone that I have, and it has a much different feel than the Nortons. Norton graduate nicely from grit to grit. In my case 1000-4000-8000. The Chosera has a very hard, sticky feeling, particularly when swarf starts building up. Water does not wash this swarf away. Smaller blades, like chisels, can be hard to stoke on the stone. I should add that I sharpen using an Eclipse guide on everything. The 10,000 grit polish is like a mirror and the blade is very sharp afterwards. It also stays flat for a very long time. Plane irons clamped in a jig present no problem since I am honing just a thin secondary bevel and a firm two-handed grip overcomes any stickiness from the stone.

There are a several people on this forum who have extensive knowledge and experience with Japanese stones. I would appreciate their feedback and suggestions about maximizing my results from this stone.

Chris Griggs
12-13-2011, 5:46 PM
I'm sure you'll want Dave, Stu, and Archie to respond.

I haven't used the 10k, but have used the 1k and the 400. I would describe the 1k similar to the way you describe the 10k. Number one thing I found with the 1k is to really back off the pressure. These cut fast with a light touch, and with lighter pressure the 1k anyway is smoother to use. Some stones also have a breaking in period. The very outer layer is a bit harder then the inside and they get nicer as you use them - I'm not sure if this is true of the Chosera though, Stu will know though.

Archie uses his 1k Cho a lot and has had similar issues with it loading. When the stone first starts to load he will actually break up the swarf with a paper towel - he says that once he does that once the stone stops loading for the remainder of the sharpening session. I have no idea why this works for him, but he swears by it.

David Weaver
12-13-2011, 5:47 PM
It is (the 10k), to me, the best polishing artificial waterstone available for woodworking. It's blindingly fast for the fineness, and puts on an edge as good as any artificial waterstone I've tried with less effort than any artificial waterstone I've tried. (Much less effort than a natural stone, too, just comparing apples to apples with the man made stones). Under a scope, the shapton 30k is probably finer, but for practicality, it's not worth worrying about.

The choseras are all different, though, so whatever is said about the 10k can't necessarily be said about the 5k, etc, apparently. I have the 3k and the 400, and they are miles different than the 10k, and I understand the 1k between there to be softer than those (both the 3k and the 400 are very hard).

With a soak, the chosera is better by a good bit than it is if you just spritz it, but if you have it in the shop and you spritz it off and on during your session, the top gets the soaked feel, anyway. The flushing of the swarf is better soaked, and the feel is smoother - it's a very freehander friendly stone that I would call middle of the road hardness (softer than shapton pros by a fair amount but quite a bit harder than most of the soft stones).

I am very partial to the shaptons because they have been my go-tos for so long, and I like the stones of stus (the sigma powers) that I've tried. They are both better dollar for dollar for someone who doesn't have the resources (as long as the shaptons are bought foreign or second hand), but if you aren't completely sold on the chosera being the best, just use it for a little while and get comfortable with it.

David Weaver
12-13-2011, 6:05 PM
There's another dirty secret out there. A magnesia binder stone, like the 10k chosera if i'm not mistaken, is out there that fujibato (330 mate) carries. He sells them one at a time on ebay for about $38 shipped on ebay. (i have no affiliation to him)

They feel not a lot different than the 10k chosera if you keep the surface on both clean, though they are a 6k stone and not as keen as the chosera. They are also no-soak stones, soaking would damage them, but a lovely little secret stone.

I had a conversation with stu not long ago and he will be carrying them soon, but I wouldn't expect he'll be able to match fujibato's price on ebay because fujibato seems to use ebay to dump items and his store prices are much higher (i.e, nobody could sustain a legitimate business with some of the prices he charges for things when he's dumping).

And overall, none of this is to suggest that anyone who is using any decent set of stones of any type will gain much or anything in their woodworking by buying $265 finish stones or ordering stuff from overseas on ebay - it's an issue of relative comparison for comparison's sake. Sort of like how some folks drive 400 horsepower mid-sized cars and adhere to speed limits. To a person from the outside who is just looking to get from point A to B, it makes no sense.

Archie England
12-13-2011, 6:50 PM
I have a new Chosera 10,000 grit stone. It is the only non-Norton Water stone that I have, and it has a much different feel than the Nortons. Norton graduate nicely from grit to grit. In my case 1000-4000-8000. The Chosera has a very hard, sticky feeling, particularly when swarf starts building up. Water does not wash this swarf away. Smaller blades, like chisels, can be hard to stoke on the stone. I should add that I sharpen using an Eclipse guide on everything. The 10,000 grit polish is like a mirror and the blade is very sharp afterwards. It also stays flat for a very long time. Plane irons clamped in a jig present no problem since I am honing just a thin secondary bevel and a firm two-handed grip overcomes any stickiness from the stone.

There are a several people on this forum who have extensive knowledge and experience with Japanese stones. I would appreciate their feedback and suggestions about maximizing my results from this stone.

The Chosera 1k is great stone--once you learn to manage it's initial tendency to load up!!! As Chris said, I've found the light touch to be the best approach. Second, once I see heavy swarf glazing over my path, I add a tiny spritz of water, a few circular strokes, and then wipe the stone face clean. Add another spritz, and the stone will amazingly work up a small slurry that will not tend to load or glaze ... so long as you work lightly. Heavy stroke action will really load the stone up. This, IMO, is the genuine weakness of the Naniwa Chosera 1000. However, it's benefits are numerous: highly dish resistant, long lasting!!!!!, firm enough to start out with push strokes, and it cuts all my O1 and A2 like a speedy bandit. Also, until I learned to break up the glazing, I didn't get very polished backs and bevels, it left a matte finish. Now that I've learned to clean off that initial glazing (again, which you must break up first), I get highly polished edges (backs and bevels). The best benefit for me freehand sharpening on the Chosera 1k is this, it's genuinely hard enough not to dub over my full bevel sharpening (I still don't mess with secondary bevels). The same goes for the Chosera 3k, which is an even better stone than the 1k. Though it somewhat wants to load up, it's real easy to keep the swarf/slurry moving and working for me.

Now, I'd be remiss not to mention my favorite 1k, the Sigma Power ceramic 1000. What a fantastic total package of a cutting, honing, and polishing stone. The Sigma just never loads up, doesn't demand special techniques, and yet yields a truly sharp cutting edge. Though I can put either the Chosera or Sigma 1k edge on a Sigma power 6k, both genuinely benefit from an intermediate step stone. Again, this is not necessary; but it really does improve the final edge coming off the 6000 stone.

Congratulations on the Chosera! It's a workhorse, with needs. Lighten up, make circular motions while adding a small bit of water, and all will turn out well! BTW, I do hate the green goop. This never goes away, but it does lessen a little once you've broken in the stone.

