Glowforge release

[Jerome Stanek]

I was wondering if Glowforge has sent out any units yet. I thought they were supposed to release the middle of December.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think there are a lot of people with issues. Seems the December ship date was only for a small number of "beta testers" who will use them in educational and maker type spaces, and then they'll take feedback from those users and make changes needed and start working on the next wave. I've seen people say they they won't be getting it until August of 2016. I'd be a wee bit upset if I paid you $4,000 for something that I wouldn't get for a year after you took my money. But that's just me. I don't think I'm alone, since I saw a post where that announcement was made and then they said after that, they had 11,000 service tickets filed on their system. I don't suspect that was 11,000 tickets saying "No worries, just send it whenever you can....".

[Dave Sheldrake]

Latest seems to be public units hitting the end of 2016

[Jerome Stanek]

The reason I asked is I was wondering if anybody actually started using one and if their claim that the camera can follow the object.

[Matt McCoy]

Latest seems to be public units hitting the end of 2016

Where did you find that Dave?

"...units that were purchased before Oct 23 shipped in the first half of 2016. Units ordered after Oct 23 will ship in the summer of 2016."

[Dave Sheldrake]

Where did you find that Dave?

"...units that were purchased before Oct 23 shipped in the first half of 2016. Units ordered after Oct 23 will ship in the summer of 2016."

Somebody that paid for one got an email last week and mentioned it to me

[Bert Kemp]

Straight from their website"If you purchased on or before 10/24/15, your order will ship before July 2016. If you purchased after 10/24/15, your order will ship before October 2016."

Yikes Scott I'm with you, over a year with my cash and I got nothing to show for it:mad:. Then you have to hope that They can fix all the bugs:eek: I would never go in on a program like that. If it was something I wanted I'd wait till the company was actually making and selling them with good feedback. To many scams out there were people take your money and you get nothing in return or you get junk in return.



I think there are a lot of people with issues. Seems the December ship date was only for a small number of "beta testers" who will use them in educational and maker type spaces, and then they'll take feedback from those users and make changes needed and start working on the next wave. I've seen people say they they won't be getting it until August of 2016. I'd be a wee bit upset if I paid you $4,000 for something that I wouldn't get for a year after you took my money. But that's just me. I don't think I'm alone, since I saw a post where that announcement was made and then they said after that, they had 11,000 service tickets filed on their system. I don't suspect that was 11,000 tickets saying "No worries, just send it whenever you can....".

[Bill George]

I did not think they got paid in advance? Thought it was just a reservation. Nice write up in A&E magazine this month about the changes that home owned lasers like the GlowForge will bring to the market place.

[Kev Williams]

Paid in advance, hmmm... Just checked the 'rollout' page, almost $28 million.... in advance?

It that's so, what's to stop those with the money from retiring to some island somewhere?

[Jack Clague]

Paid in advance, hmmm... Just checked the 'rollout' page, almost $28 million.... in advance?

It that's so, what's to stop those with the money from retiring to some island somewhere?

If its a kickstarter.... Nothing

If its a "pre-order" via a companies website then they are legally bound to abide by commerce law and fulfill there proposed outcome for the funds

[Dave Sheldrake]

Kickstarter pay out when the KS funding finishes its run. So in effect if the KS has finished then they will have paid out the money.

[Dave Sheldrake]

If its a "pre-order" via a companies website then they are legally bound to abide by commerce law and fulfill there proposed outcome for the funds

Unless it's an LLC or Ltd then they can just fold the company :(

[Matt McCoy]

If its a kickstarter.... Nothing

If its a "pre-order" via a companies website then they are legally bound to abide by commerce law and fulfill there proposed outcome for the funds


Kickstarter pay out when the KS funding finishes its run. So in effect if the KS has finished then they will have paid out the money.


Not a Kickstarter.

[Jack Clague]

Unless it's an LLC or Ltd then they can just fold the company :(

Yep true that


Not a Kickstarter.

Ahh ok, haven't been following the glowforge scene so wasn't sure.

[Art Mann]

Whoever claimed a December "release" date was mistaken, whether he realized it or not. It appears the company is shipping a few beta test units. I wouldn't consider a product "released" until it is for sale to the general public. People who are paying in advance are simply buying a promise.

[Bill George]

So do you pay In Advance or not? It looks like on the Kickstarter site, your just Pledging to pay.

[Rich Harman]

So do you pay In Advance or not? It looks like on the Kickstarter site, your just Pledging to pay.

On Kickstarter you are charged immediately when the campaign ends, if it meets its goal.

[Kev Williams]

If its a "pre-order" via a companies website then they are legally bound to abide by commerce law and fulfill there proposed outcome for the funds

Unless it's an LLC or Ltd then they can just fold the company :(

Well, I don't know many embezzlers that would much care about any laws they're supposed to abide by, or what type of company's involved ;)

[Bill George]

Well, I don't know many embezzlers that would much care about any laws they're supposed to abide by, or what type of company's involved ;)
IF they have good attorneys in a corporation the company can be bankrupt and the principles can pay themselves salaries, bonus and expenses or hide the money. I don't know how a LLC works but I suspect its about the same.

My other thought for the day... is Sawmill Creek Engravers Forum going to a have a sub forum or a separate forum for GlowForge users? Thought #2 I see a money making opportunity for GlowForge 3D Laser service company.

[Bert Kemp]

IF they have good attorneys in a corporation the company can be bankrupt and the principles can pay themselves salaries, bonus and expenses or hide the money. I don't know how a LLC works but I suspect its about the same.

My other thought for the day... is Sawmill Creek Engravers Forum going to a have a sub forum or a separate forum for GlowForge users? Thought #2 I see a money making opportunity for GlowForge 3D Laser service company.

I see a bigger money maker in recycling the plastic cases as they pile up in the landfills.:D

[Kev Williams]

PLEASE let's not add a subforum for Glowforge. Then it'll be a Trotec forum, and Epilog forum, a Shenhui forum... all that does is split up the group and perpetuate the 'chevy sucks-ford sucks' mentality. Proof of this is the fact that 90%+ of those on this board are already on the 'glowforge sucks' bandwagon, even though 0% of us have any experience with them! And when you start splitting up forums by brand, a lot of good advice can go unseen (or un-given) because nobody is going to read thru every 'owner' forum.

Simpler solution is, if you don't want to read 'Glowforge' posts, don't. :)

[Keith Outten]

There will never be a forum dedicated to any laser manufacturer here, if they need one they can start their own.

We do have a groups service here, you will find various groups that have been started by our Community Members for a wide variety of companies and products. On the blue menu bar click on "Community" and then click "Groups" from the drop down list.
.

[Nigel P. Jones]

When they launched their pre-order campaign, they simply said "Shipping in December." Here's a screenshot of the order page from that time (http://i.imgur.com/u26K0t6.png) as proof.

However, as of February 11, zero Glowforge laser cutters have been shipped, according to the CEO quoted in this article (http://www.geekwire.com/2016/raising-28m-record-crowdfunding-campaign-glowforge-delays-initial-shipments/). However, they are still claiming that they will ship all of the units ordered during the original 30-day preorder campaign by the end of June. I'm guessing that is around 10,000 units based on their $28M raised. And yes, that is money that was fully pre-paid, not just "pledged."

It is pretty disengenuous to call what they ran a "crowdfunding campaign." It was no such thing. The company was fully funded with $9 million in venture capital. They ran a simple pre-order offer, but that doesn't sound as sexy as "crowdfunding campaign," just like "laser cutter and engraver" doesn't sound as sexy as "3D laser printer." After the original 30-day "campaign" ended, the price only went up 20 percent, still nowhere near the alleged "MSRP."

[Bill George]

So you joined just so you could post this press release to help quell any (more) rumors?

[Nigel P. Jones]

I've been following along lurking for quite some time. I just hadn't seen anyone else post this so I thought I would share it since it's directly relevant to the conversation. I'm not sure that the semi-dodgy quotes from the CEO are likely to "quell any (more) rumors," though. Even over on the official Glowforge community pages there seems to be more questions than answers.

[Jeff Belany]

Just saw this posted:

geekwire.com/2016/raising-28m-record-crowdfunding-campaign-glowforge-delays-initial-shipments/

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'll say this, the buyers of this product are WAY more patient than I would be. I picture these guys in a fancy Silicone Valley office making Silicone Valley minimum wage (80-100k a year) and not getting much done. I find it crazy that with their resources ($28m in pre-order money + $9m in VC funding), they can't even manage to get a working prototype at this point. My guess is their price point can't deliver the quality required to sell their more innovative ideas. If I had to guess, they figured each machine would cost $1000 to manufacture and the reality is, to get everything working, they costs are $1800-2000.

[Steve Morris]

Generally when a new idea comes along the software development will drain any budget in a matter of seconds. They are always over optimistic on real costs and timescales.
Would be nice to see a real one functioning on a continuous basis to see the camera returning real world useable performance.

[David Somers]

Steve! That is an easy desire to deal with. Just don't buy one until it has some track record to go on. Stay off of the bleeding edge!

I hope you aren't considering selling off your Speedy 300 for a glowforge??? (teasing grin)

Dave

[Steve Morris]

no not selling, but I might get a gf to prop that wobbly table leg :)

[Dee Gallo]

I spent some time corresponding with Glowforge back before the order deadline and asked a lot of questions. You cannot print directly from your own computer, nor directly from CorelDraw or any other software you own. The thing I found most concerning was the software they operate on the cloud, taking your file and therefore "sharing" it with the universe. Here is one of the responses I got, which I felt was a bit vague:



https://glowforge.zendesk.com/system/photos/0002/1883/3557/dan.jpg
Dan Shapiro (Glowforge)
Sep 29, 20:01
Jumping in for Jason, who is out at the moment - You keep your original files on your computer, then send a copy to the Glowforge server which prepares them and sends them to the machine.
The software that actually runs Glowforge runs in servers that we operate, so you don't need to install anything (other than your drawing software like Coreldraw). You access it from a web browser.
It can handle compound vector/bitmap files no problem.
It has pretty much everything we've seen in all of the leading lasers' control software, and a great deal more!
The internet is required to use the Glowforge. Most print jobs fit in the Glowforge's local print queue, so you just need the connection to start the print. If you lose connectivity while printing it will finish. However, bigger jobs may not fit and are sent down in smaller pieces. If you lose connectivity during a big print it will finish what it was doing, pause, and wait for connectivity to resume.

[Rich Harman]

The "cloud" has many advantages - as long as you have access to it. The user can have a better experience and the service provider can make more money. It's a win-win. Except when your internet provider goes down, or their servers go down, or they go out of business, or change their business model, or....

OnShape is a new cloud based CAD program started by one of the founders of Solidworks. AutoCAD Fusion 360 is another. I am switching from Solidworks to Fusion 360 primarily because Solidworks is just so expensive, and they recently changed their upgrade policy after we had purchased it. Their upgrade policy was one of the selling points for us - so I am a bit ticked about that.

OnShape looks awesome but is cloud only, no internet, no work gets done. Fusion 360 is awesome as well but if you lose internet you can work in an offline mode. They are both practically free, or actually free if you meet their requirements.

I would encourage everyone to choose the service that does not cripple you if (when) you lose internet.

[Bill George]

Yes I use Fusion 360 for doing 3D drawings and it works fine offline and can do so for a couple weeks. Sounds like with Glowforge if they go under or the server is down, you don't have the use of a $3000 machine.

[Ron Moorehead]

Some good news Glowforge is based in Washington State and this is what happen to one company that was funded through Kickstarter and was not full filling the orders:

http://www.polygon.com/2015/9/11/9310945/kickstarter-court-victory-attorney-general-washington-asylum-playing-cards (http://www.polygon.com/2015/9/11/9310945/kickstarter-court-victory-attorney-general-washington-asylum-playing-cards)

http://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/ag-makes-crowdfunded-company-pay-shady-deal

[Matt McCoy]

Not a Kickstarter. It looks like those that do not want to wait are issued refunds.

[Jason Hilton]

If you don't have the internet don't buy a Glowforge. If you have unreliable internet don't buy a glowforge. If you prefer to spend your time troubleshooting your cheap chinese laser and/or have the budget for a 20-30 thousand dollar laser, don't buy a Glowforge. If you don't like Glowforge because of their marketing, their funding strategy, their direct to consumer market strategy, or their design, don't buy a Glowforge. If you decide to believe despite all the clear evidence to the contrary that once you print a file Glowforge owns it (even though they've stated unequivocally they don't), don't buy a Glowforge. Feel free to buy anything else, because you can. If you prefer the high maintenance chinese laser and the crappy software experience, by all means, go with that. But quit with the bashing already. I could rip apart the software and hardware experience of every chinese laser on the market in half a breath.

[Rich Harman]

If you don't have the internet don't buy a Glowforge... <snip> ...quit with the bashing already. I could rip apart the software and hardware experience of every chinese laser on the market in half a breath.

I don't think any of the recent comments warrant such a demand for cessation of posting and I don't understand how your ability to bash Chinese lasers relates to this thread. If you have something to say about Chinese lasers, please do so in the appropriate thread. After all, I believe that is the purpose of this forum - to talk about lasers, all makes, good stuff and bad stuff.

[John Bion]

Rich, your gonna put the mods out of work :)
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Lets keep the forum as pleasant, useful and factual as it normally is.

[Jerome Stanek]

If you don't have the internet don't buy a Glowforge. If you have unreliable internet don't buy a glowforge. If you prefer to spend your time troubleshooting your cheap chinese laser and/or have the budget for a 20-30 thousand dollar laser, don't buy a Glowforge. If you don't like Glowforge because of their marketing, their funding strategy, their direct to consumer market strategy, or their design, don't buy a Glowforge. If you decide to believe despite all the clear evidence to the contrary that once you print a file Glowforge owns it (even though they've stated unequivocally they don't), don't buy a Glowforge. Feel free to buy anything else, because you can. If you prefer the high maintenance chinese laser and the crappy software experience, by all means, go with that. But FFS, quit with the bashing already. I could rip apart the software and hardware experience of every chinese laser on the market in half a breath.

We are waiting to see how the Glowforge will be as for reliablity and software goes. But nobody has been able to post anything as Glowforge does not exist outside of their labs. So you can't justify all your claims.

[Jason Hilton]

jerome, I'm not making any claims. But that's exactly the point isn't it? This, and several threads like it are full of bashing of everything from the marketing to the machine itself, all without a shred of real world evidence. Most recently, a shipping delay (which isn't even actually a delay) was posted as hard evidence that the Glowforge will fail. People will burn their houses down. The world is coming to an end. You can respond reasonably and still ask questions, but I haven't seen any of that here.

[Scott Shepherd]

Most recently, a shipping delay (which isn't even actually a delay) was posted

So a shipping schedule of "Will start shipping beta units in December" and it's now almost March, with no shipments made, and that's not "even actually a delay" (your words)? That's the rhetoric that makes some of us crazy.

[Bill George]

I don't think any of the recent comments warrant such a demand for cessation of posting and I don't understand how your ability to bash Chinese lasers relates to this thread. If you have something to say about Chinese lasers, please do so in the appropriate thread. After all, I believe that is the purpose of this forum - to talk about lasers, all makes, good stuff and bad stuff.

It was my understanding the Glowforge was being made in China and not sure of where the software is written. The hold up must be with the hardware as someone has already made the molds for the plastic case parts, at least from what you can see in the pictures.
I don't believe they are out to scam people. I just think they have miss judged the challenge of the project or someone has sold them some "blue sky" and the finished goods will be much further down the road and of course cost more. Almost like every project.

[Bert Kemp]

Right Bill most of it is made you know where and its even a cheaper POJ then the ones we have. Funny how people fail to recognize that point.



It was my understanding the Glowforge was being made in China and not sure of where the software is written. The hold up must be with the hardware as someone has already made the molds for the plastic case parts, at least from what you can see in the pictures.
I don't believe they are out to scam people. I just think they have miss judged the challenge of the project or someone has sold them some "blue sky" and the finished goods will be much further down the road and of course cost more. Almost like every project.

[Jason Hilton]

So a shipping schedule of "Will start shipping beta units in December" and it's now almost March, with no shipments made, and that's not "even actually a delay" (your words)? That's the rhetoric that makes some of us crazy.

Beta units are going to maybe 1/10 of 1% of purchasers. The ACTUAL final unit delivery schedule is still on time, so no, using the beta delivery blurb from a news article isn't relevant, or evidence of anything other that a smart and flexible testing process. What makes me crazy is the constant jumping to the sky is falling conclusion with no supporting evidence.

[Scott Shepherd]

Beta units are going to maybe 1/10 of 1% of purchasers. The ACTUAL final unit delivery schedule is still on time, so no, using the beta delivery blurb from a news article isn't relevant, or evidence of anything other that a smart and flexible testing process. What makes me crazy is the constant jumping to the sky is falling conclusion with no supporting evidence.

Interesting, so you're on the opposite side of the CEO who did interviews that said they were delaying shipments. That's been the beef with so many of us. It doesn't matter if we actually quote the CEO or not, we're still told what we say isn't accurate.

332261

[Nigel P. Jones]

Quite a few people who pre-ordered one of these things were under the impression that shipping of actual production units would begin in December.

http://community.glowforge.com/t/shipping-laser-units-until-next-year/605


According to a local business article in the Seattle times, all units will be shipping until early next year?

