Question regarding wiring.

[Kyle Costlow]

I am going to need at least two more dedicated circuits for my small shop(1 for the table saw and 1 for the dc) I will probably do 110 voltage since they are both currently wired that way and I dont know how to change it, and my dc came with a wireless starter that only has a 110v plug. I was thinking about getting a few long extension cords (50-70 ft) and running them around the perimeter of the basement ceiling and back the the main box then wiring up the circuits and popping them in. Could that work? if it could what size wire should I use(both units need a 13A cord).

[Rob Russell]

What do you mean by "wiring up the circuits and popping them in"? Using extension cords attached to circuit breakers?

FYI, this thread will probably get moved to the Workshop Forums since that's where electrical threads belong.

Rob

[Todd Bin]

Kyle, I would suggest that you get a couple of those wiring books from Home Depot or Lowes and read them carefully before you do anything.

First, make sure that your DC and Tablesaw are truely 110 V. It should be labeled on the Saw/DC and in the manual. Also find out what the current draw is becasue you can wire 110V with either a 15A breaker or a 20A breaker. One is just as easy/difficult as the other.

If it is 15A then you need 14/2 Romex (or other brand) If it is 20A then you need 12/2 Romex (or other brand). You will also need two breakers for your breaker box, two retrofit outlet boxes (The blue ones with the dog ears) and two outlets (either 15A or 20A depending on what you need from above). If/When you install the breakers don't forget to TURN OFF the main breaker.

I hope you see that there are a few technical things to consider here. It is not difficult but it is a little time consuming. This is why electricians are called.

I would (under no circumstances) use an extension cord as you described above.

Hope this is helpful.

Note: I am not an electricial so you should consult with your local inspector.

[Kyle Costlow]

Since I am probably way off, here is my situation.
My shop area is about 55 feet from the breaker box in my basement. It has no dedicated breakers. It has one that shares with all the other basement outlets, and one that shares with the basement lights and kitchen lights. only suitable for smaller stuff. I need to power my 1hp table saw, and my 2 hp dust collector, both are wired for 110v. I might also need a dedicated line for my miter saw and air compressor(small tool shop brand one)(i think these can share with the other outlets, but you tell me)
What is the best way to do this? It doesn't need to look nice or anything as its an unfinished messy basement.
I'm just looking for general advice/how to info, I know someone who can help me install this if it seems to much for me to do on my own.

[Rob Russell]

Kyle,

Assuming you have the space to do so in your panelboard, I would add (3) new 120V/20A circuits:

a dedicated circuit for your dust collector
a dedicated circuit for your compressor
a general purpose circuit for your saw and anything else you want to run.You can run these with #12 NM cable (aka Romex). The NM needs to be "protected from damage" where it runs down walls. There are multiple ways to do that.

The circuits must be GFCI-protected. The cheapest way to do that is to buy 20A GFCI receptacles, make those the first in any of the circuits. When wired properly, those GFCI receptacles will protect everything down-circuit from them.

I haven't priced a 250' coil of 12/2 NM recently, but you should be able to purchase all the materials for the (3) circuits for $200 or less.

(1) coil of 12/2 NM
(3) 20A single pole circuit breakers
(3) 20A GFCI receptacles
Also: boxes, additional receptacles and cover plates (the GFCI receptacles will come with plates), NM cable staples, NM cable clamps (for where the NM goes into the panelboard), wire nuts, possibly conduit to sleeve the NM where it runs down the wall if that's you you protect it.

Hope this helps.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

[Tim Thomas]

Kyle, I just put a sub panel in my garage shop last weekend to give myself some additional circuits and keep my tools electrical needs separate from my lighting and air filtration. (I can cut power to the sub panel which prevents any machines from running, but the lights will work and I can leave my air filtration running on a timer.) I did some minor electrical work in college, but I really think this is a project that just about anybody could do if they take their time and work safe. I highly recommend that you purchase the Black & Decker Advanced Home Wiring book. It is available for less than $15 at most any book store or home center and is a great resource for anyone who wants to do some electrical work. Lots of pictures, easy to understand instructions and plenty of worksheets/formulas for helping you figure out exactly what your electrical needs will be. You may be able to get away with just adding some circuits to the existing electrical panel, or you may want to go with the sub panel, but either way, this book would be a great help to you.

Here is a link to the book on Amazon, but like I said, you should be able to find it locally for about the same price:
http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Home-Wiring-Black-Decker/dp/0865737193/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204207173&sr=1-6

[Rob Will]

Kyle,

I would install a sub panel in the shop area. That way you only have to run one circuit from the main panel.