Stuart Tierney
12-13-2011, 8:25 PM
Soak it. For 5-10 minutes. No more, no less.

If I can do nothing else on this planet before I shed my mortal coil, it'll be to convince folks that "soaking the ^%$^%$^*% stone!!!" is not the terrible, nasty, evil and to-be-avoided-at-all-costs activity that too many purveyors of sharpening stones make it out to be.

If the stone needs the water in it (or is otherwise improved by soaking), then all you're doing by not giving it that water is hamstringing it to a point where you might as well use a rock you found outside.

With regard to the Chosera, soak it for 5-10 minutes and see what happens. No more than that, you can permanently damage the stone. Let it dry slowly, no heat or breeze blowing over it, you can permanently damage the stone. No chemicals in it (soap, bleach, etc.), you can permanently damage the stone. They're notoriously fragile and when they're not happy they're pigs of things to use. But when they're right, they're seriously good.

That they're still popular with the sky-high price tag, you'd expect them to be spectacular, and they are.

Soak it, I hope I'm making this perfectly clear here.

And good luck.

Stu.

David Weaver
12-13-2011, 9:35 PM
I think the chos say 20-40 minutes on the side of the stones, but they say it in japanese, so I couldn't read it if I tried. I usually soak mine for about 20 minutes if I do soak them. But I use them enough that the surface is wet often when I use them. They will craze if you try to rush their drying, but if it's minor crazing, it won't affect their use. I don't baby mine too much. They're worth the effort.

I'd say the difference between not soaking them and soaking them is along the lines of their behavior being like a shapton when not soaked well enough. When they have been soaked, they don't glaze and their action doesn't change in use - they feel like a good medium hard suita or tomae stone, except maybe without quirks that some naturals have. When not soaked, they still have a bit of an artificial feeling (well, they are artificial, so I guess that's allowed). The same effect as soaking can be had by just splashing water on them a few times, and then the whole stone is not wet all the way through.

Jason Coen
12-13-2011, 9:55 PM
Sorry if this is a hijack, but could someone compare the Cho 10k to a glass Shapton 16k so I can have some frame of reference? The Shapton had an unfortunate meeting with the floor and is no longer in one piece :(, so I'm searching for a new finishing stone. I've got 1k, 4k, and 8k glass stones and might take this opportunity to tweak the line-up just a bit.

David Weaver
12-13-2011, 10:18 PM
It is at least as fine or finer (at least the edge resulting is, not sure on the abrasive size on the chosera), the polish is better, and it's faster than the shapton glasstone, and at least as fast as a very freshly lapped 15k pro (which is only that screaming fast right after being refreshed).

And the abrasive is 5 times as thick.

No stone is going to regularly survive a drop to the floor, though, unless someone starts making rubberized abrasive sharpening stones.

Well, I have a diamond hone that has survived the fall to a concrete floor, but the dented up corner had to be filed off.

If and when you use up that 1k stone, replace it with a pro stone instead - it'll last much longer.

You could also add sigma power's 13k stone after the 8k glass stone. That's an easy jump, and it's as fine as the chosera, just not quite as fast and not quite as hard and releases a bit of slurry. Probably about half the price, too and overall, to me, a nicer stone than the glasstones for little more than the 16k costs.

Jason Coen
12-13-2011, 10:55 PM
Many thanks, David, that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

I got the 1k, 4k, and 8k as a gift, and added the 16k when I found a screaming deal on it. I've had the 1/4/8 for about a year, and the 1k is already about 1/2 gone. Definitely not going the glass stone route again for the 1k. I've been generally pleased with the them, but coming from a set of Norton's I don't have a huge wealth of experience with which to judge their performance. I did like that they were more user friendly than the Norton's, but as I've gotten more use out of them their ease of use appeal has dwindled a bit. Or, rather, as sharpening has become an almost daily occurrence, a soaker stone or softer stone is not the impediment that it once seemed to be.

The Sigma Power stones are intriguing. As I sharpen much more frequently now, I'd really like a faster stone than the glass stones (it helps too that I better know what to look for when sharpening and am not as worried about continuing to sharpen on a dished stone, etc.).

Again, thanks.

Mike Brady
12-13-2011, 11:29 PM
Thanks to you all. Soaking is where I need to begin (literally). I was shortening that soak time considerably. If I have any more questions, I'll be back!

By the way, I was talking with a tool maker who literally has hundreds of hours experience with Shapton (glass)stones. He has switched to Choseras and finds them to be superb. It was actually his recommendation that prompted me to get the 10,000 grit. I should have spent more time finding out about the use of the stone. He had mentioned the "stickiness" but I didn't pay enough attention to what he said was causing it.

Rick Fisher
12-14-2011, 2:36 AM
TFFW has a Niniwa stone that is 12000 grit but only 10mm thick .. would it be basically the same idea as the one described by the OP but a touch finer ?

I read an article, I think written by Stu about the actual microns on each mfg stones and how an 8000 from one MFG may be coarser or finer than an 8000 from another ..

TFFW suggests only spritzing the 12000 grit super stone because its resin based..

David Weaver
12-14-2011, 6:52 AM
The superstones are softer (the 12k you're describing). They are good stones, but not quite in the class of the choseras, and the harder the steel, the more evident it becomes.

David Weaver
12-14-2011, 7:00 AM
Jason - the glasstones are good stones. Easy to get results from. My complaint with them (i've used the 1, 16 and 30 enough to know what they're like) is that shapton shorts the buyer on abrasive. It doesn't matter so much on the finer stones, they'll last for years. I think the 1k is too soft compared to the rest, but if it's not my imagination and it is actually softer, I understand why they made it that way. Just a bad combination to make it both softer and very thin.

For practical purposes, if the stone hadn't met the floor, I would not replace a 16k glasstone with anything - all of the hard stones are not that far apart in performance, and all are extremely easy to get an incredible edge from.

The SP 13k, chosera, glasstone 16k, superstone 12k, and shapton pro 15k are all similar in the edge that's produced. Where they stand apart is when you do a test that nobody would do with real tools, which is to do something like the article that FWW just released on their digital site - to sharpen full bevel on hard a2 steel with 1k stone through polish stones.

Anyone who has the online subscription can go see the FWW article, I guess it's not out in a magazine yet. Stu's stones did well, as did the shaptons and choseras - not much of a surprise those three are at the top of the list.

Jason Coen
12-14-2011, 10:22 AM
Jason - the glasstones are good stones. Easy to get results from. My complaint with them (i've used the 1, 16 and 30 enough to know what they're like) is that shapton shorts the buyer on abrasive. It doesn't matter so much on the finer stones, they'll last for years. I think the 1k is too soft compared to the rest, but if it's not my imagination and it is actually softer, I understand why they made it that way. Just a bad combination to make it both softer and very thin.