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/glowforge-raises-274-million-breaks-crowdfunding-record/115


Is this correct?

I guess I missed the * after the word December.


Uhmmm...that better NOT be the case.


Ugh.. what? I was thinking when they said they would roll out units and December that I would get mine around January at the latest. If its much past January I might have to just cancel I seriously cant wait that long I have work for this thing to do..

Gee, I wonder how they got that idea?

332263

[That's what the order page looked like when they launched their pre-order campaign in September.]

They did hedge that fairly early on to clarify that just the "first units" would ship in December. Here's what the CEO said on November 23 (http://community.glowforge.com/t/discussion-thread-for-update-8-latest-update-on-shipping/868):


When we launched, we said “First units shipping December 2015”, and then went on to say that units purchased before October 23 would ship in the first half of 2016. Now the first shipments are about to happen! (Stay tuned for an email in a few days on how you can apply to get one of the first few beta units). However, we’ve heard from a few people who thought that all the shipments would happen in December. Unfortunately, that’s not the case. To make sure your final Glowforge is as good as it can possibly be, we’re going to start by shipping a small number of beta units starting in two weeks. We’ll build the next set of units on a small test line over the course of the month. Then, the majority of units will roll out in the first half of next year.

According to that Geekwire article, none of that has happened yet. I don't see how anyone can say that "isn't even actually a delay."

[Bill George]

So other than a You Tube video no one has ever seen a GF actually work? I also recall there was a trade show where they took 3 prototypes but no working model. The concept and design look wonderful.

[Jason Hilton]

I'm going to stick with the official communication.

332271


Interesting, so you're on the opposite side of the CEO who did interviews that said they were delaying shipments. That's been the beef with so many of us. It doesn't matter if we actually quote the CEO or not, we're still told what we say isn't accurate.

332261

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm not sure why that's more official than the CEO telling a tech website that they haven't delivered any units and that the units they said were going to ship in December didn't. The CEO is about as "Official" as it gets. He's the one that said it, not any of us. We are simply repeating his own words, and then we're told that we're wrong, it was never said.

If we quote the CEO and are told that that's not correct, I'm not sure how to have a conversation about any of it. I didn't say they haven't shipped their December promised units, Dan S. did. If you disagree with it, then tell him he's wrong, don't tell me I'm wrong because I didn't say it, he did.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm going to stick with the official communication.

332271That official communication says "We do not have public beta units in the field yet.", as of 2/22/16. In what universe is that not a delay in shipment?

[Jason Hilton]

It's a delay in beta testing. For those of us who've worked in product development, and to most of those who applied to beta test, that kind of delay is normal. The pertinent part is "Scheduled to ship all pre-orders by the end of June" which is as originally promised.


That official communication says "We do not have public beta units in the field yet.", as of 2/22/16. In what universe is that not a delay in shipment?

[Matt McCoy]

The announcement notes that there are no public beta units (i.e., schools, makerspaces) in the field. There are private beta testers, which have signed NDAs.

[Jacob John]

jerome, I'm not making any claims. But that's exactly the point isn't it? This, and several threads like it are full of bashing of everything from the marketing to the machine itself, all without a shred of real world evidence. Most recently, a shipping delay (which isn't even actually a delay) was posted as hard evidence that the Glowforge will fail. People will burn their houses down. The world is coming to an end. You can respond reasonably and still ask questions, but I haven't seen any of that here.

I'm not even about to take sides, but this article on reddit is pretty bad, although many companies do this with blog sites.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3poe4m/ethics_boingboing_caught_redhanded_they_ran_a/

[Lee DeRaud]

The announcement notes that there are no public beta units (i.e., schools, makerspaces) in the field. There are private beta testers, which have signed NDAs.Which, for the purposes of defining "shipment", are no different from units still in GF's own facility, except for possibly having spent time in a FedEx truck.

[Kev Williams]

This may be a stupid analogy, and I don't remember the EXACT story (It was on an 'inventors' show) but it went something like this...

Back in 1977 when Star Wars came out, some guy took his kid(s) to see it.

When he got home, he found a flashlight, took one of those white protective tubes for golf clubs out of his golf bag, duct-taped it to the flashlight, and Voila-- He had a light saber...

He took his light saber to Walmart (I think it was, maybe K-mart), and showed it to a store clerk- who showed it to his boss- who called his boss, who called HIS boss, etc etc...

And finally someone on the other end told him "We'll take 30,000 of 'em"

So here's a guy with a flashlight and golf club tube and somebody-Mart wants him to produce 30,000 more. How do you deal with that?

Whether this laser turns out to be an albatross or the best thing since sliced bread, I can only imagine the difficulty in trying to produce 10 or 15 THOUSAND of them when the original estimate was 500...

[Rich Harman]

Whether this laser turns out to be an albatross or the best thing since sliced bread, I can only imagine the difficulty in trying to produce 10 or 15 THOUSAND of them when the original estimate was 500...

That's a good analogy for a typical Kickstarter campaign, but not for a venture capital funded company with many millions of dollars that is run by people with previous experience in development and production.

[Bill George]

So it seems that other than a Skype demo, no one has ever had a "hands on" unit for testing? Please correct me if I am wrong, this is from Jacob Johns post.
So inside the box could be a standard off the shelf laser / engraver using standard control software but being made to appear being controlled by a non existing cloud software?

[Scott Shepherd]

So it seems that other than a Skype demo, no one has ever had a "hands on" unit for testing? Please correct me if I am wrong, this is from Jacob Johns post.
So inside the box could be a standard off the shelf laser / engraver using standard control software but being made to appear being controlled by a non existing cloud software?

Oh, I don't think that at all. I think it's a real product and it will be delivered. My guess is that many of the issues that experienced laser users voiced and were beat down for voicing are now at the point where they are being realized as having been something to serious consider instead of dismissing so easily.

It's easy to put a camera system in a laser. It's much different to keep smoke residue from making those cameras useless or inaccurate pretty quickly. One's concept, one's real world. Those two collide somewhere in the development process.

[Jerome Stanek]

When I started this thread I was just asking when Glowforge was going to ship and some people started giving excuses as why it is such a great system but not the ship date.

[Lee DeRaud]

One's concept, one's real world. Those two collide somewhere in the development process.In well-engineered products, that collision is handled a long way upstream from the beta-test stage. Just saying.

[Kev Williams]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kev Williams http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2533206#post2533206)
Whether this laser turns out to be an albatross or the best thing since sliced bread, I can only imagine the difficulty in trying to produce 10 or 15 THOUSAND of them when the original estimate was 500...



That's a good analogy for a typical Kickstarter campaign, but not for a venture capital funded company with many millions of dollars that is run by people with previous experience in development and production.

A major part of my business is engraving for companies such as Glowforge, many just getting started, many that have been in business as long as I have. And I'm always the last in the chain, and I'm always asked to "PLEASE RUSH THIS JOB!" And it's always the same reasons: We've been waiting on [enter one to several other vendors here] to come thru, and now this job is [enter appropriate: days, weeks, months, years] behind! I was told once that I was holding up a space shuttle mission... ;)

Millions of dollars and lots of experience can buy lots of stuff, but it can't speed up the materials acquisition, engineering and manufacturing processes. The plastic supplier(s), the mold maker(s), the injection mold company(ies), laser tube mfr(s), aluminum extrusion supplier(s), camera supplier(s), stepper motor supplier(s), belt supplier(s), etc etc--- All of these suppliers and mfr's were likely issued RFQ's in quantities up to maybe 1000 pieces. Now every one of them is being asked to supply around 20x that amount. Any ONE of them having trouble meeting that demand is going to slow up the process. It's likely ALL of them are having trouble...

[Matt McCoy]

So it seems that other than a Skype demo, no one has ever had a "hands on" unit for testing? Please correct me if I am wrong, this is from Jacob Johns post.
So inside the box could be a standard off the shelf laser / engraver using standard control software but being made to appear being controlled by a non existing cloud software?

Hey Bill: Glowforge had demos at the World Maker Faire in New York and at CES, which is one of the largest consumer electronic shows in the world (if you're not familiar) and was named an Engadget (Best of CES 2016 Finalist). You can Google SYFY and Inc. magazine, both which were able to stop by the booth and make a tchotchke for a little video. The only "hands on" testers are Glowforge and its beta volunteers, since it has not been released yet.


When I started this thread I was just asking when Glowforge was going to ship and some people started giving excuses as why it is such a great system but not the ship date.

Where do you see that?


In well-engineered products, that collision is handled a long way upstream from the beta-test stage. Just saying.

Oh, I don't know. Apple is behind schedule on almost every product launch and seem to ship later than promised each time. So has Airbus, Amazon, Google, Samsung, and many more with tons of experience with the manufacturing process. Perhaps, they are not well-engineered — I don't know.

Most crowd-funded projects that knock it out of the park and sell way more products than they expect, encounter delays.

"Backers are signing up to participate in the development process, including all of its obstacles and setbacks. "If you want a watch, you can go buy a watch," Strickler says. "People turn to the analogs of consumer behavior, as if this is a Wal-Mart online store."

http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/18/technology/innovation/kickstarter-ship-delay/

[Matt McCoy]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kev Williams http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2533206#post2533206)
Whether this laser turns out to be an albatross or the best thing since sliced bread, I can only imagine the difficulty in trying to produce 10 or 15 THOUSAND of them when the original estimate was 500...




A major part of my business is engraving for companies such as Glowforge, many just getting started, many that have been in business as long as I have. And I'm always the last in the chain, and I'm always asked to "PLEASE RUSH THIS JOB!" And it's always the same reasons: We've been waiting on [enter one to several other vendors here] to come thru, and now this job is [enter appropriate: days, weeks, months, years] behind! I was told once that I was holding up a space shuttle mission... ;)

Millions of dollars and lots of experience can buy lots of stuff, but it can't speed up the materials acquisition, engineering and manufacturing processes. The plastic supplier(s), the mold maker(s), the injection mold company(ies), laser tube mfr(s), aluminum extrusion supplier(s), camera supplier(s), stepper motor supplier(s), belt supplier(s), etc etc--- All of these suppliers and mfr's were likely issued RFQ's in quantities up to maybe 1000 pieces. Now every one of them is being asked to supply around 20x that amount. Any ONE of them having trouble meeting that demand is going to slow up the process. It's likely ALL of them are having trouble...

Brilliant post!

[Lee DeRaud]

Oh, I don't know. Apple is behind schedule on almost every product launch and seem to ship later than promised each time. So has Airbus, Amazon, Google, Samsung, and many more with tons of experience with the manufacturing process. Perhaps, they are not well-engineered — I don't know.Yes, Apple/Samsung/et al experience schedule delays, but the delays are generally not due to highly-touted features not working at the entry to beta-test. Although I admit, it's unclear GF is even at the beta-test point yet. The hand-waving up-thread about "private beta test" is truly silly, in that there is already a commonly-used term for that: alpha test.

[Lee DeRaud]

When I started this thread I was just asking when Glowforge was going to ship and some people started giving excuses as why it is such a great system but not the ship date.What strikes me is that the tone seems to have shifted from claims that it's right on schedule to a litany of excuses for why it's late.

[Kev Williams]

Doesn't take long for life to imitate more life--

I just posted up above not long ago today about the headaches with production...

I just got off the phone with a customer, they build mining trucks. Two trucks have been delivered, half way across the country. Only they're missing some labels. Most important, they're missing their ID plates. Trucks MUST be operational first thing tomorrow morning, and they by law must have all the labels in place. My customer (the owner) must fly out tonight with the needed ID tags and missing labels and signage. The list of labels was supposed to be sent to me last Thursday. The buyer just noticed (even though I've emailed him and spoke to others several times) that he didn't send me the list. I just got it...

It's about 4 hours of work-- good additional money, but I DID have other plans and other customer's work to do! So now I'm once again needing to work MY butt off to save someone elses!

--- this is just one tiny example of a manufacturing process going into chaos for one small company. I can only imagine what Glowforge is going thru... ;)

[Jason Hilton]

Where has it been stated that the delays are due to problems with "highly touted features"? Where has it been stated that there have been delays at all? They've stated they're on schedule to deliver all pre-orders by the end of June, which was stated out front. They've stated there are no public beta units, but also that private beta units are in the wild. As someone who works in large product development I can state unequivocally that private beta testing is the norm, not the exception.


Yes, Apple/Samsung/et al experience schedule delays, but the delays are generally not due to highly-touted features not working at the entry to beta-test. Although I admit, it's unclear GF is even at the beta-test point yet. The hand-waving up-thread about "private beta test" is truly silly, in that there is already a commonly-used term for that: alpha test.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Hey Bill: Glowforge had demos at the World Maker Faire in New York and at CES, which is one of the largest consumer electronic shows in the world (if you're not familiar) and was named an Engadget (Best of CES 2016 Finalist). You can Google SYFY and Inc. magazine, both which were able to stop by the booth and make a tchotchke for a little video. The only "hands on" testers are Glowforge and its beta volunteers, since it has not been released yet.

Just our of curiosity, did you read the reviews from NY and CES? I don't care what you buy or don't buy, but let's not paint a positive picture of how this machine has performed in public settings. https://www.reddit.com/r/glowforge/comments/3msemb/glowforge_maker_faire_review/
(https://www.reddit.com/r/glowforge/comments/3msemb/glowforge_maker_faire_review/)
My gut says they over promised and are struggling to deliver at the price point they've picked. They should make a machine that works, "price be damned" and then adjust the price significantly for general sale. If they get a really strong user base of happy customers, they'll sell units even if they are $1000-2000 more than originally projected.

[Scott Shepherd]

Where has it been stated that there have been delays at all?

I hate to keep repeating myself, but the source of the "delay" is coming directly from the CEO....

332338332339

If the CEO has told these 2 tech sites that they have delayed the shipment of the machines promised in December, I tend to think it means that they have DELAYED the machines promised in December. No hidden meaning there, no bashing of anyone, just the CEO actually saying it's delayed, yet you keep posting that there have been no delays. I guess Dan S. is wrong?

[Matt McCoy]

Just our of curiosity, did you read the reviews from NY and CES?

Yes.


I don't care what you buy or don't buy, but let's not paint a positive picture of how this machine has performed in public settings. https://www.reddit.com/r/glowforge/comments/3msemb/glowforge_maker_faire_review/

I'm a little hurt that you don't care. :) I think you might be misinterpreting my lack of negativity as "painting a positive picture". I think it's just more neutral and open-minded. Admittedly, I am generally an optimist, but my statement that you quoted above is all true.


My gut says they over promised and are struggling to deliver at the price point they've picked. They should make a machine that works, "price be damned" and then adjust the price significantly for general sale. If they get a really strong user base of happy customers, they'll sell units even if they are $1000-2000 more than originally projected.

I'm not going to speculate on the Beta delay, but selling these machines for thousands of dollars more takes them out of the market that they are after.

[Art Mann]

I see the "Crowdfund Insider" that Scott posted is still propagating the myth that this machine is in any way a 3-D device.

[Bill George]

Matt said: I'm not going to speculate on the Beta delay, but selling these machines for thousands of dollars more takes them out of the market that they are after.

Exactly, it will not end up being a consumer item like a toaster or microwave. They have a nice looking machine and the concept is great... but not at that price point or time frame.

[Matt McCoy]

Matt said: I'm not going to speculate on the Beta delay, but selling these machines for thousands of dollars more takes them out of the market that they are after.

Exactly, it will not end up being a consumer item like a toaster or microwave. They have a nice looking machine and the concept is great... but not at that price point or time frame.

Good morning Bill. The expression "good, fast, and cheap..." probably applies here too and sums up how difficult a challenge Glowforge faces. I read somewhere that Dan stated that they have (paraphrasing):

Tens of millions of dollars.
Tens of thousands of customers.
Tens of employees and will need a recruiter.

I think that is where the rubber hits the road.

[Bert Kemp]

and everything they do to try and improve building machines faster and faster delivery will drive up the cost.



Good morning Bill. The expression "good, fast, and cheap..." probably applies here too and sums up how difficult a challenge Glowforge faces. I read somewhere that Dan stated that they have (paraphrasing):

Tens of millions of dollars.
Tens of thousands of customers.
Tens of employees and will need a recruiter.

I think that is where the rubber hits the road.

[Rich Harman]

... I can only imagine the difficulty in trying to produce 10 or 15 THOUSAND of them when the original estimate was 500...

....All of these suppliers and mfr's were likely issued RFQ's in quantities up to maybe 1000 pieces. Now every one of them is being asked to supply around 20x that amount.

Didn't they get something like ten million dollars in venture capital? Hard to believe that they were able to raise that much money only expecting to produce a few hundred units.

[Matt McCoy]

Didn't they get something like ten million dollars in venture capital? Hard to believe that they were able to raise that much money only expecting to produce a few hundred units.

They expected to produce about a 1,000 to 2,000 units.

Tony W. (Co-founder): "Internally, we thought we could hit $2M in sales and talked about calling it a “high five success” if we hit $5M."

The campaign was around $10M.

