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Matt Haymond
06-03-2008, 6:17 AM
Hey everyone!

I have been thinking about getting a laser for ages now and I am just looking into what laser i will get.

What I will be using it for:
- Engraving coated aluminiums
- Engraving Wine bottles and drink glasses
- Wooden + Acrylic Plaques
Basically promotional gift items as well as some awards

I have looked around there are only 3 laser companies around where I live, so id like to stick to those:
- Epilog
- ULS
- Xenetec

For what Im doing, I dont think i need anything too powerful, so these are the lasers i have chosen (well that I have to chose between):
- Epilog Mini 18x12 - 25 Watt (includes 2yr warranty, rotary)
- ULS Versalaser VLS3.50 30 Watt (cheaper than the epilog, +$1325 for the rotary - still cheaper with this added, 1yr warranty)
- I dont know about the Xenetecs, they are about 50% more expensive than the Epilog or the ULS.

Both the ULS and Epilog dealers are pretty close (about 1hr away)

Let me know what you think

Mike Null
06-03-2008, 6:57 AM
There has been reams of info on all laser brands on the forum.

I suggest you do a search and plan to sit back and do a lot of reading.

David Fairfield
06-03-2008, 7:55 AM
Big fan of the Epilog here, but not the rotary attachment. It works well on large heavy cylindrical objects like wine bottles but not small, lightweight tapered items like wine and liqueur glasses. Suggest asking for demos with a couple of test glasses.

Dave

George Elston
06-03-2008, 9:48 AM
Get some demos, and take your own stuff to be engraved, don't just watch what the machine does well. I have a versalaser 30 wt and love it and the support. Rotary attachment works great. But you will have to make up your own mind for your own work. At times I wish I had gotten an epilog, but not often. I do wish I had gotten a bigger bed and more power, but there are budget constraints. The ULS VL does 95% of everything I need. Read all you can here and then get demos with your own material, good luck.

Vicky Orsini
06-03-2008, 10:22 AM
I agree with the others. Get demos on the items you intend to laser, not on the stock they provide. In the end, all machines will do the same job, more or less. It's your relationship with your service people that will make the difference. If possible, talk to other people who have bought lasers from both of these reps and ask them how they've been treated after the sale. You'd be amazed how the tune changes once the machine is delivered!

Scott Shepherd
06-03-2008, 10:26 AM
Agree, get demos with your ideas, not their canned demos. Also agree, I wouldn't limit my buying experience to people within driving distance. Sales reps are generally sales reps and when you have an issue, you'll probably never dial their number, you'll dial the factory support number. To be brutually honest, most of the sales reps, with some exceptions, are not very well versed in technical issues. If you ever want to test your rep, get them to draw something in Corel for you and pay attention. If they can't find buttons then chances of them helping you with an issue are slim.

My guess is 95% of all issues are solved by the Tech Support crew, rather than your sales rep, so proximity probably isn't as important as it would appear.

Matt Haymond
06-03-2008, 10:36 AM
I have gotten a demo from both the ULS and Epilog people, i brought my own materials and did pretty much the same thing from both people. I was satisfied with both.

I am leaning towards the Versalaser for a few reasons:
1. Larger table size + Wattage for a bit cheaper (although a smaller height - 4" vs. 6" and 1 less year of warranty) - mainly the larger table size
2. When printing, you can click on the image on the screen and it will show you that point on the laser. Some of you know what i am talking about. There are workarounds for the epilog, but it is time consuming
3. The rotary looks and felt more "solid". It does a better job (imho) than the epilog at rotary engraving

I mean, they were both good people (well...groups of people). I would really buy from either. I do know people who have an epilog and have a good relationship with them, but thats about it.

What are the chances of bargaining with these people, like getting the rotary or an extra year of warranty included?

Rodne Gold
06-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Take the one with the longest warrantee - make sure it covers the tube
A 6 month warrantee on tube and a 2 yr on machine is relatively useless.
The one with the longest warantee on the tube will be best.

Jeanette Brewer
06-03-2008, 12:59 PM
Matt,

If I've overlooked the info in your previous postings, forgive me but in what part of the country (world?) are you located?

Armed with that info, I could probably tell you how much of a chance you might have to bargain with your Epilog distributor (and/or Xenetech, if that's still a consideration).