While I don't have much experience across a variety of stones, the difference in hardness between the Shapton GS 1k and the GS 4k/8k/16k seems much greater than the difference in hardness between my previous Norton stones of equivalent grits. I can't say if this is normal or not, but it is something that I also definitely noticed. Did Shapton go this route on purpose in order to make the stone a little faster since more "work" is done on the 1k stone as compared to the finer stones?



For practical purposes, if the stone hadn't met the floor, I would not replace a 16k glasstone with anything - all of the hard stones are not that far apart in performance, and all are extremely easy to get an incredible edge from.

I was pretty disappointed when it happened, though I managed to not yell at the goofy lab that precipitated the stone's unfortunate meeting with the floor. I really liked the 16k (also pleased with the 4k and 8k - I actually think the 4k stone is my favorite of the bunch).

In any case, I like what I've read about the Cho 10k and Sigma Power 13k stones. I'm at the point that I feel pretty comfortable buying an expensive stone like the Cho since I intend to use it until it's consumed (barring any more incidents with the dog, of course), but at the same time don't want to throw dollars at something that's "better" while providing no discernible advantage when steel meets wood.

How does the 1k Select II stack up against a SP ceramic 1k? Would either "play nice" with the 4k/8k glass stones? My 1k GS isn't long for the world, and I may as well have its replacement in hand.

David Weaver
12-14-2011, 10:34 AM
If I were looking for a ceramic 1k, I would probably put it between:
* Shapton pro
* Sigma ceramic
* Chosera
* bester 1k or 1200

I haven't used all of those in 1k, but i've used all of them in something not far from there (i have both besters, and use the shapton pro constantly, and also have a pro 1k glasstone).

The Select II is a stone that is designed for something very specific and the others are a much better choice if most of what you do is A2 and O1 steels. They will all cut M2 hss, too, though the select II will do it better.

Any of the ceramic stones can mix and match with different brands, they all cut similar grooves. Their differences are mostly in binder, hardness and how fast they release the grit. When fresh, each stone is about as fast as the other if the grit sizes are the same (and though they're close, they're not all the same size - still putting a 1k sigma or chosera with shaptons poses no problem at all).

The shapton pro 1k is still my favorite of all of those, because of no soak. Sorry stu, it's just one less thing for me to deal with.

Though in stu's favor, I think he's verified that the sigma power can live in water, so if you have a place to store it in water, it's not the hassle that the chosera might be. My shop is in the 40s in the winter. Putting my hands in cold water isn't my idea of fun. Everyone has their own circumstances, but that's one of the things that makes me like soak free stones so much.

Aside - the 1k glasstone - I think it's softer because 1k stones that are softer load less and are better for beginners. For the whole range of freehanding, using guides, etc, I gravitate toward harder stones. They stay flat longer, wear much longer, gouge less easily and if they do load, a simple wipe with a diamond finger stone or any conditioning stone will unload them.

Archie England
12-14-2011, 3:16 PM
If I were looking for a ceramic 1k, I would probably put it between:
* Shapton pro
* Sigma ceramic
* Chosera
* bester 1k or 1200.

David, you're spot on with your assessment of these better stones. I've not used the Shapton Pro or Glass 1k, but I've spent a lot of time comparing the Sigma Power 1000 with the Chosera 1000 and the Bester 1200. First, all three work. The Bester 1200 isn't as tactile responsively as either the Cho or the SP, nor does the Bester 1200 yield as polished (nor sometimes as sharp) an edge. But the Bester is closer to the SP1k's ability to work w/o loading. That the Cho1k can't do. The SP1k is the softer of the three; the Cho1k, the firmest. Only the Cho 1000 let's me start pushing immediately. The other two require a few obligatory pull strokes to work through that initial grab (like a velvety smooth initial layer). Of these three, the SP is cheapest! And, ALL THREE WORK! I suspect, based on my use of Shapton Pro 120 (thanks OBG), that the Bester feels closer to the response of the Shapton Pro. What I do believe, however, is that the Sigma Power 1000 and the Chosera 1000 (once it's glazing is worked out) will produce consistently better results in sharpness or polish. And, whereas I have to pamper my beloved Chosera 1000, the Sigma and Bester stones can be dogged and still work beautifully. IMO, the Bester 1200 simply produces a coarser cut blade than the Cho and Sig. Just my $.02.

David Weaver
12-14-2011, 3:57 PM
The bester and shapton feel remarkably different, but the results and speed are probably similar on carbon steel and A2 (and on japanese irons - I really like the feel of japanese irons on the besters, because they never give you the feel that there is a layer of rolling mud or loading between the iron and the stone).

The bester feels and sounds like a big square unglazed coffee cup - it doesn't feel at all muddy, but instead it feels like a big porous piece of ceramic. The shapton pro feels solid and doesn't have the porous feel, but it also doesn't have the slick muddy feel that a more frangible stone has.

The bester is thirsty - you absolutely can't get away with splashing it and using it right away (I can do that quite well with the cho 3k and the SPII 3K).

One thing I've never found a way around is that the harder a stone is, the more it will load, but the more versatile it will be. The cho loads the most probably because it's the hardest.

In terms of the two besters, my 1k feels softer than the 1200, but that may just be in my head and it may be because they're from different batches. It is hard to tell how out of flat a bester stone has gotten, because it doesn't load. Stones that load are easier for me to figure out when they're out of flat.

I keep asking stu for a stone as hard as a shapton, that cuts as fast as diamonds and never gets dull abrasive, and that doesn't load or need soaking. I know he likes it when I make that request.

All of the stones mentioned are at about the limit of what they'll do within their purposely designed constraints, you can guess their characteristics by their performance, or their performance by their characteristics. We banter around about stones, but we're lucky that there are so many good ones out there.

Chris Griggs
12-14-2011, 4:08 PM
In terms of the two besters, my 1k feels softer than the 1200, but that may just be in my head and it may be because they're from different batches. It is hard to tell how out of flat a bester stone has gotten, because it doesn't load. Stones that load are easier for me to figure out when they're out of flat.


In the FWW test that just came out the Bester 1200 dished quite a bit less than the Bester 1k. IIRC the 1200 tied with the Cho for dish resistance and the GS and Sig Power tied for first in dish resistance. Bester 1k didn't do so well by comparison in terms of dish resistance - in fact it was near the bottom of the pack in this respect. We are talking a difference of a .001" to .005" here, but those test results were still somewhat suprising/baffeling to me. I'll should go back and look at Stu's tests and see if his results were comparable.

David Weaver
12-14-2011, 4:50 PM
Yeah, i don't think they're quite right with .005 to .001. I intended to have one for the kitchen and one for the shop, and I would think it would be more of a .002 vs. .003 kind of difference.