[Doug Griffith]

So the "Refund Policy" won't be published until units start shipping. The "Terms of Service" is not published yet either (only the "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase" is). The "Limited Warranty" is not published either (the page doesn't even exist - 404 error). Note that there is a distinct difference in how the verbiage is referred to ("these Terms" vs. "Terms of Service") throughout the terms. If the unavailable "Terms of Service" is violated, the unavailable "Refund Policy" based on the unavailable "Limited Warranty" applies.


So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.


The below is direct from Glowforge's "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase":


Section 9:
The Products will not work without an Internet connection and an account on the Glowforge Service. Use of the Glowforge Service is subject to the Glowforge Terms of Service. If you violate the Glowforge Terms of Service, you may not be able to use the Product or certain features of the Glowforge Product. Glowforge will not be liable for your inability to use the Product, and your sole and exclusive remedy will be to request a refund if allowed by the Glowforge Refund Policy, described in Section 4.


Section 4:
If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies. Instead, Glowforge’s refund policy and limited warranties will apply. The Glowforge refund policy will be published on the Glowforge website at the time when Glowforge begins shipping Products (“Refund Policy”). For further information on Glowforge’s limited warranties, please see Section 11 of these Terms.


Section 11:
Limited Warranty and Disclaimer. Glowforge will be providing the details of its limited warranties for Products on Glowforge’s website at glowforge.com/warranty before Glowforge requests your shipping address and accepts your offer to purchase. By providing your shipping address to us, you acknowledge and agree that you have reviewed the limited warranty for the Product you offered to purchase, and that you accept that limited warranty. Glowforge will also provide the warranty terms for a Product together with the shipped Product. If you are dissatisfied with the warranty terms once published, you may contact Glowforge Support to rescind your pre-order and we will refund the amount you paid in connection with your pre-order in full. EXCEPT AS MAY BE EXPRESSLY PROVIDED BY GLOWFORGE IN THE WARRANTY APPLICABLE TO A PRODUCT AT THE TIME THE ORDER FOR THE PRODUCT IS ACCEPTED, AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, PRODUCTS ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT GUARANTEED WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND GLOWFORGE HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCT, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO: (A) THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS; AND (B) ANY WARRANTY ARISING OUT OF COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT USE OF ANY PRODUCT WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR FREE OF ERRORS OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS, AND DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY OF THOSE ISSUES WILL BE CORRECTED. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY PRODUCT COMPLIES WITH ALL APPLICABLE LAWS OR REGULATIONS IN ANY PARTICULAR JURISDICTION. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU ASSUME ALL RISK FOR ANY DAMAGE THAT MAY RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF THE PRODUCT.

[Lee DeRaud]

Section 11:
Limited Warranty and Disclaimer. Glowforge will be providing the details of its limited warranties for Products on Glowforge’s website at glowforge.com/warranty before Glowforge requests your shipping address and accepts your offer to purchase. By providing your shipping address to us, you acknowledge and agree that you have reviewed the limited warranty for the Product you offered to purchase, and that you accept that limited warranty. Glowforge will also provide the warranty terms for a Product together with the shipped Product. If you are dissatisfied with the warranty terms once published, you may contact Glowforge Support to rescind your pre-order and we will refund the amount you paid in connection with your pre-order in full. EXCEPT AS MAY BE EXPRESSLY PROVIDED BY GLOWFORGE IN THE WARRANTY APPLICABLE TO A PRODUCT AT THE TIME THE ORDER FOR THE PRODUCT IS ACCEPTED, AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, PRODUCTS ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT GUARANTEED WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND GLOWFORGE HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCT, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO: (A) THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS; AND (B) ANY WARRANTY ARISING OUT OF COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT USE OF ANY PRODUCT WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR FREE OF ERRORS OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS, AND DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY OF THOSE ISSUES WILL BE CORRECTED. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY PRODUCT COMPLIES WITH ALL APPLICABLE LAWS OR REGULATIONS IN ANY PARTICULAR JURISDICTION. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU ASSUME ALL RISK FOR ANY DAMAGE THAT MAY RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF THE PRODUCT.The phrase running through my head as I read that is "quantum warranty". The terms are like Schrodinger's cat, neither applicable nor inapplicable until such time as the product's wave function collapses to some state corresponding to reality.

IANAL, so I will refrain from commenting on some of the more obvious legal howlers in that paragraph, except to note that, since it states that the product itself need not comply with all (any?) of the applicable laws in whatever jurisdiction the purchaser resides in, one cannot expect the warranty itself to do so. You sort of have to wonder why they even bothered to put that on the web site.

[David Somers]

Lee, I love the Schroedinger's Cat warrantee! That is how it reads. Pretty amusing.

I have to admit, that since they are a local, Seattle company I am routing for them, but as I keep reading what is in the news and their various statements I am dubious to say the least. I am not a bleeding edge kind of buyer most of the time, and in their case I would certainly wait for a considerable time to see how the product pans out before considering them. Assuming I didn't already have a laser in my garage to begin with.

My best wishes to the cat!!

Dave

[Rich Harman]

They expected to produce about a 1,000 to 2,000 units.

Tony W. (Co-founder): "Internally, we thought we could hit $2M in sales and talked about calling it a “high five success” if we hit $5M."

The campaign was around $10M.

They raised $9 million before they started the pre-sales "campaign".

$9,000K for one or two thousand units??? I think their (true) expectations were much higher than that. Everything Glowforge has done has been working towards a home-run marketing campaign. To say they thought they would only sell a max of two thousand units does not mesh well with I consider to be reality.

In my opinion, the comments of how surprised they are that they got so much interest is just more marketing. Consider the previous success that Dan S has had with crowdfunding, the knowledge of how widespread lasers are becoming, the popularity of makerspaces and the maker "movement", the $9 million that other people invested in the idea and it becomes implausible that they truly thought one or two thousand units would have been a success.

[Jason Hilton]

So the "Refund Policy" won't be published until units start shipping. The "Terms of Service" is not published yet either (only the "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase" is). The "Limited Warranty" is not published either (the page doesn't even exist - 404 error). Note that there is a distinct difference in how the verbiage is referred to ("these Terms" vs. "Terms of Service") throughout the terms. If the unavailable "Terms of Service" is violated, the unavailable "Refund Policy" based on the unavailable "Limited Warranty" applies.


So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.



Your conclusion isn't supported in any way based on the available information (which you posted), and that's the problem with this whole discussion. You're all making sky-is-falling judgements based on no information.

[Doug Griffith]

I have no conclusion except that their terms of service, warranty, and return policy are non-existant. Please prove me wrong.

[Dan Hintz]

The phrase running through my head as I read that is "quantum warranty". The terms are like Schrodinger's cat, neither applicable nor inapplicable until such time as the product's wave function collapses to some state corresponding to reality.

This brought tears of joy to my eyes, Lee :D

[Dave Sheldrake]

I see the "Crowdfund Insider" that Scott posted is still propagating the myth that this machine is in any way a 3-D device.

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

[Gary Hair]

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

A rose by any other name is still a rose...

[Bert Kemp]

Isn't calling this a laser printer an out right LIE? a laser printer is like you said office equipment. it uses toner or ink or something and prints words and pictures and stuff on paper and like material. A Laser printer doesn't engrave or cut paper, wood , leather and such.
Just because you name something that it isn't doesn't make it so. Its still a laser that cuts and engraves and should be held to those standards by the countries that it being imported to.:confused:



I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

[Matt McCoy]

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

All the best for you and your family Dave. There are two models: Basic (Class 1) and Pro (Class 4). Does this theory still apply and how does that affect their largest market (U.S.)?

[Jason Hilton]

You MADE a conclusion, which I quoted...


I have no conclusion except that their terms of service, warranty, and return policy are non-existant. Please prove me wrong.

[Rich Harman]

I see the "Crowdfund Insider" that Scott posted is still propagating the myth that this machine is in any way a 3-D device.

I believe Dan S. when he explained that they chose to call it a 3D Laser Printer in order to convey to the average person what it's capabilities are. A 3D printer is not actually a printer but that doesn't stop anyone from calling it that.

Even my sons, who were raised to be technically accurate, still accidentally refer to what my laser does as "printing". When I was mentoring a FIRST team, the students were constantly asking me to "print" things with my laser. In both cases I always correct them, and it has helped, but not eliminated the term from being misapplied.

For the record, I do not support their decision to call it a 3D Laser Printer, I am against dumbing things down in order to cater to those that don't care to learn.

[Kev Williams]

This thread is good for a chuckle for me, just because of the varying opinions :D -- of which I have many myself ;)

As to 3D... Even a postage stamp is '3-dimensional'. If you print anything on one side only, that's 2-dimensional printing. If you print on any other sides, you've now accomplished 3-dimensional printing.... or lasering, or engraving, and even "etching" has been called into question so I really don't care what you call it!

Dan made himself a leather briefcase with a Glowforge. I'm pretty sure a briefcase is 3-dimensional... ?

If I'm not mistaken (and I may well be :) ) what actually wouldn't be possible is '1-dimensional' or '4-dimensional' printing.

[Rich Harman]

This thread is good for a chuckle for me... ...If you print anything on one side only, that's 2-dimensional printing.

Of course nothing tangible exists in two dimensions. If it is composed of matter, it is three dimensional. So both my laser printer and my ink jet printers are in fact, technically, 3D printers - more-so than my FDM "printer" and even more-so than the Glowforge.

[David Somers]

And lets not forget that our lasers always take time to do their work, some more than others of course! So my inexpensive Chinese laser, which clearly is 3D by our definition, can easily be called a 4D printer because it involves time! I can even control the amount of time involved by varying the power output and speed! 4D! Wow!!! <grin>

[Doug Griffith]

You MADE a conclusion, which I quoted...

Oops, I pointed out reality. Please show me where those documents exist. A couple sentences in the FAQs don't cut it since the aforementioned documents themselves are referred to in the terms.

[Matt McCoy]

...except to note that, since it states that the product itself need not comply with all (any?) of the applicable laws in whatever jurisdiction the purchaser resides in, one cannot expect the warranty itself to do so. You sort of have to wonder why they even bothered to put that on the web site.

If this is what you are referring to, here's what is actually stated:

"GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY PRODUCT COMPLIES WITH ALL APPLICABLE LAWS OR REGULATIONS IN ANY PARTICULAR JURISDICTION. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW..."

My interpretation is:

"It is your responsibility to determine whether your use of the Product complies with local laws, regulations, and ordinances. For example, Glowforge makes units available with air filters, but you are still responsible for determining whether the air filter meets the standards required by the laws in your jurisdiction. You may request information about the Product from Glowforge to assist you in making your determination, but Glowforge will not be liable for errors in that information or for your determination. If you do not have sufficient information to determine whether your use of the Product will comply with all applicable laws, regulations, and ordinances, then you should not offer to purchase the Product. If you rescind your offer prior to our acceptance of it, we will refund to you the full amount you paid in connection with your offer. You must also use the Product in strict accordance with the user documentation provided together with the Product."


So the "Refund Policy" won't be published until units start shipping. The "Terms of Service" is not published yet either (only the "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase" is). The "Limited Warranty" is not published either (the page doesn't even exist - 404 error). Note that there is a distinct difference in how the verbiage is referred to ("these Terms" vs. "Terms of Service") throughout the terms. If the unavailable "Terms of Service" is violated, the unavailable "Refund Policy" based on the unavailable "Limited Warranty" applies...

"Glowforge will be providing the details of its limited warranties for Products on Glowforge’s website at glowforge.com/warranty before Glowforge requests your shipping address and accepts your offer to purchase. By providing your shipping address to us, you acknowledge and agree that you have reviewed the limited warranty for the Product you offered to purchase, and that you accept that limited warranty."

You can request a refund at any time. When the units are ready to ship, Glowforge will ask for an address and publish its final warranty conditions. You can choose to accept and then provide your shipping address or decline and ask for a refund.

[Dave Sheldrake]

All the best for you and your family Dave. There are two models: Basic (Class 1) and Pro (Class 4). Does this theory still apply and how does that affect their largest market (U.S.)?

Cheers Matty,

No idea to be honest, I know it affects import and export within the EU in a big way but I'm not up on US regulation of industrial equipment

[Jason Hilton]

No, you said this, which is a statement of fact, and therefor a conclusion:


So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.



Oops, I pointed out reality. Please show me where those documents exist. A couple sentences in the FAQs don't cut it since the aforementioned documents themselves are referred to in the terms.

[Art Mann]

Pardon me if I repeat a previous post on the subject but calling the Glowforge a 3-D printer is precisely the same thing as calling my table saw a 3-D cabinet maker or my CNC router a 3-D box maker. I think it is deceptive and downright stupid to call any flat space marking or cutting machine 3-D. Below is a picture of my new 3-D house printer.

332460

[Doug Griffith]

No, you said this, which is a statement of fact, and therefor a conclusion:

Jason, you're arguing semantics and avoiding the subject. It's OK to be wrong.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Jason, you're arguing semantics and avoiding the subject. It's OK to be wrong.

Quoting Larry the Cable Guy .... Now that's funny right there. I don't care who you are. That there is funny.

[Clark Pace]

Jason, you're arguing semantics and avoiding the subject. It's OK to be wrong.

If anything I would call it 2D or maybe 2.5d. More of a CNC term though. Not a laser.

[Nigel P. Jones]

Below is a picture of my new 3-D house printer.
Bravo, sir. Good one.

[Jason Hilton]

Jason, you're arguing semantics and avoiding the subject. It's OK to be wrong.


No I'm not, I'm quoting you verbatim and you're calling it semantics. It's OK to admit that you're wrong.

[Matt McCoy]

They're aware that some won't like the name. From a recent interview:

"A bit off-topic from the crowdfunding campaign, but I have to ask: Does it drive you crazy to call a laser cutter a 3d laser printer?

Tony Wright : A tiny bit! That was another big discussion. Calling this a “Laser Cutter / Engraver” would’ve been a terrible decision if our goal is to sell this to consumers. Any time we demo’d the Glowforge to people who’d never used a laser cutter, they’d later say, “I really liked that laser printer of yours!” Pretty soon we stopped correcting them. We knew this would annoy some grumpy old school makers, but we’ve been surprised at how few of them are bothered by it. It was a calculated bet that costs us a few sales today, but gave us a category name when we’re talking to laser neophytes – which will be an increasing percentage of our customer base."

[Doug Griffith]

No I'm not, I'm quoting you verbatim and you're calling it semantics. It's OK to admit that you're wrong.

Jason, you are the master of quoting verbatim and using it as a diversionary tactic to avoid the original question. It's entertaining and boring at the same time. Let's go back to the beginning.


You followed this:

So the "Refund Policy" won't be published until units start shipping. The "Terms of Service" is not published yet either (only the "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase" is). The "Limited Warranty" is not published either (the page doesn't even exist - 404 error). Note that there is a distinct difference in how the verbiage is referred to ("these Terms" vs. "Terms of Service") throughout the terms. If the unavailable "Terms of Service" is violated, the unavailable "Refund Policy" based on the unavailable "Limited Warranty" applies.


So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.


With this:

Your conclusion isn't supported in any way based on the available information (which you posted), and that's the problem with this whole discussion. You're all making sky-is-falling judgements based on no information.


Please tell me what I concluded that is wrong. "you get what you get" maybe?

[Jason Hilton]

Jason, you are the master of quoting verbatim and using it as a diversionary tactic to avoid the original question. It's entertaining and boring at the same time. Let's go back to the beginning.


You followed this:



With this:



Please tell me what I concluded that is wrong. "you get what you get" maybe?


You said this:

"So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get."

The "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before it starts shipping" is a conclusion you reached based on not being able to read the warranty and return policy because said policies are not available. It's an erroneous conclusion. Your argument is a logical fallacy, assuming that since a policy isn't available it must be the policy you believe. So you're wrong. Or more appropriately, you're not right, because you can't make that statement as true since you countered it in your own post by stating that those policies are not available to evaluate. You're wrong and you proved it yourself.

[Matt McCoy]

Jason, you are the master of quoting verbatim and using it as a diversionary tactic to avoid the original question. It's entertaining and boring at the same time. Let's go back to the beginning.


You followed this:



With this:



Please tell me what I concluded that is wrong. "you get what you get" maybe?

If your position is that "...the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.", then I think you would be incorrect. You get what you agree to. Like any purchase, no? I pointed out above that you will agree to terms/warranty before the unit is shipped. After that, you will have either a 6 or 12 month warranty. Asking for a refund before the unit ships is not the only way to "not own a possible brick".

[Art Mann]

Tony Wright : A tiny bit! That was another big discussion. Calling this a “Laser Cutter / Engraver” would’ve been a terrible decision if our goal is to sell this to consumers. Any time we demo’d the Glowforge to people who’d never used a laser cutter, they’d later say, “I really liked that laser printer of yours!” Pretty soon we stopped correcting them. We knew this would annoy some grumpy old school makers, but we’ve been surprised at how few of them are bothered by it. It was a calculated bet that costs us a few sales today, but gave us a category name when we’re talking to laser neophytes – which will be an increasing percentage of our customer base."

My translation: "Lets take advantage of these stupid consumers and call this thing a 3-D machine. By the time they figure out its just another cheap laser cutter, it will be too late to return it."

[Doug Griffith]

If your position is that "...the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.", then I think you would be incorrect. You get what you agree to. Like any purchase, no? I pointed out above that you will agree to terms/warranty before the unit is shipped. After that, you will have either a 6 or 12 month warranty. Asking for a refund before the unit ships is not the only way to "not own a possible brick".