(I just added a 100A sub panel for the second floor of my house, also have a sub panel in the wood shop, and another in the barn)

This will require 4 conductors from your main panel - 2 hot wires, 1 grounded conductor (neutral), and one equipment ground.

For individual wires you can run PVC conduit along the ceiling joists, or if you can run the wire in a protected location, 4 conductor romex would work.

This is no big deal to do but you may want to get an electrician.

Rob

[Joe D'Attilio]

I highly recommend that you purchase the Black & Decker Advanced Home Wiring book.
Here is a link to the book on Amazon, but like I said, you should be able to find it locally for about the same price:
http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Home-Wiring-Black-Decker/dp/0865737193/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204207173&sr=1-6
HI Kyle,

I have just tackled my first electrical project, adding a 2 gang receptacle. Tonight i'm adding 2 shop lights abnd consolidating the basement lighting to 2 breakers; which is now taking up about 5.

I just p/u the B & D Advanced Wiring book and I will elt you know how it is as I'm as novice as they come with electrical.
( I will tell you that it's becoming an obsession for me, now I want to rewire the whole house...I think with all the wires and volts and amps, the bug is coming back that bit me and fueled my car audio obsession between 15-23 yo .)

[Von Bickley]

Kyle,


The circuits must be GFCI-protected. The cheapest way to do that is to buy 20A GFCI receptacles, make those the first in any of the circuits. When wired properly, those GFCI receptacles will protect everything down-circuit from them.


Hope this helps.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician


The GFCI circuits may not be required. Depends on where you live and the local codes. In my shop, no GFCI receptacles are required because all outlets are designated for woodworking.
In our county, refrigerators and washing machines are not required to have GFCI protection because they are designated appliances. All other receptacles in a kitchen, bathroom or outside area require GFCI protection.
Check with your local inspector.....

[Chris Padilla]

Von,

As you probably know the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in your local area always overrules the more general NEC code.

However, I think it is generally a GOOD IDEA to GFCI protect circuits in areas like garages, unfinished basements, and of course, wet areas.

[Kyle Costlow]

I like the idea of running one cable from the main panel to a sub panel. I've done some looking around and I think I have found what I need.
Sub panel 100AMP;
Could this work?
http://www.amazon.com/YOUR-SOURCE-SQUARE-MAIN-CENTER/dp/B000H5WN4Y/ref=sr_1_49?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1204246750&sr=1-49
If not can someone show me what I need(something affordable...)
I'll need a 100AMP 240v breaker;
http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-pole-100-amp-breaker/dp/B00002N5HH/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1204246651&sr=1-5
A few 20 amp breakers;
http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-single-pole-amp-breaker/dp/B00002N7KW/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1204246585&sr=1-10
And the GFCI outlets;
http://www.amazon.com/Ground-Fault-Interupter-GFCI-White/dp/B0003S1TDQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1204246965&sr=1-1
I assume I'll need to enclose the wire coming down the wall and the outlets, are those material available at most hardware stores?
For the 100AMP breaker, what kind of romex do I need? I know that I need 12/2 for the 20 amp breakers.
If anyone has better suggestions, I am all ears:D
Thanks,
Kyle

[david hines]

I just finished running 2 circuits to my garage 20 amp 12-2 nmb. I went with 110 because of the cost of breakers for my main panel . The cost is as follows, 250 12-2 $65.00---2 breakers 25.00---3 20 amp outlets,covers,boxes and staples for wire 25.00 and if you dont have one 20.00 for fish tape for a grand total of 145.00. i have an old wadsworth breaker box so the 220 ,20 amp breakers were a deal killer. I looked into a subpanel for the attached garage but the price for the parts was out of my budget . I figured 500.00 for that . the subpanel would have allowed for more power for future tools .what tools are in your future?

[Eric Haycraft]

I would look for an 8 slot 100 amp panel. The one you selected has a cover and I think is intended for outdoor use. I picked up my panel for like 20 bucks. Keep in mind that the brand on the panel must match the brand of breakers. I usually go with square D and square d seems to have good availability in home centers, but I would suggest you try to stay with whatever brand the house currently has.
Keep in mind that the panel is rated at 100 maximum amps..but you don't need to wire it for 100 amps. 50 or 60 will probably be more than sufficient in a basement shop. You therefore would need smaller wire to run from the main panel to the subpanel and a smaller breaker.