I hope that everyone that reads the FWW summary looks around if they want a kitayama stone. Everybody and their brother has them for $68 to $75, and they chose JWW at $94. I don't know why they would do that.

I'm also totally baffled by the price of the shapton 10k ( roughly 1.5 times as expensive as the 16k), but there's no need to have the 10k at all, anyway.

Rick Fisher
12-14-2011, 10:20 PM
I have a Sigma II 1K, Norton 4000 and Norton 8000..

I have wanted a polishing stone but cant figure them out .. This thread has been very helpful.. The gist of what I have read is get one of the better brands and learn to use it .. lol

The Sigma Power II seems a much better stone to me than the Norton's .. Without looking into it I would choose Sigma over my Norton but suspect each grit is a bit different ..

Joel Moskowitz
12-14-2011, 11:27 PM
I haven't read the FWW article but I should mention that for me what I love about the Choseras is how fast they work on tougher steels. I was sharpening a brand new D2 blade on a 1K superstone, flattening the back, - which I like for regular stuff and it was going slow. Then out of desperation I switched to a chosera 1K and what seems a 1/2 hour chore was done in under two minutes. Same company different chemistry, blow me out of the water.

my point is that since more and more people are using tougher alloys which Choseras and Nortons do pretty well on, i wonder if the article made that distinction.

Stuart Tierney
12-15-2011, 12:38 AM
I haven't read the FWW article but I should mention that for me what I love about the Choseras is how fast they work on tougher steels. I was sharpening a brand new D2 blade on a 1K superstone, flattening the back, - which I like for regular stuff and it was going slow. Then out of desperation I switched to a chosera 1K and what seems a 1/2 hour chore was done in under two minutes. Same company different chemistry, blow me out of the water.

my point is that since more and more people are using tougher alloys which Choseras and Nortons do pretty well on, i wonder if the article made that distinction.

Hi Joel,

Unfortunately the article only dealt with O1 and A2 steel, and the testing method was not favourable for some of the stones tested, nor did it take into account 'work done' by the stones for the amount of dishing inflicted on them.

You know how it is though, there's only so much testing can be done, and it's impossible to cover every variable or offer a quantifiable measure for every metric possible. They've done their test, and while it can be argued the testing was flawed (and it will be, guaranteed!) the end results were quite accurate of what the stones actually do and how they actually work. As far as comparisons go, it's going to be debated to death but the results will still stand up to the scrutiny well, unless someone throws some spin on them to suit their own purposes.


Stu.

David Weaver
12-15-2011, 9:06 AM
Here's my thoughts, since I don't sell anything and can't be accused of favoring a stone for profit (I have "negative personal profits" from buying all of these stones to begin with):

* The three best types of stones that "won" as a result of the test are the three best general use stones. The shapton pros should've been used instead of the shapton glasstones, and there shouldn't be anyone on earth who buys a 10k grit 5 mm thick glasstone for $150 unless it magically pops up with diamonds in it and is sintered.

* The SP IIs are chided for being a soft friable stone in a test of steels that don't need a soft friable stone. If the test were changed to something M2 or tougher, and bevels like a "normal" person would use sharpening hardened steel, the tables would be turned. They're a specialty stone that do well at what they're supposed to do - the people who blindly read FWW reviews and buy best value or best overall will probably not need them, but claiming their strength is a weakness with no explanation of what they're designed for is no good. I only have one SP II - a 3k, and I like it quite a lot as a stand in for a natural aoto - it has a feel that's somewhat similar, but cuts much faster.

* The bester results are confusing. They are fantastic stones for A2 and O1. Don't know about the imanishi stones, but I would assume that they're all coming from the imanishi stone company, which must be a pretty large operation despite the fact that the name imanishi isn't brought up in the US much.

* Where does JWW get that price for the kitayama? And why doesn't FWW allude to the fact that the stone is available everwhere else for less money, if it's supposed to be a best value..... (then tell people where to get the best value)?

I understand that when you run with a method for a test you have to take the results of the method, and if you're writing a magazine article, the sample size will be small (i.e., there will not be someone doing each thing 50 times, wearing off half the stone, doing it 50 times again in the middle, etc.)

The results should be tempered on the forums by people who have used the stones.

Archie England
12-15-2011, 9:11 AM
+1. Well said.

Stuart Tierney
12-15-2011, 11:22 AM
Dave,

Apparently there have been some price rises in recent months...

I just did a little checking, and I'm shocked by how much stuff has gone up. The down dollar is making it's presence felt in a big way I'd think more than anything else.

Case in point, the price as mentioned in the article of that GS 10K is $148, new price will be $172 at Craftman's Studio. :eek:

Dang. That's not nice at all.


Not much else to say here that won't get me into trouble, other than I'm expecting some samples to arrive in the next day or two. From what I've been told, holy carp...

We might have found your magical stone, and I'm not kidding.


Stu.

Chris Griggs
12-15-2011, 11:29 AM
Dave,

We might have found your magical stone, and I'm not kidding.

Stu.

Stu, if you do indeed get a magical stone, I want to see a video.... please! From reading your blog lately, I can tell how much you are enjoying doing videos.

Failing that I'll just get Archie to buy one so I can play with it ;).

David Weaver
12-15-2011, 11:42 AM
Case in point, the price as mentioned in the article of that GS 10K is $148, new price will be $172 at Craftman's Studio. :eek:

Dang. That's not nice at all.


Even more reason to go to ebay or directly from japan somewhere to find a good price on pro stones. I see the 12k out there in two places on ebay for right around $100 shipped -and you know how big of a bite ebay takes. Fujibato has the cream (12k) for 5400 yen on his page, still, for anyone who can tolerate ordering in a site that is japanese only, where even the buttons stay in japanese after google translate. Maybe not for the faint of heart. Kuroda a little higher in dollars ($85, and $90 shipping) but not in stock.

In my opinion, shapton stones, even for all of the overpromoting that's done of the glasstones, are probably going to end up going the way of the dinosaur here sooner or later because of their price structure in the states. All it would take to really knock them out would be norton deciding to do a resin binder stone, but I think norton likes the sandpaper side of things better, and maybe that won't happen.

And, you're right, the currency situation sucks. All the more reason that a price structure that's somehow much more bloated in the US isn't the right strategy for them. If they open the door for someone else, though....i'm sure someone will walk through it.

Joshua Pierce
12-15-2011, 12:00 PM
Even more reason to go to ebay or directly from japan somewhere to find a good price on pro stones. . .
. . . still, for anyone who can tolerate ordering in a site that is japanese only, where even the buttons stay in japanese after google translate. Maybe not for the faint of heart. . . .


Made me think of this:

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/12/22

(I don't even play video games, so god knows why I remember a 10 year old video game comic, but I had friends who used to order video games from Japan and did go through a funny situation . . .)