To think that people actually read through terms and conditions is idealistic much less thoroughly understanding the legal jargon they are reading. To expect them to do it once they get an email requesting their shipping address for something they've waited many months for makes digging through them even less likely. What I just stated is exacerbated by who their target market is. Soccer moms are not going to read through legal mumbo jumbo. They just aren't.

That said, nowhere in the existing terms does it state anything about a 6 to 12 month warranty.

The warranty information does not exist.

[Bert Kemp]

My translation: "Lets take advantage of these stupid consumers and call this thing a 3-D machine. By the time they figure out its just another cheap laser cutter, it will be too late to return it."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said plus what Doug said, there is no warranty now and nobody will read the legal mumbo jumbo. I waited 5 years for this heres my address send it now, then they get it and it will be yikes what have I done :D

[Doug Griffith]

I'm a little confused as to why you're lamenting the apparent lack of Terms and Conditions/Warranty
Shifty legal jargon and deceptive advertising is the reason. Why, if they conjured up this huge amount of money, haven't they fixed their website and added their warranty page? Really? The page goes to a 404 error. Instead they choose to hold off until the last minute when they are requesting shipping addresses. My guess is they are hedging their bets that few will actually read the terms and cancel their order after waiting such a long time. That, and that arenas like this forum won't have time to rip it apart. But that's just me.


The short version is that there’s a 6 month warranty on basic and a 12 month warranty on Pro.
Amazing you found this because it sure isn't in the non-existent warranty page that the "Terms of Conditions for Online Offer to Purchase" directly refers to. You know, what's considered the legal document.

Really??? What company would state the below? WELL THANK YOU. Can't they afford a lawyer? A small piece of the 28 million might get them Saul Goodman.
"One of our most common requests from customers is that they would like us to add a standard warranty. OK! We’re going to do it. While this isn’t the full legal warranty (coming soon, from our friendly neighborhood lawyer), this is the basics of what we plan to cover with it:"


Also, hidden on the TECH SPECS page:
Why hidden?

I really don't have anything against Glowforge because I appreciate ambitious start-ups. They should just make their real terms of sale, warranty, and return policy available and knock off the deceptive "3D printer" marketing. Oh, and quit pushing it as a kitchen appliance when we all know how dangerous lasers are both in noxious fumes and fire hazards.

[Doug Griffith]

You said this:

"So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get."

The "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before it starts shipping" is a conclusion you reached based on not being able to read the warranty and return policy because said policies are not available. It's an erroneous conclusion. Your argument is a logical fallacy, assuming that since a policy isn't available it must be the policy you believe. So you're wrong. Or more appropriately, you're not right, because you can't make that statement as true since you countered it in your own post by stating that those policies are not available to evaluate. You're wrong and you proved it yourself.

You're killing me Jason.

How can I come to an erroneous conclusion when it is in black and white on their website:

"If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies. Instead, Glowforge’s refund policy and limited warranties will apply."

Maybe I should have inserted "assured" between "only" and "way".

If you're referring to "you get what you get"? Well, it is what it is.

[Jason Hilton]

It's been clearly stated, by you in fact, that the warranty and return policy won't be available until closer to the shipment date. How do you not understand that, given YOU stated clearly the warranty and terms of service aren't yet available, when you state "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get." you're making an erroneous statement and an unsupported conclusion? It's boggles my mind...



You're killing me Jason.

How can I come to an erroneous conclusion when it is in black and white on their website:

"If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies. Instead, Glowforge’s refund policy and limited warranties will apply."

Maybe I should have inserted "assured" between "only" and "way".

If you're referring to "you get what you get"? Well, it is what it is.

[Bert Kemp]

It boggles my mind that you actually just wrote that. :eek:

We have an unlimited, no questions asked refund policy up until we collect your address for shipment. Once it's shipped, our warranty applies. We don't accept returns once the device has been delivered.

So this means once they get your shipping address your stuck with it weather it works or not you have it.


It's been clearly stated, by you in fact, that the warranty and return policy won't be available until closer to the shipment date. How do you not understand that, given YOU stated clearly the warranty and terms of service aren't yet available, when you state "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get." you're making an erroneous statement and an unsupported conclusion? It's boggles my mind...

[Doug Griffith]

It's been clearly stated, by you in fact, that the warranty and return policy won't be available until closer to the shipment date. How do you not understand that, given YOU stated clearly the warranty and terms of service aren't yet available, when you state "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get." you're making an erroneous statement and an unsupported conclusion? It's boggles my mind...

I don't quite think you get my statement "you get what you get". It means you get the Glowforge and whatever terms of sale, warranty, and return policy that comes with it. All of which are unknowns at this point. As I said before, I probably should have inserted "assured" between "only" and "way". Then there wouldn't be all these erroneous conlusions floating around. Plus I said "possible" which is not a matter of fact.

[John Blazy]

I think it will be interesting to see what this Glowforge does to the entire low cost laser industry. Anyone selling low cost CO2 lasers wants them to be a household word, because once the general public gets a taste of the abilities of what a laser can do, they will want more, better, and bigger machines.

Seems like Glowforge will either go through serious growing pains (imagine their tech support fielding questions from the dumbest of the dumb about why it didn't engrave in the same colors of the photo they used), and survive to sell for several years after paid warranties, or they will go under due to tech support problems, or whatever we all on this forum speculate. Bottom line is that more people will be AWARE of laser cutting / engraving.

Lots of folks on this forum have lasers in their garages, and I should have had one fifteen years ago - so many uses.

My prediction is that the mainstream laser companies will benefit from any outcome of Glowforge - successful or not - in the long run.

For example, one of the major plastics suppliers did a mass marketing campaign of dichroic (color-changing)laminated acrylic. Made the stuff common knowledge. Got a lot of architects and designers hooked on it. Then they discontinued the product due to technical issues and raw material cost increases. Those architects, designers and public artists scrambled to find an alternative.

[Dave Sheldrake]

or they will go under due to tech support problems,

John is bang on the money!!

A friend who sells lasers said to me the other day his cheapest machine accounts for 80% of tech support calls.

So 20mil's worth of GF's have been "sold", lets imagine that they are all the $4,000 model, that's 5,000 machines.

If users only need ONE support call a year thats 14 calls a DAY 7 days a week/365 days a year, that's a LOT of support staff (who know what they are on about) being required.

Now figure in Mary the soccer mom firing up her millions maker in the kitchen (along with her friends doing the same) and the whole support system is going to go straight to hell

To me the single biggest mistake GF made was not having at least one respected expert from the industry onside. That single mistake is going to cost them.....

[Lee DeRaud]

If users only need ONE support call a year thats 14 calls a DAY 7 days a week/365 days a year, that's a LOT of support staff (who know what they are on about) being required.Depends on what you mean by "a LOT": maybe 4-5 full-time guys answering phones and reading scripts in Bangalore, (possibly) backed up by one guy in Seattle who can actually answer questions.

Hey, if it's good enough for Microsoft...

[Joel Ifill]

I see a lot of concern here of the modern crowd funding phenomena. I ran two successful kickstarter campaigns which actually paid for my Speedy 100. Yes, it's basically a wide open thing if they acted really incompetently with your money or just couldn't deliver there's not too much legal recourse unless you can prove they were using it irresponsibly. If they promised a 1KW laser and turns out they can't manufacture one for 4K, there's not much you can do. As far as tech support, they seem to be a relatively smart group of people and I hope that they factored in warranty and tech support. Those numbers aren't hard to run for a new project and nowadays forums (like this) become useful fonts for information that doesn't require a tech support call.

I think the glowforge has some interesting ideas and things like the stereoscopic focusing and auto positioning are proof that the big guys were getting lazy in the R&D department. Now how well those features work at this price point only time will tell. But there was certainly no excuse for the big guys to not implement these features on lasers that cost 2-4x the cost, or come out and say very clearly why they tried it and it's not for them. Reminds me of how Nest came in and basically gave Honeywell and the established multi-billion dollar companies a lesson on how to design a thermostat. My biggest concern is that people will be shocked by how slow a 40W chinese glass tube laser will raster especially as the head carries the tube. Also Tube life and replacements.

In the end the machines are not for most of us here, it's like machinists complaining about desktop mills and little hobbyist CNC machines. Yeah that don't have the features and robust build of professional machines but they are decidedly not for that purpose. The only fear is that the machine will work so poorly that it will live a 28 million dollar bitter taste in the consumers mouth. My hope is that some of the features found in the glowforge will trickle up into the professional machine market as real-time stereoscopic focus is quite useful among others.

[Rich Harman]

My biggest concern is that people will be shocked by how slow a 40W chinese glass tube laser will raster especially as the head carries the tube.

Can you explain further? The tube is far too large to be carried on the head.

[Andrew Holloway]

Can you explain further? The tube is far too large to be carried on the head.
I think he means the gantry carries the tube.

[Rich Harman]

I think he means the gantry carries the tube.

Perhaps, but that would have no affect on rastering speed.

[Bill George]

The really big issue is 99% of the folks on here use a laser and know what it can do and not do.

The GlowForge is mass marketed to people who think its cool to have not only just a laser but 3D one at that. They know nothing about lasers and only believe what they read on the GF website and marketing. When they do finally get one they discover that some of the features work, some don't and they really don't understand. The purchaser who is planning on making money is soon disappointed.
The phone calls and emails start, the FAQ gets expanded the Help Forum is crowded with users that have the same complaint and so on. I don't see a happy ending. I do see a lot GF machines headed to Craigslist.

[Jay Selway]

I have a pretty big problem with Glowforge. They've been marketing the laser as a 'home accessory.' See the video where the family has the laser set up in the kitchen with no visible exhaust and children using it. I think we're going to hear about somebody burning down their house, or poisoning themselves by not properly exhausting.

I keep getting people asking me if it's legit and my standard response is that I would never buy one.

[John Stevenson]

The announcement notes that there are no public beta units (i.e., schools, makerspaces) in the field. There are private beta testers, which have signed NDAs.

Not Delivered Anytime ?

[Bert Kemp]

Its beginning to look that way:mad:





Not Delivered Anytime ?

[Jed Lawrie]

I believe this thread was supposed to be about the shipping times but it got a little side tracked. I have been watching the whole GF thing closely. It is very interesting to me. Here is a post from GF to a user question on facebook about shipping dates. This was posted on March 19, 2016.:

"Thanks so much for asking Matt. Sorry that wasn't totally clear up front.

The first Glowforge beta units are preparing for shipment now. Based on beta feedback, we'll see if we can ramp production immediately, or whether we need to fix any issues before increasing production.

The next step will be to ship all of our pre-orders. All things being equal, we'll ship based on the order date. Our plan is to have all the units that were ordered before 10/24/15 shipped in the first half of 2016.

If you placed an order after 10/24/15, we are planning to ship in later this year, after our crowdfund units have been shipped. Once we hit full production, we can start shipping units very quickly.

When your unit is almost ready to ship, we will email you to get your shipping address. Once you provide us with the address, we'll ship your Glowforge shortly, so that's how you'll know when it's ready.

Unfortunately we don't have more specific information at this point, since shipping dates depend on whether our early units meet our quality tests and get positive user feedback. We're going to ship as fast as we can, while making sure that the product is terrific!"

[Doug Griffith]

I believe this thread was supposed to be about the shipping times but it got a little side tracked. I have been watching the whole GF thing closely. It is very interesting to me. Here is a post from GF to a user question on facebook about shipping dates. This was posted on March 19, 2016.:

"Thanks so much for asking Matt. Sorry that wasn't totally clear up front.

The first Glowforge beta units are preparing for shipment now. Based on beta feedback, we'll see if we can ramp production immediately, or whether we need to fix any issues before increasing production.

The next step will be to ship all of our pre-orders. All things being equal, we'll ship based on the order date. Our plan is to have all the units that were ordered before 10/24/15 shipped in the first half of 2016.

If you placed an order after 10/24/15, we are planning to ship in later this year, after our crowdfund units have been shipped. Once we hit full production, we can start shipping units very quickly.

When your unit is almost ready to ship, we will email you to get your shipping address. Once you provide us with the address, we'll ship your Glowforge shortly, so that's how you'll know when it's ready.

Unfortunately we don't have more specific information at this point, since shipping dates depend on whether our early units meet our quality tests and get positive user feedback. We're going to ship as fast as we can, while making sure that the product is terrific!"


I still see a lot of preparing, planning, next steps, we'll see, going to, and conditionals. Pretty much a pacifiying message.

[Art Mann]

There is a similar startup company that is going to market a car that gets 85mpg and only costs $6800. Google "Elio" and read all about it. Thousands and thousands of potential customers have paid $600 each (IIRC) for the privilege of being among the first buyers. Some have been waiting for many years now. Their website and marketing efforts have improved over the years but the delivery status appears to be the same as it was when the product was announced.

[Lee DeRaud]

There is a similar startup company that is going to market a car that gets 85mpg and only costs $6800. Google "Elio" and read all about it. Thousands and thousands of potential customers have paid $600 each (IIRC) for the privilege of being among the first buyers. Some have been waiting for many years now. Their website and marketing efforts have improved over the years but the delivery status appears to be the same as it was when the product was announced.I'm old enough to remember the first time fusion power was described as "about 25 years away". Still is, near as I can tell. :p

(Note that I'm not counting solar power, which I suspect would be a lot less popular if it were known by its technical description: "thermonuclear". :cool:)

[Kev Williams]

While I've been relatively neutral about Glowforge, THIS is the scariest thing I've read so far:


...shipping dates depend on whether our early units meet our quality tests and get positive user feedback.

Ummm... Just me, but if I was building something to sell, I'd probably do a little quality testing before I asked someone to buy the thing...

--that this much time has passed, AND the 'beta units' haven't even been produced or at least delivered yet, AND, apparently, future production appears dependent on whether the beta units survive a 90 day warrantee (<conjecture), THEN all I can say is, methinks GF may have bitten off more than they can chew...

[Rich Harman]

(Note that I'm not counting solar power, which I suspect would be a lot less popular if it were known by its technical description: "thermonuclear". :cool:)

Fossil fuels, like solar panels, also got their energy from the Sun. ;-)

[Bert Kemp]

All I can say is my Chinese 3D printer:D works just fine and it was delivered on time. with a warranty that I saw before I bought it.:eek:

[Lee DeRaud]

Fossil fuels, like solar panels, also got their energy from the Sun. ;-)Yeah, and you see how well that worked out for the dinosaurs...

[Art Mann]

I like it when these threads take on a humorous note.

[Dan Hintz]

(Note that I'm not counting solar power, which I suspect would be a lot less popular if it were known by its technical description: "thermonuclear". :cool:)

Yeah, but at least with solar, the reactor is in someone else's backyard ;)

[Lee DeRaud]

Yeah, but at least with solar, the reactor is in someone else's backyard ;)There's a petition to decommission it circulating on Mercury, citing the complete absence of environmental impact studies. :cool:

[chase standifer]

My translation: "Lets take advantage of these stupid consumers and call this thing a 3-D machine. By the time they figure out its just another cheap laser cutter, it will be too late to return it."

Normally I find this place to be completely respectful but I guess since I am one "these stupid customers" I might be wrong. Some of us did indeed read everything before placing and order and did so completely aware of the risk we are taking in the product. The founder of Glowforge has already successfully delivered to extremely successful crowdfunding campaigns and is by no means new to risks involved. All pre-orders are on schedule to ship in June, even if December was supposed to be the original ship date for production units a 6 months delay is not uncommon in crowdfunding and more than worth the wait to receive a quality product.

Some of us want simple, user friendly machine that I don't have constantly fiddle with for occasional engraving or light cutting. The ironic thing I find about many of the people talking about the Glowforge is that the people who can't believe we would buy something unseen are the same ones who are in a hurry to assure us that it will fail completely and set our houses on fire while simultaneously choking us on poisonous fumes. Well you have just a little proof that it will fail as I have proof that it will succeed.

I am in a laser cutting group on Facebook and again the same people talking about who terrible the Glowforge will be are the same ones who post for help the next day for their cheap chinese with no instructions laser that needs immediate modification and/or repair along with software tweaking.

All I am saying perhaps we should withhold judgment for the product until there is some actual proof, good or bad, about the unit. None of us know how this will work out.

Perhaps we should also avoid talking down to those of us who chose to support this product and to support an American entrepreneur (something that should always be encouraged). It was our risk to take and for many of us it was an informed risk who aren't just "stupid customers".

[Dan Hintz]

The founder of Glowforge has already successfully delivered to extremely successful crowdfunding campaigns and is by no means new to risks involved.

He's also failed to deliver on other projects in spectacular, epic proportions, taking millions of dollars in investor money and making it go <poof> into thin air. Look for his pawprints in the 3D printer world...

Just making sure we show BOTH sides, particularly the one many choose to ignore (or are in the dark about)...

[Matt McCoy]

He's also failed to deliver on other projects in spectacular, epic proportions, taking millions of dollars in investor money and making it go <poof> into thin air. Look for his pawprints in the 3D printer world...

This is the first I have heard of this Dan. Would you pass along the other projects? Thanks.

[chase standifer]

What are some examples? I feel like I did decent research into him and even looking for negative stories I don't seem to come up with anything.