On any given day, there is probably an Epilog representative/distributor working a trade show. Most Epilog distributors (if they haven't already quoted their bottom-dollar price) can be talked into writing up your order around a show special being offered by the manufacturer.

HTH.

Matt Haymond
06-03-2008, 5:34 PM
I am from Sydney, Australia.

This is what ULS said about the warranty:
"For warranty, it is parts and labour for 12 months. Consumables (mirrors, bearings, belts, lenses) are only included if they are faulty, and it is rare except for mis-use that they would need replacing. "

This is all I have from the epilog people:
"24 Months Parts & Labour warranty"

Peck Sidara
06-03-2008, 6:35 PM
"24 Months Parts & Labour warranty"

That statement is all inclusive.

Rodne Gold
06-04-2008, 2:49 AM
Go with Peck.............
24 months bumper to bumper is good.

Keith Outten
06-04-2008, 6:18 AM
Matt,

I suggest that you also take a look at Trotec. Adding another manufacturer to your list will broaden your research and give you more information.

Xenetech has at least two bugs in their print driver, it hasn't been fixed in over 18 months that I know of so beware. I use an XLT1325-60 every day at CNU...great hardware with a lousy print driver. After a year and a half waiting for a bug fix promised by Xenetech's President we feel like we have been abandoned and for a machine that cost over $35,000 the Commonwealth of Virginia deserves a bug free driver.

Never buy a machine based on the company name alone, you need to research the model you are interested in purchasing. Some models are problematic and have horrible track records while others from the same manufacturer are rock solid. My personal machine is an ancient Epilog Legend Model 24 that is a solid machine, this is useless information since you can't buy this model anymore but Epilog does have first class tech support, at least in my case. The only negative is the CO2 tube had to be replaced at approximately 500 hours, outside of the one year warranty. My Legend 24 feels like an old shoe, it is comfortable to use and reliable, I hate to think about having to replace it in the future.

Never purchase a laser engraver that doesn't have a Corel Draw driver. Using a manufacturers proprietary software, even if it works well, could end up being a trap. Imagine after five years and thousands of engraving files you can't purchase from another manufacturer because your archives will be useless. Make sure your engraving files are based on a standard, otherwise you may very well cry a river of tears.

Ask about CO2 Tube replacement costs. They don't last near as long as you think.
Ask about CO2 Tube replacement costs. They don't last near as long as you think.
Ask about CO2 Tube replacement costs. They don't last near as long as you think.
Ask about CO2 Tube replacement costs. They don't last near as long as you think.

Did I mention that you should ask about CO2 Tube replacement costs?

I recommend that you get a pencil and paper, make a list of manufacturers and model numbers. Then start looking at threads in this Forum one page at a time. Make a check mark next to every machine that receives a positive comment and make an "X" next to those who receive a negative comment. It won't take long before you start seeing a pattern concerning certain models....especially the failures. You won't find a better resource for the real facts than right here in this Forum. Our Laser Engraving archives are our "Jewel of The Nile".

Because I am the owner/administrator of this Forum people call me. I have received hundreds of phone calls from people asking for advice over the last few years. Not that I am an expert mind you but until recently I was the only Moderator in the Laser Engraving Forum and people know I read every post. I also receive the benefit of hearing their complaints and some comments they would never make publicly....and I have to admit I have made phone calls to manufacturers on several occasions trying to assist people resolving problems with "LEMONS" for want of a better term. Today there are many people here whose experience exceeds mine many times over. Listen to them once you determine who they are.

My 2 Cents

Mike Null
06-04-2008, 7:10 AM
I'll second Keith's suggestion to have a look at Trotec. Mine's two years old this month and I haven't had one minute of down time. Tech support has been great for those times when the operator can't seem to solve the puzzle.

Not only do you have tech support in the US but also on call in Austria.

Scott Shepherd
06-04-2008, 8:31 AM
If you want a 2 year warranty, then ask all manufacturers for it when you negotiate. I'm with Mike, like his Trotec, my ULS has been flawless and I can't tell you about Tech Support because they haven't had to send me any part because my machine just runs. It's great to say how awesome tech support is, but if you're calling them, then something failed (unless it's a technical question and not a bad part). If something failed, is it as good as you thought it was? Surely there will be failures with any machines, but I think it's very easy to read post after post saying how great tech support is. My belief is we shouldn't have to be using tech support over and over and over.