Jack Curtis
12-15-2011, 6:24 PM
...* The SP IIs are chided for being a soft friable stone in a test of steels that don't need a soft friable stone. If the test were changed to something M2 or tougher, and bevels like a "normal" person would use sharpening hardened steel, the tables would be turned. They're a specialty stone that do well at what they're supposed to do - the people who blindly read FWW reviews and buy best value or best overall will probably not need them, but claiming their strength is a weakness with no explanation of what they're designed for is no good. I only have one SP II - a 3k, and I like it quite a lot as a stand in for a natural aoto - it has a feel that's somewhat similar, but cuts much faster....

Geesh, do I really have to buy the FWW issue?

That asked, why wouldn't the SPII's do well on basic steels? Stu's site says they cut amazingly fast. That's not true for O1?

Jack

David Weaver
12-15-2011, 10:01 PM
they do cut fast, but if you run an iron in a guide over them over and over, they will dish because they are friable. If they weren't as friable, they wouldn't work as well on high speed steels.

you can do a trial for two weeks online and then cancel for free, and see the article during the trial period.

Jack Curtis
12-15-2011, 10:40 PM
Thanks, David. So you're better off if you freehand, which would eliminate the guide use?

Also, I don't really want to fool with FWW again, still can't forget their useless and wrong chisel review some years ago, don't have any confidence in their ability to adequately test anything. Not that this is a failing, it's just a very hard thing to do well.

Jack

Brian Ward
12-15-2011, 11:08 PM
That asked, why wouldn't the SPII's do well on basic steels? Stu's site says they cut amazingly fast. That's not true for O1?


They do work very fast on O1 and A2, but as others have mentioned, though, they dish a lot faster. I actually use a Select II 10k as my finishing stone, but I'd say my SP 1k is my most important stone now because it just doesn't like to dish, and raising the burr is what takes me the most time. Jay van Arsdale told me that he's a big fan of his Bester 1k for basically the same reason--cuts fast and resists dishing.

Jack Curtis
12-15-2011, 11:37 PM
They do work very fast on O1 and A2, but as others have mentioned, though, they dish a lot faster. I actually use a Select II 10k as my finishing stone, but I'd say my SP 1k is my most important stone now because it just doesn't like to dish, and raising the burr is what takes me the most time. Jay van Arsdale told me that he's a big fan of his Bester 1k for basically the same reason--cuts fast and resists dishing.

I got a Bester 1k this week to celebrate JWW's free shipping, it arrived today. But then I saw Stu's 1k-6k-13k SP package, and started to rue the Bester buy. Now I'm starting to think that the SP 1k could probably be the soft version, which might come in handy here and there. I don't know. Every time I try to overhaul my sharpening regimen I get bored trying to choose from all the good choices, go right back to same old same old when it stops raining. :)

Jack

Archie England
12-15-2011, 11:40 PM
They do work very fast on O1 and A2, but as others have mentioned, though, they dish a lot faster. I actually use a Select II 10k as my finishing stone, but I'd say my SP 1k is my most important stone now because it just doesn't like to dish, and raising the burr is what takes me the most time. Jay van Arsdale told me that he's a big fan of his Bester 1k for basically the same reason--cuts fast and resists dishing.

For those of you, who are interested in thorough testing of about a dozen waterstones, please visit Stu Tierney's blog, http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/, for the quite definitive assessment of steel vs. stones. You'll have to sort through back months to find the six part series on testing. What's provided is extremely well documented, well organized, and massively overwhelming. What Stu provides, however, is a fantastic assessment and ranking of the major attributes desirable in waterstones. Now, the one caveat is this, the testing is most focused only on the 1000 stones, so there's little help on the higher grit comparisons.

One for instance, from my experience: Arkansas soft and hard are approximately 4x slower cutting than the Norton 1000. The Norton is about 5x slower than the Sigma Power ceramic 1000. The Chosera 1000, Bester 1200, and Arashiyama 1000 are all relatively the same speed as the Chosera and Sigma Power. I suspect from what David Weaver and Wilbur Pan have said, that the Shapton products easily fit in this fastest category, as well. The Sigma Select IIs, however, are described as chainsaws in an axe cutting contest. Speed is not always the most important trait. Hence, I'll take a firmer stone over one that's softer; a better dish resistant one vs. one easily misshaped; the longer lasting stone vs one used up hurriedly; a stone that forms a great slurry vs one just moving dark swarf around. Others prefer non-soakers, which is not an issue for me. Too often "we" discuss our pet stones as if they are the best in every category--and that's just not the case. All these stones work, as do the older King Waterstones and a host of diamond surfaces and sandpaper strips. In a sense, it's like buying tools...get the best you can buy because the cheaper tools don't satisfy you for long!!!

just one man's opinion...

Brian Ward
12-16-2011, 12:12 AM
I got a Bester 1k this week to celebrate JWW's free shipping, it arrived today. But then I saw Stu's 1k-6k-13k SP package, and started to rue the Bester buy. Now I'm starting to think that the SP 1k could probably be the soft version, which might come in handy here and there. I don't know. Every time I try to overhaul my sharpening regimen I get bored trying to choose from all the good choices, go right back to same old same old when it stops raining. :)


Yup, I've been there. I'd say not to sweat those finer stones much; just get to know your Bester 1k now that you actually have it. I was amazed at how my attitude towards sharpening changed when I moved to a ceramic stone at this grit.

Stuart Tierney
12-16-2011, 12:35 AM
Jack,

The soft takes the rule book and throws it out the window. The hard is fairly sterile, but very usable and gives enough feedback so you can work out what's going on. The soft has very good feedback, cuts even faster and is a lovely, lovely stone to use. The only stones I can compare it to honestly are the Chosera and large size Sigma soft (different stone).

And it's bombproof. You just can't kill them, and I've tried. Got one soaked in oil, one frozen, one glowing red hot. Still works like nothing happened to it. Except the oiled one, it cuts slower, but still works well enough.

But, hold your horses. A new #1200 is en route. More details as I get them. If it's any good, it'll be an option on the set...

Stu.

Jack Curtis
12-16-2011, 2:26 AM
The soft takes the rule book and throws it out the window. The hard is fairly sterile, but very usable and gives enough feedback so you can work out what's going on. The soft has very good feedback, cuts even faster and is a lovely, lovely stone to use. The only stones I can compare it to honestly are the Chosera and large size Sigma soft (different stone).

And it's bombproof. You just can't kill them, and I've tried. Got one soaked in oil, one frozen, one glowing red hot. Still works like nothing happened to it. Except the oiled one, it cuts slower, but still works well enough.

But, hold your horses. A new #1200 is en route. More details as I get them. If it's any good, it'll be an option on the set...

Thanks, Stu, that sounds like one fine stone; but I'll wait until you can check out the 1200.