[chase standifer]

What are some examples? I feel like I did decent research into him and even looking for negative stories I don't seem to come up with anything.


He's also failed to deliver on other projects in spectacular, epic proportions, taking millions of dollars in investor money and making it go <poof> into thin air. Look for his pawprints in the 3D printer world...

Just making sure we show BOTH sides, particularly the one many choose to ignore (or are in the dark about)...

[Art Mann]

I'm sorry you were offended but I would have been more sorry if I let this guy get away with erroneously advertising the nature and capabilities of his (hypothetical) machine and then excusing himself by saying that people called it by the wrong name. I truly believe I accurately interpreted his words according to the reality of the situation. Even if he is successful and eventually delivers a usable product.


Normally I find this place to be completely respectful but I guess since I am one "these stupid customers" I might be wrong. Some of us did indeed read everything before placing and order and did so completely aware of the risk we are taking in the product. The founder of Glowforge has already successfully delivered to extremely successful crowdfunding campaigns and is by no means new to risks involved. All pre-orders are on schedule to ship in June, even if December was supposed to be the original ship date for production units a 6 months delay is not uncommon in crowdfunding and more than worth the wait to receive a quality product.

Some of us want simple, user friendly machine that I don't have constantly fiddle with for occasional engraving or light cutting. The ironic thing I find about many of the people talking about the Glowforge is that the people who can't believe we would buy something unseen are the same ones who are in a hurry to assure us that it will fail completely and set our houses on fire while simultaneously choking us on poisonous fumes. Well you have just a little proof that it will fail as I have proof that it will succeed.

I am in a laser cutting group on Facebook and again the same people talking about who terrible the Glowforge will be are the same ones who post for help the next day for their cheap chinese with no instructions laser that needs immediate modification and/or repair along with software tweaking.

All I am saying perhaps we should withhold judgment for the product until there is some actual proof, good or bad, about the unit. None of us know how this will work out.

Perhaps we should also avoid talking down to those of us who chose to support this product and to support an American entrepreneur (something that should always be encouraged). It was our risk to take and for many of us it was an informed risk who aren't just "stupid customers".

[Jerome Stanek]

Boy I didn't mean to stir up so much controversy. All I wanted was when will the units ship.

[Jed Lawrie]

He's also failed to deliver on other projects in spectacular, epic proportions, taking millions of dollars in investor money and making it go <poof> into thin air. Look for his pawprints in the 3D printer world...

Just making sure we show BOTH sides, particularly the one many choose to ignore (or are in the dark about)...

Plot twist...

[Bert Kemp]

Interesting read gives a little incite to as to what kind of person he is.
wwwdotdanshapirodotcom/blog

[Lee DeRaud]

Boy I didn't mean to stir up so much controversy. All I wanted was when will the units ship.Don't take it personally: the controversy started months before this thread did. :eek:

[Matt McCoy]

...gives a little incite...

Incite seems to be the right word.

[Bert Kemp]

Ok Matt maybe it is the right word :D but I did spell it wrong for what I meant as you probably guessed insight would be what I meant :eek:



Incite seems to be the right word.

[Matt McCoy]

Ok Matt maybe it is the right word :D but I did spell it wrong for what I meant as you probably guessed insight would be what I meant :eek:

Always enjoy your posts, Bert. ;)

[Matt McCoy]

He's also failed to deliver on other projects in spectacular, epic proportions, taking millions of dollars in investor money and making it go <poof> into thin air. Look for his pawprints in the 3D printer world...

Just making sure we show BOTH sides, particularly the one many choose to ignore (or are in the dark about)...

I'm ready for those links to the other projects, when you have a chance.

[Nigel P. Jones]

For those of you still interested in the Glowforge release timeline, it looks like they finally delivered a beta unit this week (http://community.glowforge.com/t/beta-so-this-happened/1844). During their pre-order campaign in September they said they were going to send these in December, so that makes this about four months late. Last I heard they are still claiming that they will deliver all ~10,000 pre-orders before the end of June. That seems very doubtful at this point.

[Bill George]

Beta meaning a unit to test. If they ship any at all this year my guess it will be for Christmas. Oh and they need to have 10,000 glass 40 watt CO2 tubes ready to go on the same time frame.

[chase standifer]

I follow the Glowforge forums pretty closely. They delivered the first beta units back in December, this is not the first one out there. They have a pretty strict NDA and have not published information about who received beta units.

[Nigel P. Jones]

They delivered the first beta units back in December, this is not the first one out there.

That's not what the CEO told a news outlet in February (http://www.geekwire.com/2016/raising-28m-record-crowdfunding-campaign-glowforge-delays-initial-shipments/):


The original plan was to start shipping the “first units” in December.

Glowforge CEO Dan Shapiro confirmed with GeekWire on Thursday that those shipments have been delayed...

As far as the initial shipments scheduled for December that have yet to be delivered, Shapiro said “I wish we were further along with that.”

[chase standifer]

I will try to look back in the forums on there and find the info. But the first beta units were hand delivered to users in Seattle for easy monitoring and assistance by the developers. The pictures that came out yesterday is the first public beta where the user is authorized to discuss the machine.

[Matt McCoy]

I will try to look back in the forums on there and find the info. But the first beta units were hand delivered to users in Seattle for easy monitoring and assistance by the developers. The pictures that came out yesterday is the first public beta where the user is authorized to discuss the machine.

I didn't read all the posts, but it looks like a beta unit was dropped off for the day to an investor in Colorado.

http://community.glowforge.com/t/glowforge-spotted-in-the-wild/1792

[Bert Kemp]

Shapiro warned that future delays are possible.While we’re on schedule for June, if something unexpected comes up and we have to decide between shipping a mediocre product and taking a delay, we’ll take the delay so we know
Unexpected seems to be the rule not the exception :rolleyes:

[chase standifer]

I can't seem to find a comment I remember reading from Dan about how some local units had been hand delivered a couple of months ago. Seems like it may be been some speculation from another poster about how some users had "beta" show up under their avatar. Most likely it was my memory fulfilling my own confirmation bias. I'm still optimistic that orders will be shipped by June. I supported the project understanding the risk of both and extended timeline and possible failure to deliver. I was able to afford that risk, however I don't understand some of the people who talk about selling their cars to be able to pre-order or are already setting of businesses based off of this tool, poor life planning IMO.

[Jason Hilton]

I've been thinking about similar circumstances to the Glowforge in the product world and the best example I have come up with is Red Camera. Red published incredible claims about their Red One camera and the response had a similar dichotomy: People either were floored and believed they could deliver (and pre-ordered) or they were like most of the folks on this forum and aggressively shared their doubts and misgiving with reasons both real and invented. Red struggles to this day to hit their shipping goals (usually because they can't manufacture fast enough to meet demand), but their products are almost universally considered to be the best cameras available and shoot tens of thousands of projects every year (including a large percentage of the big blockbuster films I'm sure you've all seen). Red has other manufactures struggling to keep up with their innovations, even 10 years after their first camera was introduced. They have an active user and staff community that provides direct access to the people using their cameras, and they've been able to create features and functionality directly with participation from the community, often significantly improving their final product.

I compare Glowforge to Red because, thus far, they've followed much the same pattern. They're responsive to questions and feature requests, they're carefully beta testing their hardware AND software, and they've got a pre-order significantly higher than they'd anticipated. If they deliver the usability they've been showing in screenshots they'll be significantly farther along than other manufacturers in terms of ease of use and ease of onboarding. If they have a good roadmap of products they'll almost certainly move into larger, faster laser hardware in the future. The founder and the team have a good past track record of success in different businesses (just like the founder of Red, who made his fortune founding Oakley) and a passion for the new business they're in. Glowforge has a passionate and active community. And based on their openness and communication with their customer-base, and their commitment to quality over delivery dates (a key metric for product success) they've got a great chance of following Red's model to continuation and becoming a big player in the laser market.

Could they fail? Sure, but the odds are very much in their favor to succeed, and if they do, like Red did with cameras, they will shake up the market to the point where the current big players will be struggling to keep up.

[Gary Hair]

I've been thinking about similar circumstances to the Glowforge in the product world and the best example I have come up with is Red Camera. Red published incredible claims about their Red One camera and the response had a similar dichotomy: People either were floored and believed they could deliver (and pre-ordered) or they were like most of the folks on this forum and aggressively shared their doubts and misgiving with reasons both real and invented. Red struggles to this day to hit their shipping goals (usually because they can't manufacture fast enough to meet demand), but their products are almost universally considered to be the best cameras available and shoot tens of thousands of projects every year (including a large percentage of the big blockbuster films I'm sure you've all seen). Red has other manufactures struggling to keep up with their innovations, even 10 years after their first camera was introduced. They have an active user and staff community that provides direct access to the people using their cameras, and they've been able to create features and functionality directly with participation from the community, often significantly improving their final product.

I compare Glowforge to Red because, thus far, they've followed much the same pattern. They're responsive to questions and feature requests, they're carefully beta testing their hardware AND software, and they've got a pre-order significantly higher than they'd anticipated. If they deliver the usability they've been showing in screenshots they'll be significantly farther along than other manufacturers in terms of ease of use and ease of onboarding. If they have a good roadmap of products they'll almost certainly move into larger, faster laser hardware in the future. The founder and the team have a good past track record of success in different businesses (just like the founder of Red, who made his fortune founding Oakley) and a passion for the new business they're in. Glowforge has a passionate and active community. And based on their openness and communication with their customer-base, and their commitment to quality over delivery dates (a key metric for product success) they've got a great chance of following Red's model to continuation and becoming a big player in the laser market.

Could they fail? Sure, but the odds are very much in their favor to succeed, and if they do, like Red did with cameras, they will shake up the market to the point where the current big players will be struggling to keep up.

Seriously? You are going to compare a $77K (yes, that seventy seven thousand) camera that changed the high-end camera world by leaps and bounds, to a (probably) over-priced, (probably) over-hyped, consumer product that sells for less than $2K. Sorry, they are not even remotely analogous.

[Matt McCoy]

Seriously? You are going to compare a $77K (yes, that seventy seven thousand) camera that changed the high-end camera world by leaps and bounds, to a (probably) over-priced, (probably) over-hyped, consumer product that sells for less than $2K. Sorry, they are not even remotely analogous.

I don't see where Jason used price points in his comparison, Gary. He makes his case in the second paragraph.

[Art Mann]

For every company that is successful with a new product financed by crowd funding, there must be at least a hundred companies that fail. It is no use cherry picking one example company in an attempt to prove that Glowforge will be successful. After all, Red produced a product that nobody else had. Glowforge is just one out of dozens of companies that use Chinese components that make a cheap 2-D laser cutter/engraver. Calling their machine 3-D just makes them look either stupid or deceitful.

[Jason Hilton]

Seriously? You are going to compare a $77K (yes, that seventy seven thousand) camera that changed the high-end camera world by leaps and bounds, to a (probably) over-priced, (probably) over-hyped, consumer product that sells for less than $2K. Sorry, they are not even remotely analogous.

Yes, that's exactly what I did, and thank you for reinforcing my argument. Price point wasn't mentioned and isn't relevant. However, there is a pricing model comparison to be made. Having purchased a Red One for a company I worked for, the Red One price point was around 35k with accessories pre-ordered, and around 40-45k after release. The current range of Red cameras today run the gamut from a bare bones Raven (a new camera) being introduced at 5k to The Weapon range that can go upwards 120k fully kitted out. The comparison here isn't the prices themselves, but the pricing model: Namely that Red, like Glowforge, introduced their cameras at promotional pre-order pricing and increased the pricing after a specified time. Red continues to use this model to this day, most recently pricing their newest entry level Raven camera at an introductory price which is set to increase right after NAB 2016.

[Jason Hilton]

For every company that is successful with a new product financed by crowd funding, there must be at least a hundred companies that fail. It is no use cherry picking one example company in an attempt to prove that Glowforge will be successful. After all, Red produced a product that nobody else had. Glowforge is just one out of dozens of companies that use Chinese components that make a cheap 2-D laser cutter/engraver. Calling their machine 3-D just makes them look either stupid or deceitful.

I didn't cherry pick at all. Red happens to be a company and product I have experience with. Red accepted pre-orders before crowdfunding was a thing, and Glowforge accepted discounted pre-orders, they didn't crowd-fund. GF had capital investments before launch and took direct pre-orders. Legally speaking it's the same as pre-ordering an iPad. There are terms and they owe you a product. Crowd funding is a lot more fuzzy.

[Rich Harman]

I've been thinking about similar circumstances to the Glowforge in the product world and the best example I have come up with is Red Camera... but their products are almost universally considered to be the best cameras available


I think it's a thin comparison. The Glowforge laser is aimed at people that don't know anything about lasers, nothing about it is high end, except for the server side software - which is what sets it apart from other lasers. It is built cheaply, of cheap components. Glowforge is targeting people that don't even know that a laser can make 3D items, hence their ridiculous decision to call it a "3D laser printer". People will not universally be claiming that the Glowforge is the best laser available.

Red is not going to poison you or burn down your house. Marketing to people that know nothing about lasers, talking up how safe it is (like a DVD player), showing it used in a kitchen with no ducting what-so-ever etc., These are things that are very different than Red.

[Jason Hilton]

I think it's a thin comparison. The Glowforge laser is aimed at people that don't know anything about lasers, nothing about it is high end, except for the server side software - which is what sets it apart from other lasers. It is built cheaply, of cheap components. Glowforge is targeting people that don't even know that a laser can make 3D items, hence their ridiculous decision to call it a "3D laser printer". People will not universally be claiming that the Glowforge is the best laser available.

Red is not going to poison you or burn down your house. Marketing to people that know nothing about lasers, talking up how safe it is (like a DVD player), showing it used in a kitchen with no ducting what-so-ever etc., These are things that are very different than Red.

Of course there are material differences in the products and their target market. You can't make a 1:1 comparison and can nitpick all day about how the two companies are different, and I don't dispute that. This comparison isn't about the products themselves, but the process, release strategy, pricing strategy, marketing strategy, product roadmap, and the business model. And in all of those categories Glowforge is following a similar path to Red. I don't conclude unequivocally that because Glowforge is on a similar path that it means they'll succeed, only that based on the currently available data their chances are good because we've seen this with Red before.

[Lee DeRaud]

From where I'm sitting, the "Glowforge = Red" discussion sounds vaguely like trying to compare Faraday to Tesla:
it may work out that way in the long run, but the present reality is a bit less promising.

[Jason Hilton]

From where I'm sitting, the "Glowforge = Red" discussion sounds vaguely like trying to compare Faraday to Tesla:
it may work out that way in the long run, but the present reality is a bit less promising.

...Which is exactly what people said about Red when they were starting out.

[Art Mann]

The point is Red started out trying to do something that nobody else had done. Glowforge is trying to market something that has already been done by dozens of companies. Their proposed pattern library and standardized materials reminds me of a child's paint by number set. The difference is that once you buy a paint by numbers set, you can use the materials as intended without any further contact with the supplier. With the Glowforge machine, you are utterly dependent on a company that has no history and advertises their product to be something that it is not. You also must maintain a robust internet connection for the thing to be functional. Some people call that innovative. I call it crippled.

[Bert Kemp]

I think Jason is just saying that because the 2 companies have used similar selling strategies and advertising methods that is why Glowforge will be successful. I don't doubt that glowforge will make a lot of money in the beginning if they really deliver the product. But in the end after it hits the market and people see this can't really do what it claims and it really is just a cheap POJ and people start writing the reviews the fad will quickly fade. Its a toy that will sell and people will use it till it breaks then junk it.

[Jason Hilton]

The point is Red started out trying to do something that nobody else had done. Glowforge is trying to market something that has already been done by dozens of companies. Their proposed pattern library and standardized materials reminds me of a child's paint by number set. The difference is that once you buy a paint by numbers set, you can use the materials as intended without any further contact with the supplier. With the Glowforge machine, you are utterly dependent on a company that has no history and advertises their product to be something that it is not. You also must maintain a robust internet connection for the thing to be functional. Some people call that innovative. I call it crippled.

Glowforge's differentiators go much further than that, and I would argue they ARE doing something that the laser market hasn't done before. In lasers today you have two choices: Big manufacturer machines for tons of money, or a cheap import for a lot less money and a lot more frustration and tinkering (a point of pride for some, I know). Neither option provides easy to use software options, you literally can't get any, the learning curve in current laser software is unnecessarily steep. Understand, Glowforge chose a consumer market entry first, so professional users aren't their current target. Paint by numbers is appealing to casual users, that's not a detriment to their product, it's a powerful feature. Glowforge is innovating on the price and usability front far beyond what other manufacturers are doing.

The difficulty you're all having is that you're unable to think like anything other than a professional laser business owner, and, at least at the moment, Glowforge isn't (and isn't claiming to) serve your market.

[Jason Hilton]

I think Jason is just saying that because the 2 companies have used similar selling strategies and advertising methods that is why Glowforge will be successful. I don't doubt that glowforge will make a lot of money in the beginning if they really deliver the product. But in the end after it hits the market and people see this can't really do what it claims and it really is just a cheap POJ and people start writing the reviews the fad will quickly fade. Its a toy that will sell and people will use it till it breaks then junk it.

That's assuming the product is a POJ, which something a lot of people said about Red as well before it completely changed the camera market.