It's great when you need it, and it's something you should have, but in the end, my opinion is that you shouldn't have to use it in those first 12-24 months.

Dee Gallo
06-04-2008, 9:08 AM
Scott is right, of course, nobody wants to call tech support because of a problem. BUT- I have purchased 2 different used lasers and each time tech support has helped me get them set up and running. The first time I didn't have a clue about what to do, since the laser was a totally new machine to me and I didn't even know what the question was no less the answer. Peck save my bacon back then and was extremely nice. The second time, it was damaged in shipping and I needed a part replaced. I believe the peace of mind that comes with knowing you can call on someone is very valuable, even if you never use them.

My Epilog dealer Jeff Aichinger was of great help and he has an associate Bill Neal who does repairs. The 2 of them bent over backwards to help me get my act together, staying in close contact through email and phone. When you know you're not alone and lost, it really helps.

In my 4 years of running Epilogs, that's the only time I needed tech support, they run flawlessly too. The only flaw is usually operator-error... that would be me!

IMHO, dee

Matt Haymond
06-04-2008, 9:47 AM
Quick question, with the Epilogs, what is the best way to see what point is going to be engraved? Like on the versas you click on the point on the screen and the laser head will move to that point and show you with the red laser pointer, with the Epilogs, the best way that I know is to create a shape around the picture or text and vector engrave it with the top open, so that the red laser pointer can trace where the image will go.

The tube replacement for the Epilog is almost twice as much as the ULS Versalaser.

Just so you know, I have played with an Epilog 18x12 quite a few times before and am familiar with corel. I also had a play around with the versalaser when i went for the demo. So I'd like to think that I know the basics of laser engraving with both laser types. Never had experience with Trotec, they are a lot farther away, but i will give them a call. (The reason I talk about distance is because i have seen many say dont go with someone who is too far away, but i guess they mean different states/cities)

One other thing to discuss is the bed size and height. In the promotional gifts business I dont think I am going to come across many objects that require more than 4" depth (examples of what would be larger?). As for the table size, it would allow me to engrave more (maybe like 2 - 4 objects more) and the standard material sheets come in the ULS Versalasers 24"x12" size. I could also save a fair bit of money going for the smaller ULS Versalaser size (16" x 12"). Any comments.

Price is an issue for me. It is a concern for me forking out a large initial sum of money, as well as this being my part-time job, so I can only do about 15 hours a week. But as you guys (and gals) say, this is the reason you stay in business, because not many people want to spend so much on a machine.

Nancy Laird
06-04-2008, 9:52 AM
I can't speak for the Versalaser from ULS, but I do have two ULS machines. Our 20W is a 1996 (!) model, and it has been running regularly for the three years we've had it. Our only problems have been operator error - no mechanical problems at all. And it is still on the same tube that it came with in 1996. Our 40W machine was built on 2005 - we've had it nearly two years with no problems at all.

As Matt says, the tube replacement cost for a ULS machine is about half the cost of Epilog.

If you do some research on resale, you might ask why you see more ads for Epilogs than for ULS machines.

Scott Shepherd
06-04-2008, 10:02 AM
Matt, here's a review I did between the Helix and the PLS4.60 (two in the same category). I believe most of what I wrote stands true for the VersaLaser and Mini as well. I've never used either of those, but I think what I wrote isn't as model specific as it is brand specific. Pay close attention to the difference on focusing that I noted in the review, that should answer your issues about the autofocus feature.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=67576&highlight=helix+PLS4.60


Again, I don't have a Versalaser and have never run one, so maybe someone who owns one will chime in if there's something that doesn't map across to that model. Same for the Mini from Epilog.

Lee DeRaud
06-04-2008, 10:35 AM
Pay close attention to the difference on focusing that I noted in the review, that should answer your issues about the autofocus feature.The Versalaser doesn't have the sensor-based autofocus you refer to, but everything else in the review matches up.

There is a load/save feature in the printer properties dialog that lets you save/retrieve sets of power/speed/DPI/thickness settings...doesn't take long until you have a set built up for various thicknesses of common materials. Note that, for vector cutting, the speed/power settings will vary with thickness anyway, so the lack of true autofocus is much less of an issue than you'd expect. (And as I mentioned in another thread, I've noticed several reports here of problems with the mechanical-probe autofocus widgets used on other systems.)