And Brian, you're right of course, and I do plan to run it through the paces; but I'm real interested in what I want to use to follow it in the finer grits.

Jack

Chris Griggs
12-16-2011, 7:35 AM
Thanks, Stu, that sounds like one fine stone; but I'll wait until you can check out the 1200.

And Brian, you're right of course, and I do plan to run it through the paces; but I'm real interested in what I want to use to follow it in the finer grits.

Jack

If nothing else get a Sig 6k. That stone is magical! I can't compare it to all that much but to me it seems like it is cutting faster than its grit range, yet polishing finer than its grit range. The more I use that stone the more I love it.

If my set of sigs was destroyed, that would be the first one I'd replace (really I'd replace the whole set, but....). I think I could probably be happy with any number of 1k stones and 8K or higher stones, but I would have no idea what is out that could do what the 6k could do.

David Weaver
12-16-2011, 8:30 AM
Thanks, David. So you're better off if you freehand, which would eliminate the guide use?



With a big fat flat bevel on a japanese iron, freehand, yes. And with a hollow grind, yes.

The test that FWW did sharpened the entire bevel of hardened steel, which I think is pointless when using a soft stone. it will dish and the following stone will not cut the same surface as the prior stone did due to the dishing. IF there's no stone following (i.e., if the soft stone is the polishing stone) then it's no big deal - a soft finishing stone is sometimes nice to use, but you lose the feel that makes it nice in a jig, anyway.


If you're freehanding, you can go over the stone, cover the entire surface, and it'll still get out of flat some, but it'll be much less, and you can run the iron over the surface in all directions, as opposed to using a guide, essentially creating a rut and then working an iron in that rut. The "rut" is only a couple of thousandths deep, but cutting a full several thousandths out of a face of hardened steel is a good bit of work.

The SPIIs would be just fine for microbeveling, and especially when it's gummy stuff like M2 or worse where the harder stones will load a little bit on their surface, compromise the speed of the cut and compromise the quality of the edge.

If FWW wanted to do a real-world test where they work a large metal area, they could've worked irons fresh off of an accurate surface grinder.

Tests where one single method is applied to everything don't do justice to the fact that someone who gets to know their stones will figure out how best to use them. Familiarity is important to get the best results - stones you don't like at first become favorable with use.

Jack Curtis
12-16-2011, 4:50 PM
If nothing else get a Sig 6k. That stone is magical! I can't compare it to all that much but to me it seems like it is cutting faster than its grit range, yet polishing finer than its grit range. The more I use that stone the more I love it.

If my set of sigs was destroyed, that would be the first one I'd replace (really I'd replace the whole set, but....). I think I could probably be happy with any number of 1k stones and 8K or higher stones, but I would have no idea what is out that could do what the 6k could do.

Wow, many thanks, that kind of cements the decision to go with the SP 1-6-13 package (or 1.2-6-13), with the SP 1 soft. I've had no real joy with the Shapton 5k, so much so that I've been using the natural Aoto 4k instead before going to any of several natural honers and polishers; but this all feels so ad hoc at times, which it is. :) It will be great to have a set procedure before deviating to the naturals as needed.

Jack

Jack Curtis
12-16-2011, 5:29 PM
...If you're freehanding, you can go over the stone, cover the entire surface, and it'll still get out of flat some, but it'll be much less, and you can run the iron over the surface in all directions, as opposed to using a guide, essentially creating a rut and then working an iron in that rut. The "rut" is only a couple of thousandths deep, but cutting a full several thousandths out of a face of hardened steel is a good bit of work....

OK. I always figured that dishing was the result of an iron being sharpened, which it is, so the iron being sharpened would be sharpened, regardless of the dishing resulting from the process. All I have to do is a combination of avoiding the potentially dished areas by using the whole stone and making sure to take very full strokes so the full iron is equally affected by any dished areas. This approach seems to have worked, but it may have caused me a little extra work.

But then I'm more casual about level stones. Most of mine are natural water stones of irregular shape, which if flattened would be non-existent.

As to FWW, it's too expensive to do a quality stone test/evaluation. They'd need to be a $1000/issue technical journal that would allow them to buy equipment and people.

Jack

Chris Griggs
12-16-2011, 6:29 PM
Wow, many thanks, that kind of cements the decision to go with the SP 1-6-13 package (or 1.2-6-13), with the SP 1 soft. I've had no real joy with the Shapton 5k, so much so that I've been using the natural Aoto 4k instead before going to any of several natural honers and polishers; but this all feels so ad hoc at times, which it is. :) It will be great to have a set procedure before deviating to the naturals as needed.

Jack

The one thing I'll add about the 6k is that it is really very hard, but it's not dead at all and has a nice smooth feel. I actually have the slightly older model that Stu sells, called the Jinzo Renge Suita which is ever so slightly (and I do mean slightly) softer and just a touch muddier. If your less partial to hard stones and you want something with just a little more mud (but thats still fairly hard) you might want to consider that one. I've used my 6k (the Jinzo) side by side with Archie's 6k which is the current version. Both of us could hardly tell a difference, and I really can't say I prefer one over the other. Once again, mine just feels ever so slightly less hard and ever so slightly muddier.

Just some food for thought.

Stuart Tierney
12-16-2011, 7:09 PM
The one thing I'll add about the 6k is that it is really very hard, but it's not dead at all and has a nice smooth feel. I actually have the slightly older model that Stu sells, called the Jinzo Renge Suita which is ever so slightly (and I do mean slightly) softer and just a touch muddier. If your less partial to hard stones and you want something with just a little more mud (but thats still fairly hard) you might want to consider that one. I've used my 6k (the Jinzo) side by side with Archie's 6k which is the current version. Both of us could hardly tell a difference, and I really can't say I prefer one over the other. Once again, mine just feels ever so slightly less hard and ever so slightly muddier.

Just some food for thought.

Chinese milk vetch abrasive man-made nest plate finish ■ # 355 902 # 6000 # 6000 will be ruined ceramic products.
(Middle / see attached, far right).

That's what google translate spits out, after I asked about baseless 6K ceramics the other day.

(Getting an idea of how difficult it is sometimes???)

What it tells me is that the Jinzo is supposed to be the ceramic 6K. The slightly softer feel is, more than anything else, a difference in batches. I noticed it too, and the difference was very, very small but apparent.

I'm going to confirm this, and if they repeat that the Jinzo is the 6K without a base, then I've gotta go with that.

What's odd is that I've special ordered 6K without bases, and they weren't marked up as Jinzo stones. Missing that stamp on the top.

Stu.

Jack Curtis
12-16-2011, 7:15 PM
Thanks again, Chris, I'll remember to ask Stu about this when ready to order. The Jinzo may not still be available.

Jack

Jack Curtis
12-16-2011, 7:21 PM
Or, as we used to say, inscrutable.