[Bryan Berguson]

Kyle,

Electricity isn't rocket science but it can still be confusing to do it right if you never worked with it before (as you can see already :) ). Bad case, something doesn't work right, worst case, you could get hurt or burn your house down. Don't go poking around in your panel without knowing what you are doing. There is a lot of juice in there.:eek:

Some of the best advice you could get for this would be to find a local electrical supply store. They will know exactly what you need and should have it in stock. Heck, you might even befriend one of them and they might offer to give you hand or know somebody who would help you just to "keep you out of trouble".

Another good source of guys that know their stuff and are usually willing to help - your local electric company. If you know somebody that works there - or even know somebody that knows somebody - you might find a guy who can do this stuff in their sleep and would gladly give you a hand. I work for a utility - any one of our guys would go out of their way to help somebody like you out. I suspect they are the same across the country.

Bryan

[Kyle Costlow]

I have decided to use a 50 amp breaker instead of a 100amp. I will only use my dc and my table saw/miter saw, or router, at the same time, so I think 50 is more than enough. What kind of wire do I need to get(I am trying to get it all priced in my head)
Thanks,
Kyle

[Rob Russell]

For a 240v/50A subpanel, #6 NM cable is fine. You need 6/3-NM, which gives you 3 insulated conductors - black, red, white plus the uninsulated bare copper equipment grounding conductor.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

[Gary Lange]

Thinks about down the road when you want more power I would run a separate 100amp service to your workshop and then run your circuits for the shop off this. It is easier to do it big the first time and have all you will need then to have to go back and do it again because your needs have increased. It is the old measure twice and cut once deal. It will cost no more or maybe only a little more to run the 100amp service over the 50amp service.

[Rob Russell]

The biggest difference with the 100 amp subpanel is that the conductors have to be a lot larger. I checked prices on stuff recently though, and it was cheaper to run the aluminum conductors that you'd want to use for a 100 amp panel than it was to run copper for a 60 amp panel.

[Kyle Costlow]

What kind of wire does the 100 amp breaker need. I have to run about 60-75 feet of it and the 6/3 stuff is expensive enough.... I wont be living in my parents house forever so I think 50 amps will do for now, when I get my own house, I might get a 200 amp panel for the shop:D

Question.. Does the panel rating mean that it can supply that much amperage at the same time?

[Kyle Costlow]

The biggest difference with the 100 amp subpanel is that the conductors have to be a lot larger. I checked prices on stuff recently though, and it was cheaper to run the aluminum conductors that you'd want to use for a 100 amp panel than it was to run copper for a 60 amp panel.
(wow you really know your stuff)
Can you explain what I would need for the 100 amp panel(I was thinking of using a 100 amp panel fed by a 50 amp breaker.) Whats the most cost effective way, while remaining safe?

[Rob Russell]

Kyle,

Unless you really need 100 amps @ 240v, I wouldn't recommend trying to put in a 100A circuit. The conductors you'd need are big and stiff to work with.

If you really want to put in something that will give you all the capacity you're ever likely to need, put in a 60 or 75 amp subpanel. Run #2 aluminum SER. The #2 aluminum SER is good for 75 amps. At the local Home Depot, it's $1.92/foot. FYI, the #2 SER is going to enough to work with. You'd need 1/0 aluminum SER if you wanted a 100 amp subpanel and that's just not something I'd want to work with. If I needed it, I'd run conduit and pull #3 copper or #1 aluminum individual conductors.

There are locales that will allow you to use the #2 SER for a 100 amp subpanel, but I personally think that's misinterpreting the code. It's their call to make, though.

As a cost comparison, #6-3 copper NM cable is only good for 55 amps and costs $2.62/foot because copper has gone up so much.

Anyway - as I said above in this post - if you really want the juice - go with the #2 aluminum SER and either a 60 or 75 amp breaker. The chances of your ever needing more than 40 amps @ 240v are probably slim, but if you want the extra capacity - go for it.

You can put in a panelboard that's rated for 100 amps and only feed it with 60 or 75 amps - that's fine.

Make sure that you get a panelboard with an isolated neutral. I'd also recommend having neutral and equipment grounding conductor rails on both sides - it makes the wiring easier to keep neat.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

[Joe D'Attilio]

Kyle,

Unless you really need 100 amps @ 240v, I wouldn't recommend trying to put in a 100A circuit. The conductors you'd need are big and stiff to work with. etc....

Rob, can you just come over sometime? :D

[Rob Russell]

Rob, can you just come over sometime? :D

Sure - put up some great food, super wine - I'll bring the wife so she's happy too.

Only thing is ... I can't do wiring in your house ... just watch. :D