As far as bed size goes, if you're planning on doing many multiples of the small parts, the larger table probably helps. In my case, using the smaller (12x16) VL, just about everything I've wanted to put into it that was too long was also too wide, so the 12x24 wouldn't have helped. (The tendency of material sources to sell in 12x24 is vaguely annoying to me, but you can usually buy larger pieces (eg. 24x48) that cut up into either size with no waste.)

Scott Shepherd
06-04-2008, 10:41 AM
The Versalaser doesn't have the sensor-based autofocus you refer to, but everything else in the review matches up.

Funny you mention that. I JUST figured out how that works a few weeks ago! Had the machine for 9 or 10 months and just figured out how it works. I kept seeing that cut on the left hand ruler and couldn't figure out what it was there for. I went back and read the manual again and had a Homer Simpson moment when it pointed me to a button on the control panel for autofocus that I'd never used. Considering it's the only button on the control panel that doesn't move an axis, you'd think I would have found it sooner :)

Now that I know what it is and how it works, I still haven't used it, but at least I know how it works now :) No need to use it because of the z-method you mentioned.

Matt Haymond
06-04-2008, 5:52 PM
I like the comparison!

I cant say the price, but here is what I will do to just give you an idea: (ratios - just add a couple zeros to the end and you will be about right)
1 - Versa rotary
15 - 25 Watt ULS Versalaser VLS 2.30
18 - 30 Watt ULS Versalaser VLS 3.50
20 - 25 Watt Epilog Mini (includes rotary)

There is nothing too taking in what im doing, so 25 Watt should cover it all. Advantage with going 30 Watt over 25? Bigger bed size just means that I can do more at once.

Materials: (just engraving, no cutting, except maybe some acrylic)
- Glass
- Aluminium
- Wood

Im pretty sure I will be going with the ULS Versalaser unless anything else comes up, opinions, 2.30 vs 3.50?

Mike Mackenzie
06-04-2008, 6:11 PM
Matt,

I would tell the ULS rep to include the extra year warranty. That would give you the same two year warranty. Of course I can say that because I am here in the U.S. but this would not even be a question on my end.

The cost to add in the extra warranty is under $400.00 U.S. IMHO it is nothing to add that additional year.

Also I can say from years of experience that you will probably not even need it.

Matt Haymond
06-05-2008, 9:38 AM
I just spoke to the ULS people and he says that the smaller VLS 2.30 cannot do wine bottles because it is too small, anybody had experience with this?

Guy Barone
06-05-2008, 10:50 AM
Matt,

Xenetech has at least two bugs in their print driver, it hasn't been fixed in over 18 months that I know of so beware. I use an XLT1325-60 every day at CNU...great hardware with a lousy print driver.

My 2 Cents

Dear Keith:
Concerning your comments about Xenetech lasers, I believe you've fallen short in the critique of the system's performance. We understand that our 6,000 plus customers rely on system productivity every day. The overall throughput (job layout to finished product) of Xenetech XLT lasers, factoring in the driver, is significantly better than those of its competitors. Period. We would be happy to demonstrate this on a head to head basis with any of our competitors. I hope that those shopping for a new laser system are not discouraged from testing our system in an "uncanned" demonstration based on your comments and thus short changing themselves and our talented staff at Xenetech. In addition to throughput, there are a host of productivity enhancing features in the XLT from revolutionary job preview at the touch screen to e-mail notification when a job is complete, to a lifetime motion system bearing warranty. Our list of unique features is significant.
It would not be fair if I did not mention that within our superior throughput, there is an extra step through our driver to output. If you change plate size, you must reselect your printer. As I have mentioned to you personally in the past, we're not happy with any extra steps and we working every day in development to increase our productivity lead.
I hope this perspective balances things for your readers. We always welcome your direct input and those of any of our existing or potential customers. The telephone number to my desk is 225-752-0225 x 306.
Thanks for the opportunity to comment in the forum,
Guy Barone
President, Xenetech

Scott Shepherd
06-05-2008, 11:04 AM
So Guy, when exactly can the public expect the print driver issue resolved? You mention the performance "with the driver" is still at the top of the list. That comment tells me that you do not believe the driver issue is a serious one.

Thanks for the insight into how your companies thought process for dealing with issues works. Apparently if it's a problem, but doesn't significantly affect performance, then it's not worthy of fixing.