[Nigel P. Jones]

"Did we say we would ship by June? We meant to say December. Yeah, December."

http://www.geekwire.com/2016/glowforge-delays-shipments-28m-crowdfunding-campaign-ceo-says/


Glowforge is delaying initial shipments of its 3D laser printer — again.

The Seattle startup, which set a crowdfunding record after raising nearly $28 million from thousands of backers who pre-ordered the printer this past October, sent a lengthly email to customers today notifying them that shipments are being pushed back to December 2016.

[Jason Hilton]

"Did we say we would ship by June? We meant to say December. Yeah, December."

http://www.geekwire.com/2016/glowforge-delays-shipments-28m-crowdfunding-campaign-ceo-says/

Total bummer for sure. And interestingly exactly on schedule considering my comparison with Red: Their first camera shipped about 6 months late.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

From the article above...


The Glowforge device itself is different from most other 3D printers.

Uh, yeah, because it's not a 3D printer, lol.

[Art Mann]

I think Jason is just saying that because the 2 companies have used similar selling strategies and advertising methods that is why Glowforge will be successful. I don't doubt that glowforge will make a lot of money in the beginning if they really deliver the product. But in the end after it hits the market and people see this can't really do what it claims and it really is just a cheap POJ and people start writing the reviews the fad will quickly fade. Its a toy that will sell and people will use it till it breaks then junk it.

There is another company that uses crowd funding and the Glowforge marketing strategy. It is called Elio Automotive. They are planning to build a car for under $7000 that gets 85 mpg. The problem is they have been planning to do that for about 4 years. Every year they put out another notice that the vehicle will start production in the fall. They have taken a lot of money from a lot of people. I think the chances of any of these people ever getting a vehicle are approximately zero.

[Rich Harman]

This comparison isn't about the products themselves, but the process, release strategy, pricing strategy, marketing strategy, product roadmap, and the business model. And in all of those categories Glowforge is following a similar path to Red.

I don't see what is special or unique about that process. You've called out two of what must be thousands of products that have tried a similar strategy. I don't think that the doubters are stating that the process is the problem with Glowforge, it's the claims they are making of the product. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to hold that up as some evidence why they will succeed. Besides, most agree that Glowforge will succeed at making money.

[Bert Kemp]

Oh now they aren't going to ship until Dec 2016 whats that a year after you sent money to them.And I'll bet come December there will be other unforeseen circumstances that they will again delay shipment if they ever ship at all. My prediction is that sometime after Dec 2016 the company will concede they can't make the machine they promised and file for Bankruptcy and all investor money will be gone for ever:eek:

[Gary Hair]

Besides, most agree that Glowforge will succeed at making money.

P.T. Barnum said it best, and Glowforge has found a large batch of them...

[Bert Kemp]

Gary PT Barnum never said it , but your right Glowforge has found a large batch :D

[Mark Sipes]

Oh now they aren't going to ship until Dec 2016 whats that a year after you sent money to them.And I'll bet come December there will be other unforeseen circumstances that they will again delay shipment if they ever ship at all. My prediction is that sometime after Dec 2016 the company will concede they can't make the machine they promised and file for Bankruptcy and all investor money will be gone for ever:eek:




Money gone forever... no way.. Someone has new Mercedes and 1+ M furnished house they did not have 2 years ago.




I have to revise my post from 2 minutes ago! 4 Mercedes and 4 Ferrari's and a 10 car garage on the 33 acres plot with the mansion with stables


Glowforge $27,907,995 sold in 30 days
The biggest 30-day crowdfunding campaign in history














,

[Gary Hair]

Gary PT Barnum never said it , but your right Glowforge has found a large batch :D

Next thing you'll tell me is that Santa Claus isn't real...

[Bert Kemp]

Oh No! Santa's Real he flys to my house in December every year has done so ever since I was a tiny little bitty baby


Next thing you'll tell me is that Santa Claus isn't real...

[Gary Hair]

Oh No! Santa's Real he flys to my house in December every year has done so ever since I was a tiny little bitty baby

Maybe this year, if you're good, he'll deliver you a Glowforge!

[Bert Kemp]

Oh Sorry Mark I forgot about that:D your right the money got spent on a FEW INCIDENTALS :rolleyes:


Money gone forever... no way.. Someone has new Mercedes and 1+ M furnished house they did not have 2 years ago.




I have to revise my post from 2 minutes ago! 4 Mercedes and 4 Ferrari's and a 10 car garage on the 33 acres plot with the mansion with stables


Glowforge $27,907,995 sold in 30 days
The biggest 30-day crowdfunding campaign in history














,

[chase standifer]

I love all the claims that Glowforge is using cheap components or off the shelf chinese components. So with the same breath you tell me I am a fool for taking a risk on a product without knowing how good it will be while simultaneously telling me it is made with cheap components. Something that you have just as little and idea about as I do that it will be quality product. They are in fact using multiple custom components, one of which is the reason for the delay. The truth is that none of know if the Glowforge will be successful or not, some of us just chose to take a chance on what I hope will be a great machine allowing me to do some laser cutting without the headache of troubleshooting one from China.

Tesla is another example of a company that took preorders for a new and unproven product and was extremely late in delivering but when they did it was a fantastic product. Not a direct comparison but it is an example of why we should be willing to support American entrepreneurs and take some risks. Sure I'm not happy about the 6 month delay but I'm not relying on this to start a business or something and I would rather end up with working quality machine than something half baked.

The only other thing I can say is that I'm glad I don't have as pessimistic view of the world as some people posting in here.

[Dave Sheldrake]

allowing me to do some laser cutting without the headache of troubleshooting one from China.

You may want to look into where those tubes are being made given the number of tube manufacturers in the world. Here's a hint, it won't be Coherant or GSI I'd suggest :)


They are in fact using multiple custom components

For most mechanical or electronic items that's not a good thing, why else do you think the timing belts for my GTR cost £250 a time, could it be maybe that they only fit that car and no other models?


without knowing how good it will be while simultaneously telling me it is made with cheap components.

Deductive logic....first sentinel of business....you cannot pay a little and get a lot.


I'm glad I don't have as pessimistic view

Maybe substitute, "Realistic" for "Pessimistic" and you will be a lot closer.

sadly it seems the positive *vibes* about the GF seem to come from one source, the company that is getting paid for them (or paying for reviews to be done) while the more negative view is coming from people with no monkeys in that circus and are reliant on basic economic reasoning and fundamental common sense (and a few hundred years of combined experience with lasers)

It may come as a surprise but little to nothing has changed in the way of Laser technology in many decades (caveat: other than MIT finding a way to generate a beam narrower than the wavelength of the light), there are only so many ways of hooking energy into a photon stream, the biggest gains will be more likely to come from finding a way to cool resonators in a new way given that there is no upper limit in Physics to how powerful a laser can actually be.

It has become apparent though that when GF move the goal posts rather than being held to what they have said, investors seem happier to lower their expectations rather than accept there is a problem.

[Art Mann]

I love all the claims that Glowforge is using cheap components or off the shelf chinese components. So with the same breath you tell me I am a fool for taking a risk on a product without knowing how good it will be while simultaneously telling me it is made with cheap components. Something that you have just as little and idea about as I do that it will be quality product. They are in fact using multiple custom components, one of which is the reason for the delay. The truth is that none of know if the Glowforge will be successful or not, some of us just chose to take a chance on what I hope will be a great machine allowing me to do some laser cutting without the headache of troubleshooting one from China.

Some Chinese manufacturers supply machines that work well. They are a good value, though not the best quality. We have no evidence Glowforge is capable of anything more than producing a great (if deceptive) website. The evidence against their claims for availability and functionality are eroding with every delay.

Tesla is another example of a company that took preorders for a new and unproven product and was extremely late in delivering but when they did it was a fantastic product. Not a direct comparison but it is an example of why we should be willing to support American entrepreneurs and take some risks. Sure I'm not happy about the 6 month delay but I'm not relying on this to start a business or something and I would rather end up with working quality machine than something half baked.

Tesla is not yet profitable. They are selling every car at a loss. Sales are supported by heavy government subsidies. Those will soon play out soon and then we will see what the real Tesla company can do. I have been an engineer in the automobile manufacturing industry for most of my career. I just had to laugh out loud at their excuses for manufacturing delays. Anyone with any sense knows you can't start production until every single supplier of every single component is ready to produce in quantity. Apparently, Elan didn't realize that. Is that the Glowforge problem?

The only other thing I can say is that I'm glad I don't have as pessimistic view of the world as some people posting in here.

[Official message length padding here]

[Mark Sipes]

Build it and they will come....... Promise to build it and they will beat a path to your door!

[Kev Williams]

Laser technology may not have changed much, but neither has the pathway that leads to the finished product, like the mechanics and the method of getting your idea to the machine. Not saying GF is breaking a lot of new ground in these areas either, but somewhat. GF's main goal is to tap into the goldmine that is every day people who would otherwise never know, or care about a C02 laser. Doesn't matter how good or bad it is, they HAVE to market hype the thing. And try to build it decent. Whether or not it works exactly like, or better than my LS900 or Steve's Trotec or Bert's Rabbit doesn't matter. Whether it works at all matters, so that regular people will want one.

And market hype is as market hype does. GF is hardly breaking any marketing rules And they can call it what they want, 3D printer (even a 'real' 3D printer doesn't "print"--just my opinion), or a box cutter, a polymer vaporizer, who cares. I've noticed that pro wrestlers are referring to themselves as "heroes" on the WWF TV ads....seriously?

[Bert Kemp]

Are you serious with that statement:confused: Do you really think that a $2500 laser is going to work out of the box and not have problems. Epilog, Trotec, UVL, Rabbit , Boss, and Thunder lasers just to mention a few and the big 3 start in a price range 5 to 10 times that of a GF and their trouble shooting problems here on a daily basis. and for the record I've had my cheap POS rabbit for going on 2 years and and have had only one minor problem with the machine and I still think its a software problem and all my other problems were in corel . So good luck thinking your cut and engrave problem free:rolleyes:


I love all the claims that Glowforge is using cheap components or off the shelf chinese components. So with the same breath you tell me I am a fool for taking a risk on a product without knowing how good it will be while simultaneously telling me it is made with cheap components. Something that you have just as little and idea about as I do that it will be quality product. They are in fact using multiple custom components, one of which is the reason for the delay. The truth is that none of know if the Glowforge will be successful or not, some of us just chose to take a chance on what I hope will be a great machine allowing me to do some laser cutting without the headache of troubleshooting one from China.

Tesla is another example of a company that took preorders for a new and unproven product and was extremely late in delivering but when they did it was a fantastic product. Not a direct comparison but it is an example of why we should be willing to support American entrepreneurs and take some risks. Sure I'm not happy about the 6 month delay but I'm not relying on this to start a business or something and I would rather end up with working quality machine than something half baked.

The only other thing I can say is that I'm glad I don't have as pessimistic view of the world as some people posting in here.

[Matt McCoy]

...We have no evidence Glowforge is capable of anything more than producing a great (if deceptive) website. The evidence against their claims for availability and functionality are eroding with every delay.

Except for its founders' past business successes and seasoned investors with lots of experience bringing tech hardware to market.


Are you serious with that statement:confused: Do you really think that a $2500 laser is going to work out of the box and not have problems.

He literally did not say that. Here's what was said:

"I hope [it] will be a great machine allowing me to do some laser cutting without the headache of troubleshooting one from China."

If you ever visit some of the very large FB laser groups, you will read a metric ton of support questions and about issues with ebay lasers. That is the market that GF is paying attention to.

[chase standifer]

I expect to have to trouble shoot for sure. The hope is that the problems are with dialing in the intensity and speed and other design problems with individual projects. Not the hardware problems I consistently see in FB laser groups. Like people that spend more than a Glowforge and can't even get a manual in english.

I understand that all chinese machines aren't crap, but from what I have seen online most of the ones in the same price range as the Glowforge are quite the headache.

All I'm saying is that people are passing judgement on a product with little proof one way or the other. You may not want to spend the money to take the risk yourself but certainly we should all hope this company succeeds and opens up laser cutting to a whole new market of people who would never bother otherwise, like myself.

[Bert Kemp]

I can tell you that a 40 or 45 watt GF will have trouble cutting anything over 1/8inch with any consistency. I've said it a 100 times these things are a toy and the novelty will wear off pretty fast after you all discover that it can't do or maybe do very very slowly what it claims. It claims that it can recognize material, sure buy the price inflated specially coded material from GF and it will know what it is, put a piece of un coded paper in it and tell it to cut and whoa burn your house down cause it had no idea what it was and put to much power to the paper and instant fire. We all may have no Idea if the GF will work or be successful but we do know what it can and can't do. One thing for sure its not going to 3D print anything now or ever.


I expect to have to trouble shoot for sure. The hope is that the problems are with dialing in the intensity and speed and other design problems with individual projects. Not the hardware problems I consistently see in FB laser groups. Like people that spend more than a Glowforge and can't even get a manual in english.

I understand that all chinese machines aren't crap, but from what I have seen online most of the ones in the same price range as the Glowforge are quite the headache.

All I'm saying is that people are passing judgement on a product with little proof one way or the other. You may not want to spend the money to take the risk yourself but certainly we should all hope this company succeeds and opens up laser cutting to a whole new market of people who would never bother otherwise, like myself.

[Lee DeRaud]

I can tell you that a 40 or 45 watt GF will have trouble cutting anything over 1/8inch with any consistency.Ok, as I'm sure you've been able to figure out, I'm not exactly a GF cheerleader.

But I'm a bit puzzled by that comment, as I have zero problems cutting 1/4" wood and acrylic with quite a bit less power than that. Am I missing something?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Ok, as I'm sure you've been able to figure out, I'm not exactly a GF cheerleader.

But I'm a bit puzzled by that comment, as I have zero problems cutting 1/4" wood and acrylic with quite a bit less power than that. Am I missing something?

DC and RF are very different Lee, a DC tube (like the GF) will struggle to cut 1/4inch materials at any speed. The better beam profile and power distribution curve of an RF (like epilog etc) will cut well above what a DC tube of the same power rating will do.
As a rule of thumb, if you double an RF you will get the equivalent DC rating.
So a 120 watt DC will cut as well as a 60watt RF (give or take a bit)

caveat: there are exceptions such as DC tubes from GSI and Coherant but you are talking tubes from $5,000 to $40,000 in cost for a glass tube

[Lee DeRaud]

DC and RF are very different Lee, a DC tube (like the GF) will struggle to cut 1/4inch materials at any speed. The better beam profile and power distribution curve of an RF (like epilog etc) will cut well above what a DC tube of the same power rating will do.
As a rule of thumb, if you double an RF you will get the equivalent DC rating.
So a 120 watt DC will cut as well as a 60watt RF (give or take a bit)Ah, did not know that. I guess my 25W ULS isn't quite as wimpy as it sounds. :cool:

(Latest tube is actually 28W or so, but still...)

[Bert Kemp]

I'm didn't say it wouldn't cut it just its going to be very slow,my 40 watt FSL took forever to cut 1/4 never did it cut the entire designs I always had to take a razor and cut the missed parts and I always had charred edges. Now I know It wasn't a real 40 watt more like 30 but is the GF going to have a real 40 tube in it. I really doubt it as the entire width of the case is shorter then a 40 watt tube:eek:


Ok, as I'm sure you've been able to figure out, I'm not exactly a GF cheerleader.

But I'm a bit puzzled by that comment, as I have zero problems cutting 1/4" wood and acrylic with quite a bit less power than that. Am I missing something?

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

Some Chinese manufacturers supply machines that work well. They are a good value, though not the best quality. We have no evidence Glowforge is capable of anything more than producing a great (if deceptive) website. The evidence against their claims for availability and functionality are eroding with every delay.

Glowforge will ship, probably closer to a year from now. Whether they have any longevity is the question. They've got plenty of backing from big names and VCs that know how to guide someone to release a shipping product. If nothing else I'd reckon they'd be around for a couple of years before the machines are bricked. In terms of technology it's nothing new, it's the integration of the parts that is new. In terms of marketing calling it a 3D laser printer is at best misleading, at worst deceptive. What they are doing is getting the UI/UX to a point where untrained users can make it into a crafting hobby or small business. It's more of a software product than a hardware product. My interest (though I wouldn't buy one) is in how they scale the technology of the cameras and sensors and integrate that in a package and how the UX is improved to a point where consumers can more easily use it. Software across the network only is a deal breaker for me and should be for most consumers. It's going to take a few more cloud based consumer companies to go off line the way Revolv has to gain more traction in seeing that connected devices that only fully function connected is a bad idea right now.

Contrary to what the previous poster said about custom parts, the core components of the machine are readily available, most of them used in the cell phone/mobile technology. That is what makes the machine possible. What is custom is how those commodity parts are integrated into the machine and the software that controls them. They are using a high volume, high profile contract manufacturer so scale won't be an issue. Should they make it that far. In terms of scale the ecosphere in Shenzhen scales like no other manufacturing hub in the world. That's one reason Foxconn can build 5 million iPhones in several weeks. I see the issue right now is that the design isn't fully fleshed out. Most of the manufacturing design team wasn't in place when they announced a ship date, they're playing catch up now.