Jack

Mike Brady
12-17-2011, 9:20 AM
Again, I'm a sharpening stone dullard, but why all the discussion about expensive 1000 grit stones? If you need 2-3 grits after 1000 why spend big dough on a 1000? A Norton India will get you to a burr in no time and it never needs flattening. To me the only stone that counts is the last one you use. Prior stones are just a matter of how quick can you remove scratches. I see the point of a great 1000 grit stone only if it allows you to use just one stone after it....say 1000 followed by 8000 or 10000.

Chris Griggs
12-17-2011, 11:51 AM
Chinese milk vetch abrasive man-made nest plate finish ■ # 355 902 # 6000 # 6000 will be ruined ceramic products.
(Middle / see attached, far right).

That's what google translate spits out, after I asked about baseless 6K ceramics the other day.

(Getting an idea of how difficult it is sometimes???)

What it tells me is that the Jinzo is supposed to be the ceramic 6K. The slightly softer feel is, more than anything else, a difference in batches. I noticed it too, and the difference was very, very small but apparent.

I'm going to confirm this, and if they repeat that the Jinzo is the 6K without a base, then I've gotta go with that.

What's odd is that I've special ordered 6K without bases, and they weren't marked up as Jinzo stones. Missing that stamp on the top.

Stu.

So your saying the Jinzo and ceramic 6k may not actually be different stones. Interesting. That would explain why the first time Arch and I used them side by side we agreed that the most significant difference between the two was the fact that one has a base and the other doesn't. Well either way they both rock!


Again, I'm a sharpening stone dullard, but why all the discussion about expensive 1000 grit stones? If you need 2-3 grits after 1000 why spend big dough on a 1000? A Norton India will get you to a burr in no time and it never needs flattening. To me the only stone that counts is the last one you use. Prior stones are just a matter of how quick can you remove scratches. I see the point of a great 1000 grit stone only if it allows you to use just one stone after it....say 1000 followed by 8000 or 10000.

I used to feel the same way. I can't explain why, but you'd be surprised the difference a good 1k can make in final edge. It may just be that it lets you spend less time on the higher grit stones and makes it easier to get an edge - I don't know. All I know is that when I got a ceramic 1k I was surprised at how much easier it made my sharpening regimen compared to the Norton water stones I had previously used. Also keep in mind that some of these 1k's, while quite a bit more than a an India are under $50 shipped. Will an India stone work? To me there is no question it will. It is a legitimate preference, as long as one makes sure they clean the oil off the blade before moving into finer water stones , but a good 1k ceramic stone is really very nice to have.


I got a Bester 1k this week to celebrate JWW's free shipping, it arrived today. But then I saw Stu's 1k-6k-13k SP package, and started to rue the Bester buy. Now I'm starting to think that the SP 1k could probably be the soft version, which might come in handy here and there. I don't know. Every time I try to overhaul my sharpening regimen I get bored trying to choose from all the good choices, go right back to same old same old when it stops raining. :)

Jack

Jack, Archie and I played hooky from work and got together in his shop yesterday. In addition to managing to get a little bit of work done on a project of his, we spent some time playing with his stone. Used the Cho 1k, Sig 1k, and Bester 1.2K side by side. My first reaction when I used the Bester was, "Wow, this feels a lot like the Sigma. It's quite a nice stone, and if I didn't immediately use the Sig and the Cho after it I don't think I would be very aware of how it differs from the Sig. The Bester, as has already been said, is harder feeling and it's also less gritty feeling. It also feels like it is cutting slower than then the Sig. It's almost funny to me how DEAD ON Stu's stone comparison is. The Bester is great on its own, but side by side with the Sig, I'd have to say I prefer the Sig. The Cho is very nice, but it does load and needs too much pampering. Now given that the Sig is the one I have and am used to it, makes sense that I would prefer it, but if I ranked the 3 I'd have to say the Sig 1k is #1 for me, the Bester 1.2K is a close second, and the Cho, well it's fantastic on so many levels, but again it's just a bit too finicky so I think I 'd prefer both the Bester and the Sig over it.

Orlando Gonzalez
12-17-2011, 12:29 PM
Had and tried Kings, Shapton Pros/GS, Besters, Arashiyama, Naniwa SS, Choseras, Scary Sharp, and Worksharp 3000 (hope I didn't leave something out). :rolleyes:

Have settled on the following:

Reshaping: Sigma Power Hard #120, Select II #240, SP Hard #400, Gesshin #400, SP Hard #700.

Honing/Sharpening: SP Hard 1K, 6K, 8K, 13K; Select II 1K, 3K, 6K.

And just for the heck of it when Jupiter aligns with Mars use a Rikka 5K, Soft/Hard/Translucent Arkys, Horse butt and green crayon, auto polish and MDF, and a ~25K+ Japanese natural that I got from Alex Gilmore at Japan Blade.

To soak/not to soak (that is, leaving them in water 24/7 or a 5-10 min soak), high cost/low cost, quick set up/slow set up, ceramic/synthetic/natural/oil/diamonds (plate/paste)/sandpaper, to strop/not to strop, jig/freehand, power/no power = Who cares. :rolleyes:

Finding the right medium(s), enjoying the sharpening process, learning something new each time you sharpen, and doing it your way = Priceless. ;):D

Archie England
12-17-2011, 2:21 PM
Had and tried Kings, Shapton Pros/GS, Besters, Arashiyama, Naniwa SS and Choseras.

Have settled on the following:

Reshaping: Sigma Power Hard #120, Select II #240, SP Hard #400, Gesshin #400, SP Hard #700.

Honing/Sharpening: SP Hard 1K, 6K, 8K, 13K; Select II 1K, 3K, 6K.

And just for the heck of it a Rikka 5K, Soft/Hard/Translucent Arkys, Horse butt and green crayon, and a ~25K+ Japanese natural that I got from Alex Gilmore at Japan Blade.

To soak/not to soak, high cost/low costs, quick set up/slower set up, creamic/synthetic/natural/oil, to strop/not to strop = Who cares. :rolleyes:

Finding the right stone(s) for me, enjoying the sharpening process, learning each time I do, and do it my way = Priceless. ;):D

+1. Too funny!!

Jason Coen
12-17-2011, 3:34 PM
If I were looking for a ceramic 1k, I would probably put it between:
* Shapton pro
* Sigma ceramic
* Chosera
* bester 1k or 1200

-----

The shapton pro 1k is still my favorite of all of those, because of no soak. Sorry stu, it's just one less thing for me to deal with.

-----


Discounting the soak/no-soak differentiation and only using cutting performance and surface finish as a metric, would you still go with the Shapton Pro 1k? I'm generally inclined to favor the Shapton Pro since I've been very pleased with most of the glass stones, but am very curious to see what El Schtoobo has up his sleeve with this new stone. With my luck he'll announce a new and perfect stone the very day my new order arrives. :eek:

Pretty much set on the Cho 10k for a new finishing stone.

And thanks for your and everyone else's contributions to this thread. This has been the most informative waterstone thread I've seen.

Archie England
12-17-2011, 4:17 PM
To each, our own prefs...

If soaking is not an issue, the speed, cutting, and finish of the Sigma Power ceramic is excellent. Orlando & I chose the Sigma; David and others, the Shapton. IMO, the finish from the Sigma is clearly better: but that's merely my opinion. Wait, go see Stu's sharpening discussion on his blog.

What I do know, Stu's 1000, 6000, 13000 sigma power package is without competition at his price offering. That 13000 sigma stone is rivaled only by much more expensive stones. End grain offers no resistance off the 13000. Of these three stones, the one rivaled by others is the 1k. But in the end, it's cheaper by far and bested only byfar more expensive stones.

BTW, I'm envious of you guys getting to try the Cho 10k; I hear grst things about it. However, I already own a superior stone so there's only the curious factor to address. Enjoy! Don't you just love these quality stones!

Jack Curtis
12-17-2011, 6:04 PM
+1. Too funny!!

I second that.

BTW, Orlando, for reshaping Japanese edges, I've always used a Makita horizontal water grinder with 60 and 100 stones. Works a charm and doesn't produce hollows. Just in case you want to add another choice. :)

Jack

Jack Curtis
12-17-2011, 6:12 PM
...Jack, Archie and I played hooky from work and got together in his shop yesterday. In addition to managing to get a little bit of work done on a project of his, we spent some time playing with his stone. Used the Cho 1k, Sig 1k, and Bester 1.2K side by side. My first reaction when I used the Bester was, "Wow, this feels a lot like the Sigma. It's quite a nice stone, and if I didn't immediately use the Sig and the Cho after it I don't think I would be very aware of how it differs from the Sig. The Bester, as has already been said, is harder feeling and it's also less gritty feeling. It also feels like it is cutting slower than then the Sig. It's almost funny to me how DEAD ON Stu's stone comparison is. The Bester is great on its own, but side by side with the Sig, I'd have to say I prefer the Sig. The Cho is very nice, but it does load and needs too much pampering. Now given that the Sig is the one I have and am used to it, makes sense that I would prefer it, but if I ranked the 3 I'd have to say the Sig 1k is #1 for me, the Bester 1.2K is a close second, and the Cho, well it's fantastic on so many levels, but again it's just a bit too finicky so I think I 'd prefer both the Bester and the Sig over it.

Thanks again, Chris. My Bester 1k was only about $50, so I'll keep it, following Orlando's example since it fits with mine more or less (he has more money, or did have :) ). I finally found Stu's treatise on 1K's, so that must be read; but I think the 1-6-13 is for me. This is more exciting than the Shapton craze, and I was in Harrleson's shop when it started!

Jack

David Weaver
12-17-2011, 7:37 PM
Discounting the soak/no-soak differentiation and only using cutting performance and surface finish as a metric, would you still go with the Shapton Pro 1k?

I probably wouldn't care - any of the ones I've mentioned. If I would convince myself the shapton 1000 would last the longest, I would buy it again, I guess.

For practical purposes, all of the brands we've mentioned are the same in the woodworking context, with the SPII being the only stones that are different of the new stones, and the clay binder stones being in a separate group.

If enough time is being spent on any of the 1k stones mentioned for it to be "too long", then the tool that's being sharpened needed to see the grinder a cycle ago.

I would still be just fine off with the king 800 that I started with if it wasn't for the cold water in my shop thing - I didn't at all look forward to dipping the stone into 40 degree water and pulling it back out more than once. If I had to do that a couple of times, it was so cold my hands ached.

Stuart Tierney
12-17-2011, 7:59 PM
With my luck he'll announce a new and perfect stone the very day my new order arrives. :eek:

Pretty much set on the Cho 10k for a new finishing stone.

And thanks for your and everyone else's contributions to this thread. This has been the most informative waterstone thread I've seen.


That's always a fear on orders I send out, and it's only really happened once. In that case, I took heart that the 'new' stone was much, much better than a previous recommendation (this panned out over 4 weeks or so, I was expecting 4 months) but the old wasn't a dog, so while some folks did end up with an 'old' stone, they still had something pretty danged effective, especially with the 'added extras' thrown in with that stone. ;)


At the present moment in time, there's not going to be any significant improvements to sharpening stones that I can readily identify, unless Sigma Power starts opening their tricks jar.

And that's what they're doing...

However, the old stone isn't half bad and won't be made obsolete overnight. If the old stone was not so hot, then I'd be more worried.

(And it arrives today. Gotta be happy being sent stones from the first batch for evaluation. :) )

Stu.

(Who's waiting for the truck to arrive...)

Orlando Gonzalez
12-17-2011, 8:40 PM
Jack,

I'll see your Makita horizontal water grinder with 60 and 100 stones and raise you the Jet Wet Grinder w/10" 220g stone, WC 8" Slo-speed Grinder with Norton 3X 46g wheels, and a Viel 1" x 42" bellt grinder with Trizact belts. ;):) BTW I currently own/use all 3 when appropriate, that is when the planets are aligned and Polaris is in sight. :)

I considered the Makita but was concerned how long the stones stayed flat. No matter what, that is a fine machine you got there and I wouldn't mind adding it to my arsenal one day. :D

Archie England
12-17-2011, 8:48 PM
Jack,

I'll see your Makita horizontal water grinder with 60 and 100 stones and raise you the Jet Wet Grinder w/10" 220g stone, WC 8" Slo-speed Grinder with Norton 3X 46g wheels, and a Viel 1" x 42" bellt grinder with Trizact belts. ;):) BTW I currently own/use all 3 when appropriate, that is when the planets are aligned and Polaris is in sight. :)

I considered the Makita but was concerned how long the stones stayed flat. No matter what, that is a fine machine you got there and I wouldn't mind adding it to my arsenal one day. :D

You know that whoever has the most toys, wins!!!!!

Gotta love this forum and folks!!!!

Jack Curtis
12-17-2011, 11:02 PM
...I considered the Makita but was concerned how long the stones stayed flat. No matter what, that is a fine machine you got there and I wouldn't mind adding it to my arsenal one day. :D

At least 10 years. :) It also redesigns the graphics on all my shop shirts, like an indelible laser.

Jack

Jack Curtis
12-17-2011, 11:04 PM
You know that whoever has the most toys, wins!!!!!

Oh, Orlando wins hands down. He's got 3 Tasai dovetails to my 1, to say nothing of that fancy 25k natural, probably cost as much as my house. :)

Jack