As for Tesla's ZEV credits, Nissan and GM have sold far more ZEV eligible units and as a result have gotten a larger share of the ZEV subsidises. While the ZEV credit is an important component of Tesla's model (and plug in electric in general) most of the money funding Tesla is investor money, not public money.

[Lee DeRaud]

What they are doing is getting the UI/UX to a point where untrained users can make it into a crafting hobby or small business. It's more of a software product than a hardware product. My interest (though I wouldn't buy one) is in how they scale the technology of the cameras and sensors and integrate that in a package and how the UX is improved to a point where consumers can more easily use it.I'm still a bit unclear on the 'value-added' of this, as it seems to fall into a category I usually refer to as "automating the easiest 10% of the job". While "pushbutton creativity" sells well, it has a rather short half-life.

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I'm still a bit unclear on the 'value-added' of this, as it seems to fall into a category I usually refer to as "automating the easiest 10% of the job". While "pushbutton creativity" sells well, it has a rather short half-life.


Point taken but you are looking at it from a woodworker/machinist perspective. The audience isn't people that are likely to come here, or CNC Zone or perhaps are members of a maker space. My wife and her Aunt are good examples. They are both crafters and are good at it. in an analog world. Pens, paper, paint.Remember Tandy kits? McCall's drawers at the fabric store? This is aiming to be the modern equivalent of that, though at a much higher price tag. These people can create the art, but not operate the tools to convey that art in other forms. She can use the ULS at Techshop (with some help) where we started the business but the FSL we bought to bring it in house not a chance. There are many artisans in that same boat. Take me, or my dad or our granddaughter and it's different. Likely more like you. We use CNC tools, in fact the kid was raised on Autocad and Solidworks, CNC, 3D printing, laser. As easy as we think even one of those K40 cheapies are to use, there are many, many that are into crafting and are great artist but are totally stumped by the technology. I see that as what Glowforge is trying to target. One of the main questions is that market big enough.

[Bill George]

Where I live the middle school , junior high kids are learning computer drafting and CNC in school classes. Granted its simple stuff but some of the kids take to it like a fish to water. They even get to build robots.

[Clark Pace]

I am not that patient. I actually put a donation down on a 3D printer a few years ago. It was only a 6 month wait. I finally withdrew(got my money back), got a another 3D printer and have been happy with how things turned out? So the company that I originally put some money down on even after a 1 1/2 seem to still be having problems. Several people are having issues, and of course some are not. I can't imagine what gf will do if there product is practically perfect out of the gate.

[Rich Harman]

DC and RF are very different Lee, a DC tube (like the GF) will struggle to cut 1/4inch materials at any speed.

I noticed no significant difference in cutting speed between my 80 Watt glass tube (DC) and a 100 Watt Universal laser (RF). I expected the 100W RF laser to to cut much faster but I was completely underwhelmed. So in my personal experience, combined with watching countless videos of various lasers cutting materials - I think that to say an RF laser can cut twice as fast as a DC is quite misleading.

I won't dispute that a several thousand dollar RF laser will have a better beam profile than my $400 80W Reci, and therefore be able to cut faster. But I challenge you to prove that it can cut twice as fast, or even 50% faster. A ten to twenty percent advantage, I could believe, but I'll need evidence to be able to accept more than that.

[Dave Sheldrake]

So a 120 watt DC will cut as well as a 60watt RF (give or take a bit)

I didn't say twice as fast :) , try cutting thin profiles on a DC tube, such as 3mm thick ply with a 0.5mm cross section. As a normal DC lasers power increases the beam profile usually suffers to a point where it become brutal with abberations causing all manner of unwanted effects. It's the nature of high voltage DC generated laser beams.

I have DC, RF , Diode Stack Pumped and Flowing Gas lasers here and they all have their place, my personal choice is large DC as they are the most cost effective but I'm not under any illusion that they can match the general quality of a decent RF.

It's like comparing Fords to Ferraris though, the RF should be better, it costs 25x as much

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I noticed no significant difference in cutting speed between my 80 Watt glass tube (DC) and a 100 Watt Universal laser (RF). I expected the 100W RF laser to to cut much faster but I was completely underwhelmed. So in my personal experience, combined with watching countless videos of various lasers cutting materials - I think that to say an RF laser can cut twice as fast as a DC is quite misleading.

I won't dispute that a several thousand dollar RF laser will have a better beam profile than my $400 80W Reci, and therefore be able to cut faster. But I challenge you to prove that it can cut twice as fast, or even 50% faster. A ten to twenty percent advantage, I could believe, but I'll need evidence to be able to accept more than that.

Depending on the part, our switch from primarily ULS (some Epilog and a bit of Trotec) to an in house GWieke by way of FSL was on a couple of parts was almost twice the time. A 7 min cut on ULS VLS460 is just over 12 min on LC6040N, 18 min part on ULS, 25 min on FSL. Most are in the 20-50% difference in the cutting times. Same files, same material. There were some differences in edge finish and kerf with the more expensive machines producing noticeably better quality (though for our app that wasn't a concern) We've been cutting these parts for about 4 years, almost two of which we've been doing in house. Thousands of parts at this point. I don't regret one bit buying what we did though a ULS would have been nice. The FSL has done what we've needed, when we needs and paid for itself in the process.

I think Dave's auto comparison is pretty apt in this case.

[Rich Harman]

I didn't say twice as fast :) , try cutting thin profiles on a DC tube, such as 3mm thick ply with a 0.5mm cross section.

You said;
...DC tube (like the GF) will struggle to cut 1/4inch materials at any speed. The better beam profile and power distribution curve of an RF (like epilog etc) will cut well above what a DC tube of the same power rating will do.

That sure sounds like you were talking about cutting speed to me. You were responding to Lee's comment about him not having trouble cutting with less power. Lee was responding to Bert, he brought up slow cutting speed. You seem now to be talking about the ability to cut very fine details - which is fine, but not on point.


As a normal DC lasers power increases the beam profile usually suffers to a point where it become brutal with abberations causing all manner of unwanted effects. It's the nature of high voltage DC generated laser beams.

That may well be true, but how is it relevant to cutting 1/4" plywood?


It's like comparing Fords to Ferraris though, the RF should be better, it costs 25x as much

The Ferrari may be faster and hold a better line, but the Ford will get you from A to B just as well, there is no difference in their ability to transport someone to a destination. You would need a special circumstance for the Ferrari to be able to outperform the Ford in that regard.

[Jacob John]

I keep seeing GlowForge refresh their sponsored Facebook ads, or maybe they're deleting comments, but every single time I see an ad on my news feed, which is around once a week, it's littered with 3D printer owners and others railing on the fact that it's not a 3D printer. If I were on the GlowForge marketing team, I'd seriously consider changing this. I've seen nothing but negativity from that part.

[Dave Sheldrake]

That may well be true, but how is it relevant to cutting 1/4" plywood?

Cross sectional power distribution and beam profile makes a big difference to penetration of a laser beam, the nature of an RF having PWM control also makes a difference to how well it will cut 1/4inch plywood, the ignition to lase time of a DC is magnitudes of order slower than an RF tube. The optical quality of DC tubes full reflectors and partial reflectors are well below those of a more expensive RF tube.
All these factors affect quality, speed and penetrative ability of a beam. Better speeds are a factor, but I didn't say the only factor.

[Kev Williams]

FWIW- I ran a cut test a week or so ago with my 80w Reci Triumph-

1/4" cast acrylic, masked on both sides, 2" lens, 26mV on the meter, it took 22 seconds to cover 15.2" (386mm), which works out to .69" (17.5mm) per second.
The laser just barely made it all the way thru.

My RF lasers are 35 and 40 watts, so not sure if cut time x2 is a fair comparison or not?

[Jason Hilton]

Dave's is the most important post to digest. Professional laser businesses are NOT Glowforge's target market. Your concerns are NOT hobbiest concerns, because most GF purchasers aren't worried about how long it takes to produce 1000 trophy plates. They want an affordable tool that lets them be a little more efficient, accurate, and make things they couldn't make before.


Point taken but you are looking at it from a woodworker/machinist perspective. The audience isn't people that are likely to come here, or CNC Zone or perhaps are members of a maker space. My wife and her Aunt are good examples. They are both crafters and are good at it. in an analog world. Pens, paper, paint.Remember Tandy kits? McCall's drawers at the fabric store? This is aiming to be the modern equivalent of that, though at a much higher price tag. These people can create the art, but not operate the tools to convey that art in other forms. She can use the ULS at Techshop (with some help) where we started the business but the FSL we bought to bring it in house not a chance. There are many artisans in that same boat. Take me, or my dad or our granddaughter and it's different. Likely more like you. We use CNC tools, in fact the kid was raised on Autocad and Solidworks, CNC, 3D printing, laser. As easy as we think even one of those K40 cheapies are to use, there are many, many that are into crafting and are great artist but are totally stumped by the technology. I see that as what Glowforge is trying to target. One of the main questions is that market big enough.

[Lee DeRaud]

Point taken but you are looking at it from a woodworker/machinist perspective. The audience isn't people that are likely to come here, or CNC Zone or perhaps are members of a maker space. My wife and her Aunt are good examples. They are both crafters and are good at it. in an analog world. Pens, paper, paint.Remember Tandy kits? McCall's drawers at the fabric store? This is aiming to be the modern equivalent of that, though at a much higher price tag. These people can create the art, but not operate the tools to convey that art in other forms. She can use the ULS at Techshop (with some help) where we started the business but the FSL we bought to bring it in house not a chance. There are many artisans in that same boat. Take me, or my dad or our granddaughter and it's different. Likely more like you. We use CNC tools, in fact the kid was raised on Autocad and Solidworks, CNC, 3D printing, laser. As easy as we think even one of those K40 cheapies are to use, there are many, many that are into crafting and are great artist but are totally stumped by the technology. I see that as what Glowforge is trying to target. One of the main questions is that market big enough.The process breaks down to two general pieces, call it "design" and "manufacture". What's striking me is, the people you just described can already handle the "design" part, right? Otherwise this really is a paint-by-numbers widget and the novelty will wear thin very quickly at a four-figure price point.

On the "manufacture" side, for the life of me, I don't see how someone who can operate a sewing machine competently can have any trouble at all learning to use a laser. Heck, the learning curve for knitting is an order of magnitude steeper than anything encountered in the laser world. I'm also flashing on a couple of seriously non-techie "crafter" types I know who, as it happens, own and successfully use vinyl cutting machines...how is a laser qualitatively different?

[Glen Monaghan]

...for the life of me, I don't see how someone who can operate a sewing machine competently can have any trouble at all learning to use a laser. Heck, the learning curve for knitting is an order of magnitude steeper than anything encountered in the laser world. I'm also flashing on a couple of seriously non-techie "crafter" types I know who, as it happens, own and successfully use vinyl cutting machines...how is a laser qualitatively different?

Well, according to SWMBO, the laser will burn your flesh and permanently blind you, so she won't have anything to do with it other than task me with using it to create her designs... But then, she won't reach behind a computer to operate a power switch or plug in a USB cable either, because it might electrocute her 8-/

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

For about five years now I've been working out of several makerspaces, primarily the three Techshops in Silicon Valley and one at ASU in Chandler, AZ. What's important is creating, not so much the practice. The tool is a means to an end, not the focal point of the process. At one point we were in the spaces 12-14 hours a day. I saw the same sort of issues not only with the laser but with the 3D printers (which is our current business has shipped kits and parts for more than 6000 machines in the last 3 years), the Shopbots, Flow and Tormach. When one looks at what different communities are discussing, Reddit, Google + and other communities one aspect that is common is the overall user experience and how that can be streamlined. They want what the machine makes, not so much to become an expert in how the machine works. Many in the maker spaces, particularly at the four we visit are also prototyping business ideas. From cutting custom packaging inserts to order for a project for Dell based on what you order to wearables, leather goods and plain ol' art. Many of the ideas and products you see in tech have come from prototypes built in the Bay Area Techshops including the Square card reader for mobile phones and the original Nest devices.

There absolutely is demand for a better user experience with the machine doing the file prep and machine config as need with little no intervention from the operator other than the design and required material. As for the $4k price point I think it remains to be seen what the overall market is though companies like FSL and Rabbit are able to sell the 20x12 machines for a few grand and don't seem to be doing to badly. As I said before I'm not sold on the software as a service as the sole model for using the machine. And that's coming from someone that survived Web 1.0, the turn of the century Dot Com bust and is now working on connected devices.

[Lee DeRaud]

There absolutely is demand for a better user experience with the machine doing the file prep and machine config as need with little no intervention from the operator other than the design and required material.Ok, maybe I'm spoiled by using a "high-end" (by FSL/Rabbit/GF standards): just how bad is the "user experience" for the low-end machines? Because with the software I got with my ULS 11 years ago, it's about as complicated as printing a photo to an ink-jet printer, with comparable success rates for the end product.

[Bert Kemp]

Yea I really don't see were the user experience is going to be that much different then running any other laser . except its going to be a lot slower having to stop every few min's so it can cool down. The hardest part about my Rabbit is doing the design work in corel. Once that's done I just send it to the laser and let it do the work. Sure I have to put the speed and power setting in but if a GF user doesn't pay the premium price for coded materials their going to have to put those settings in also. Also your gonna tell me a GF user will never have to change a tube, clean a mirror or replace a lens. I can't believe that. and at the price point of the GF they can have a bigger more powerful, better built and safer laser then the GF. oh and the big thing they can have it in a couple of weeks or less not a year or two from now:D and don't forget the GF will only run with good internet service:eek:

[Bill George]

Like I said a long time ago related to the GF, I see a business opportunity as a tech, but with a first hour rate of say $90 an hour I don't see repeat customers.

[Jason Hilton]

Ok, maybe I'm spoiled by using a "high-end" (by FSL/Rabbit/GF standards): just how bad is the "user experience" for the low-end machines? Because with the software I got with my ULS 11 years ago, it's about as complicated as printing a photo to an ink-jet printer, with comparable success rates for the end product.

VERY bad. In some cases kinda bad. From a qualitative and quantitative UX perspective most laser control software, even from the big 3, is extremely hard to use and learn. Epilog gets it closest by making it a print driver, there's an analog there that clicks with a lot of people. But don't assume that 11 years of experience equates to a good user experience for new users. I've seen long-time users of software products cling to really bad UX because it's what they're used to. That's fine for those few, but the majority of new users will find the same experience incredibly hard to learn, even if they're in the industry the software serves.

(Side note, I'm a full time User Experience Designer)

[Doug Griffith]

I've been a freelance industrial designer for 20 or so years and worked with hundreds of customers and other designers. One thing I can say is that knowing the equipment, materials, and nuts and bolts of the manufacturing process is a big reason why I get jobs and others don't. Designers that just design and think there's a proverbial "easy button" to spit out a product get slapped in the face with reality. Creating equipment that caters to this belief is not good for anybody down the line. Not the customer because they have a false belief how easy things are and expect quick and cheap. Not the product manufacturer because they have to engineer around designs that can not be manufactured. Not the designer because... oh, they've already been paid so I guess it doesn't affect them. This is not just a Glowforge thing either. It's everywhere. Rant over.

[Lee DeRaud]

Epilog gets it closest by making it a print driver, there's an analog there that clicks with a lot of people.That's exactly how the ULS works, at least on my lower-end model (VL200). Like I said, about the equivalent of a decent ink-jet printer.

But don't assume that 11 years of experience equates to a good user experience for new users.Just because I've been using it for 11 years doesn't mean it was a bad experience on day 1...quite the opposite in fact.

I've seen long-time users of software products cling to really bad UX because it's what they're used to.
(Side note, I'm a full time User Experience Designer)Would you mind dialing the condescension back about 6dB? Sometimes long-time users of software products keep using a really good UX because, well, it's really good.

(Side note, you're not the only person here with extensive UX design experience.)

[Bill George]

And as strange as it seems little Susie when she gets mom and dad to buy the low end version of the Glow Forge will still need to learn design software and be able to draw both lines for vectors and designs for engraving. Then uploading to the "cloud" and waiting for the file to download to the GF will be frustration.

Yes, try using Autodesk 123D Catch for example like I did to try 3D scanned model creation for my 3D printer. Some files never did come back finished from the Cloud and those that did were disappointing most of the time.

[Jason Hilton]

I'm sorry you felt condescended to, that wasn't my intention. Side note, maybe dial down your sensitively to 6db? (That condescension was intentional)

Your personal experience aside, not everyone is you, that was my point. You may not represent the average new laser user and you may not have on day one (I don't know either way). Despite my printer example, in a class of 15 users new to laser engraving, I observed 10 who struggled to understand how to use the Epilog print driver. A good user experience is accessible and easy to learn for it's target audience. Glowforge very clearly understands their target market and is creating an experience to maximize their success using their product.


That's exactly how the ULS works, at least on my lower-end model (VL200). Like I said, about the equivalent of a decent ink-jet printer.
Just because I've been using it for 11 years doesn't mean it was a bad experience on day 1...quite the opposite in fact.
Would you mind dialing the condescension back about 6dB? Sometimes long-time users of software products keep using a really good UX because, well, it's really good.

(Side note, you're not the only person here with extensive UX design experience.)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Ok, maybe I'm spoiled by using a "high-end" (by FSL/Rabbit/GF standards): just how bad is the "user experience" for the low-end machines? Because with the software I got with my ULS 11 years ago, it's about as complicated as printing a photo to an ink-jet printer, with comparable success rates for the end product.

For stuff like the entry level K40's etc, really bad brother...if they even turn up straight it's a miracle (I've thrown 3 away in the last 3 years that were sent to me for reviews) chocolate components and unreliable at best, dangerous junk at worst.

US/UK supplied Chinese are pretty good by all standards, cheap to maintain as long as you use them within their limitations. I have a few of the big Chinese machines and they make me great money, if I want to do really small cross section stuff (like the engine parts on the Titan II I'm working on) they can be hopeless.
336638

I'm not anti Chinese laser or anti Western, they both have their place :)

[Lee DeRaud]

Your personal experience aside, not everyone is you, that was my point. You may not represent the average new laser user and you may not have on day one (I don't know either way).I like to think that I don't represent the "average" anything, then or now. That aside, you keep dismissing the actual experiences of people on this forum, on the theory that they are different in some vague way from the GF target audience.

Despite my printer example, in a class of 15 users new to laser engraving, I observed 10 who struggled to understand how to use the Epilog print driver. A good user experience is accessible and easy to learn for it's target audience.And my question would be, what exactly were they trying to accomplish? Engrave/cut a canned example file? Because I really have a lot of trouble believing that people who can handle Corel (or equivalent) are struggling to understand how to use a print driver.

Again, my original point: getting from the design to the finished product is not the hard part, getting from idea to design is.

[Jason Hilton]

I like to think that I don't represent the "average" anything, then or now. That aside, you keep dismissing the actual experiences of people on this forum, on the theory that they are different in some vague way from the GF target audience.

I haven't been vague at all, you simply haven't been listening (go ahead, call me condescending). With the exception of a few hobbyists, most of the members of this forum self-identify as professional laser engraver users, which is decidedly not (as pointed out by YOU, among others) Glowforge's target market. You ARE different from the GF target audience, as you yourself have stated previously. I haven't dismissed you in any way (and certainly not the way you've dismissed me). I've tried to communicate that a market segmentation exists, which you seem to believe is irrelevant. My professional experience and common sense tells me otherwise.



Again, my original point: getting from the design to the finished product is not the hard part, getting from idea to design is.

And again, you're pointing out a significant market differentiator (despite apparently not recognizing one exists) between professional users and Glowforge's target market: While Glowforge has made flexible tools to cut and engrave custom designs, they are also making significant efforts to give casual makers pre-tested designs and materials to cut on their machines. It's the market equivalent of building a model boat from scratch or buying a kit. Some people just want a boat. It's the same reason some people scratch build CNC machines and others buy a ShopBot. Different needs and wants for different groups of people.

Dismiss it any way you want, but Glowforge as a business and a product doesn't care about you, they know this is not the product for you (the above average:rolleyes: professional). You aren't Glowforge's target market. Not all laser users are the same, and your needs and experiences don't represent everyone's needs or experiences.

[Kev Williams]

Users of lasers making a living are NOT the target audience for this thing. Proof of that is in these pages!

I wholeheartedly agree that bored, normal people needing something else to do besides look at their stupid phones are the target audience...

think "Cricut", a vinyl cutter for the bored housewife-slash-scrapbooker... how many people making vinyl signage for a living do you suppose bought a Cricut to augment their income?

The GF is just the laser equivalent of the Cricut....

[Bill George]

This Forum represents professional and semi professional laser users. We can see the marketing hype and misleading information in the GF advertising being presented to the intended home / hobbyist end user. I had to tell a GF presold user over on a 3D printer Forum that if his plans were to make money with a laser, perhaps another brand and more money would be needed. He is a vet and can not afford more, and is pinning his hopes on the Glow Forge to make him a living. What would you tell him?

[Jason Hilton]

Yes yes yes


users of lasers making a living are not the target audience for this thing. Proof of that is in these pages!

I wholeheartedly agree that bored, normal people needing something else to do besides look at their stupid phones are the target audience...

Think "cricut", a vinyl cutter for the bored housewife-slash-scrapbooker... How many people making vinyl signage for a living do you suppose bought a cricut to augment their income?

The gf is just the laser equivalent of the cricut....

[Jason Hilton]

This Forum represents professional and semi professional laser users. We can see the marketing hype and misleading information in the GF advertising being presented to the intended home / hobbyist end user. I had to tell a GF presold user over on a 3D printer Forum that if his plans were to make money with a laser, perhaps another brand and more money would be needed. He is a vet and can not afford more, and is pinning his hopes on the Glow Forge to make him a living. What would you tell him?

I would tell him more than you told him. Can you make money with a Glowforge? Yes. The speed, power, and depth available will work in a low volume, low depth environment. You can make money on the side. You can run it full time but because it is a hobby level machine you probably won't make a living. That said it IS an affordable place to start. Get some small items out there and start building a business with less risk. If your demand scales then you've got a business case to invest in professional level equipment, if not you've only risked 2-5k instead of 25-50k, which I know happens (especially epilog buyers who buy into their promise you'll start a successful business and all you need is an epilog laser!) I've been dancing around a trotec for 2 years, but I can't justify it for what is for me a hobby. I CAN justify a 4k glowforge, because it didn't put me into debt and I'm not trying to make a living with a laser. I just want to make stuff.

[Lee DeRaud]

I've been dancing around a trotec for 2 years, but I can't justify it for what is for me a hobby. I CAN justify a 4k glowforge, because it didn't put me into debt and I'm not trying to make a living with a laser. I just want to make stuff.You and I are different in one important respect: I can justify spending the money for quality tools to support my hobby.

Yes, hobby. If you think I'm one of the professionals whose opinions you have so little use for, you really haven't been paying attention.

I'm done here.

[Glen Monaghan]

Oooohhhhh.... What size are those nozzle bells? Are they plywood or ?

I've been mulling over how to laser cut a dome/onion for an architectural model that didn't look totally clunky and wasn't a royal pain to piece together a jillion little pieces, and this looks like a great solution. At first, I thought the bell wedges were each part of a single piece (I picture it as a sort of "king's crown" shape when still flat) that gets wrapped into a circular shape and then the crown points curved inward to make the bell shape, but it seems more likely they are individual strips? Sort of a "living hinge" approach to create each curved wedge, only the cross marks are not cut all the way through?

[Jason Hilton]

We are different. You narrowly equate quality with expensive. I on the other hand measure other factors in addition to cost.

As far as professional opinions, I haven't mentioned anyones opinions at all. I've tried to describe to you how market segmentation works, and how it applies to Glowforge. It's too bad you're taking your ball and going home, I thought I was getting through to you.


You and I are different in one important respect: I can justify spending the money for quality tools to support my hobby.

Yes, hobby. If you think I'm one of the professionals whose opinions you have so little use for, you really haven't been paying attention.

I'm done here.

[Bill Carruthers]

I don't really care much one way or the other on Glowforge but maybe this might fall into the realm of being a 3D printer and a laser too for less than $300! Looks interesting any way-- http://www.trinus3d.com/

[Bill George]

It sounds as space cadet as the Glow Forge, more so. What are you going to do with 1/2 watt laser engraver? At $300 its way cheap for a 3D printer. Ask me how I know.... Yeah it will be great for printing with ABS with no heated build plate. Maybe the GF users can switch over to this?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Oooohhhhh.... What size are those nozzle bells? Are they plywood or ?

I've been mulling over how to laser cut a dome/onion for an architectural model that didn't look totally clunky and wasn't a royal pain to piece together a jillion little pieces, and this looks like a great solution. At first, I thought the bell wedges were each part of a single piece (I picture it as a sort of "king's crown" shape when still flat) that gets wrapped into a circular shape and then the crown points curved inward to make the bell shape, but it seems more likely they are individual strips? Sort of a "living hinge" approach to create each curved wedge, only the cross marks are not cut all the way through?

Ply and MDF, there are 260 parts in each engine pictured :) A month and a lot of scrap to get them right :) Try the solidworks structural loading add-on, that's what gets the size and length of the penetrating cuts. (each motor is 200mm tall (about 8 inches))

[Lee DeRaud]

I don't really care much one way or the other on Glowforge but maybe this might fall into the realm of being a 3D printer and a laser too for less than $300! Looks interesting any way-- http://www.trinus3d.com/ Found this quote: "Trinus extrudes PLA, ABS, PC, Flex, Wood, and most other materials available on the market."

Wood?!? Does that word mean something different in the 3D-printer world?

[Lee DeRaud]

Oooohhhhh.... What size are those nozzle bells? Are they plywood or ?

I've been mulling over how to laser cut a dome/onion for an architectural model that didn't look totally clunky and wasn't a royal pain to piece together a jillion little pieces, and this looks like a great solution. At first, I thought the bell wedges were each part of a single piece (I picture it as a sort of "king's crown" shape when still flat) that gets wrapped into a circular shape and then the crown points curved inward to make the bell shape, but it seems more likely they are individual strips? Sort of a "living hinge" approach to create each curved wedge, only the cross marks are not cut all the way through?What size? This is a sculpture I did last month: 1/4" MDF and Bondo, about 12"x16"x10". The tradeoff is smoothness vs number of pieces...I decided to hit the "smooth" part in post-processing.

336644

[Bert Kemp]

I would tell him more than you told him. Can you make money with a Glowforge? Yes. The speed, power, and depth available will work in a low volume, low depth environment. You can make money on the side. You can run it full time but because it is a hobby level machine you probably won't make a living. That said it IS an affordable place to start. Get some small items out there and start building a business with less risk. If your demand scales then you've got a business case to invest in professional level equipment, if not you've only risked 2-5k instead of 25-50k, which I know happens (especially epilog buyers who buy into their promise you'll start a successful business and all you need is an epilog laser!) I've been dancing around a trotec for 2 years, but I can't justify it for what is for me a hobby. I CAN justify a 4k glowforge, because it didn't put me into debt and I'm not trying to make a living with a laser. I just want to make stuff.

2 to 5 k will get you a pretty good import way better then a gf. They will run all day and not have to stop every 10 min's to cool off, they will have a bigger bed size and won't be dependent on a internet connection

[Bill George]

Found this quote: "Trinus extrudes PLA, ABS, PC, Flex, Wood, and most other materials available on the market."

Wood?!? Does that word mean something different in the 3D-printer world?

Its a plastic filament for 3D printing that has a lot of very tiny specks of wood. Actually it does a pretty decent job and the product can be sanded and stained like wood. I have a roll, never got around to use it yet. My free time was spent trying to get a 3D scanner to work.. Another Crowd Funded venture that made it to market, to bad it does work like its suppose to work. It went back for a refund and now I see the price has dropped yet again....

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

Trinius has the potential to be an epic Kickstarter fail. We'll see. In order to make the July/Aug shipping deadline they would already have to be tooled, have test jigs for the electronics, components sourced and packaging designed. They claimed the first public beta releases a couple of weeks ago.

Laywoo-D3 is a filament that comprises about 40% recycled wood with a polymer binder. It's pretty good, though expensive at about US$170/kg retail. It handles like wood when printed.

[Jason Hilton]

2 to 5 k will get you a pretty good import way better then a gf. They will run all day and not have to stop every 10 min's to cool off, they will have a bigger bed size and won't be dependent on a internet connection

As long as you're fine with tinkering endlessly to keep it working yes. Again, not target market.

[Jerome Stanek]

[QUOTE=Jason Hilton;2560274]As long as you're fine with tinkering endlessly to keep it working yes. Again, not target market.[/QUOT

What makes you think that Glowforge will not take a lot of tinkering

[Doug Griffith]

Trinius has the potential to be an epic Kickstarter fail. We'll see. In order to make the July/Aug shipping deadline they would already have to be tooled, have test jigs for the electronics, components sourced and packaging designed. They claimed the first public beta releases a couple of weeks ago.

Laywoo-D3 is a filament that comprises about 40% recycled wood with a polymer binder. It's pretty good, though expensive at about US$170/kg retail. It handles like wood when printed.

How much margin can there be in a 300 dollar device that they are outsourcing production on? That alone looks like a recipe for failure. Also, I don't see any tooling required for their design that would have long lead times. Everything is fabricated but that adds to manufacturing cost.

[Jason Hilton]

[QUOTE=Jason Hilton;2560274]As long as you're fine with tinkering endlessly to keep it working yes. Again, not target market.[/QUOT

What makes you think that Glowforge will not take a lot of tinkering

I don't know either way, but considering the current public beta users experience with the Glowforge out there I'd say the likely-hood is low, while the efforts to use and maintain cheap Chinese machines is well documented.

[Bert Kemp]

2 Things
1. I've had my cheap POS Chinese for almost 2 years now and have had to do nothing but clean lens and mirrors and oil the rails which you will have to do on a GF.
2. Where has anything been documented about current GF beta users. As far a I remember only one has been delivered and and has been in use for what a month or 2. Wow that tells us a lot they can run for a month a couple hours a day maybe.


[QUOTE=Jerome Stanek;2560292]

I don't know either way, but considering the current public beta users experience with the Glowforge out there I'd say the likely-hood is low, while the efforts to use and maintain cheap Chinese machines is well documented.

[Matt McCoy]

2 Things
1. I've had my cheap POS Chinese for almost 2 years now and have had to do nothing but clean lens and mirrors and oil the rails which you will have to do on a GF.
2. Where has anything been documented about current GF beta users. As far a I remember only one has been delivered and and has been in use for what a month or 2. Wow that tells us a lot they can run for a month a couple hours a day maybe.



1) In all fairness, the numerous help threads you have started over the years don't seem to be about cleaning lenses, mirrors, and oiling the rails.

2) I recall seeing that GF is now allowing Beta testers to post their experiences on the owner's forum. Testers had to agree to a NDA, so your statement that you can only remember one unit being delivered is probably not accurate. The demo machines will also be available all-day at the upcoming Maker Faire (and a few other public events), so I don't think it is reasonable to assume a GF (Basic or Pro) can only be used a couple hours a day.

One of the features mentioned is the sealed lens, which will not require cleaning, and the self-aligning mirrors. Scan through some of the FB groups to get an idea of the frustration of K40 owners to align their machine.

[Bert Kemp]

99% of my help threads were corel related not machine problems. and the one or to machine problems I had were not really machine problems , but a problem I caused by not knowing something. Like when I said the machine wouldn't cut, it was a user error not a machine problem.:D

Sealed lens maybe but your still going to have to clean what ever is sealing the lens the clear cover. Come on be real its a laser it will require, cleaning, oiling, tube replacement, belts tightened. TINKERING in general


[QUOTE=Bert Kemp;2560331]2 Things
1. I've had my cheap POS Chinese for almost 2 years now and have had to do nothing but clean lens and mirrors and oil the rails which you will have to do on a GF.
2. Where has anything been documented about current GF beta users. As far a I remember only one has been delivered and and has been in use for what a month or 2. Wow that tells us a lot they can run for a month a couple hours a day maybe.



1) In all fairness, the numerous help threads you have started over the years don't seem to be about cleaning lenses, mirrors, and oiling the rails.

2) I recall seeing that GF is now allowing Beta testers to post their experiences on the owner's forum. Testers had to agree to a NDA, so your statement that you can only remember one unit being delivered is probably not accurate. The demo machines will also be available all-day at the upcoming Maker Faire (and a few other public events), so I don't think it is reasonable to assume a GF (Basic or Pro) can only be used a couple hours a day.

One of the features mentioned is the sealed lens, which will not require cleaning, and the self-aligning mirrors. Scan through some of the FB groups to get an idea of the frustration of K40 owners to align their machine.

[Lee DeRaud]

One of the features mentioned is the sealed lens, which will not require cleaning...Does Not Compute. Whatever the lens is sealed with has to be transparent to laser wavelengths and exposed on at least one surface (on the smoky side of the beam path). So it will require cleaning even if the actual lens does not.

It's not that bad an idea, mind you, as it will be cheaper to replace in the (likely) event it gets buggered up by ham-fisted or too-infrequent cleaning. (Unless of course it's sold as a unit with the lens, rendering the whole exercise pointless.)

[Gary Hair]

I'm sure it will be self-cleaning...

[Matt McCoy]

99% of my help threads were corel related not machine problems. and the one or to machine problems I had were not really machine problems , but a problem I caused by not knowing something. Like when I said the machine wouldn't cut, it was a user error not a machine problem.:D

Sealed lens maybe but your still going to have to clean what ever is sealing the lens the clear cover. Come on be real its a laser it will require, cleaning, oiling, tube replacement, belts tightened. TINKERING in general

Bert: The sum of all the parts to make a desired end-result, quickly and easily, should be considered. Whether it is your troubles with Corel, Laser Cut, the mechanical operation of the machine, maintenance, user error, etc. The intention of the GF is to create an easier entry into creating things with a laser without a steep learning curve and the tinkering.

See below: Lee understands the purpose of this design choice.



Does Not Compute. Whatever the lens is sealed with has to be transparent to laser wavelengths and exposed on at least one surface (on the smoky side of the beam path). So it will require cleaning even if the actual lens does not.

It's not that bad an idea, mind you, as it will be cheaper to replace in the (likely) event it gets buggered up by ham-fisted or too-infrequent cleaning. (Unless of course it's sold as a unit with the lens, rendering the whole exercise pointless.)

I think you understand the intent.