Keith Outten
06-05-2008, 12:34 PM
Mr. Barone,

Welcome to SawMill Creek, we are fortunate to have you participate here.

I personally can attest to the top notch quality of your hardware based on my experience with an XLT1325 machine and I appreciate that there are extra features that many may feel would benefit their businesses.

My issue, as you know, is with the print driver and is twofold. Having to select another printer then switch back to the Xenetech print driver every time a change is made to the drawing size is a nuisance that a machine of this caliber should never have. This is the kind of problem I would expect on one of the newer Chinese machines that are unproven technology just entering the North American marketplace.

The second problem is your print driver does not allow an operator to force internal vector cutting before external cuts are made. Case in point, it is impossible per your staff, to have the interior of the number zero cut before it cuts the exterior line. Since I vector cut letters and numbers for ADA signs I lose a very high percentage of the following characters when they drop down before the interior of the character is cut.

0, 4, 6, 8, 9, A, B, D, O, P, Q and R

This is a very basic feature that exists in every laser engraver I know of, it is a must have for even a bare bones machine. I confirmed this bug and the one above on the phone with your tech support staff and with Roy Brewer in another thread here in our Laser Engraving Forum.

Many laser manufacturers continue to provide new drivers with improvements for their machines, you have not been able to correct this issue in over 18 months. I know we discussed this on the phone but these are the kinds of things that someone who makes their living with these machines would consider important, not just the nuisance issue but the lack of software support over a reasonable amount of time.

I'm sorry if we seem to be disconnected on these issues, we obviously don't agree on their severity. You have a great machine, please correct the problems with your print driver.

.

Lee DeRaud
06-05-2008, 2:53 PM
I just spoke to the ULS people and he says that the smaller VLS 2.30 cannot do wine bottles because it is too small, anybody had experience with this?Sounds right: the limiting factor is length, since the rotary holds objects from the ends. Looking at the picture, the fixture has some pretty beefy "works", probably 2"-3" worth at each end. That only leaves you 10"-12" of usable length and most wine bottles run at least that.

Rodne Gold
06-06-2008, 3:01 AM
Keith , can't you just change the colour of the vector line , surely the machine has some order in which it engraves or vectors colours?
Like it does clack first , then red etc.
Even tho my laser has this inside out optimisation , we always make sure the inside holes are a different colour to outsides and that they will be done first.

Keith Outten
06-06-2008, 6:48 AM
Rodne,

The truth is I don't know. The techs at Xenetech told me their driver wouldn't do it so I gave up...but I will do some checking to see if it is possible.

.

Richard Rumancik
06-06-2008, 12:08 PM
Keith, Rodne suggested using colors to control cutting sequence. The other way I normally use to control sequence is using the "front to back" order. My driver cuts "back" features first so if the inside shapes are moved to the back they would be cut first. Does this situation apply to the Xenetech? I would have thought that either color or "order" should work.

As a last resort I suppose layer control might be used. Not very nice to put centers of characters on a different layer than the outlines but it would work with mine; again, don't know about the Xenetech. (I would drag the layer name up or down in the layer list to control when that layer cuts.) This is not the nicest fix but could be a work-around if the above two fail.

Mark Winlund
06-06-2008, 1:23 PM
I would like to say that, over the years, Xenetech has been very supportive of their products. I have been a customer of theirs since their "Tuesday" software (a long time ago!). I also have 3 of their control systems. When we had problems, they were there to resolve them. I can remember spending many hours on the phone with their programmer, going over problems in the basic software (I think her name was Eileen).

Each customer wants to see certain features in the software, and they all have different priorities. It can be difficult to make a profit if the software is constantly being modified to be everything to all people. Their engraving software has certain quirks, and lots of outdated file conversions. You just learn to work around them.

Mark

(started with radio shack model 4's running Dahlgren S-100 bus computers. Now that was an exercise in frustration!)

Guy Barone
06-06-2008, 1:33 PM
Keith, thanks again for the welcome and opportunity to participate.

Ironically, I received an unsolicited email yesterday pertinent to the thread. It was directed to our distributor in the Southeast U.S., but I called the customer and received permission for us to post it. He has our laser and our rotary system and told our distributor that he sold his old (our competitor’s) equipment.

“Things are good. I like both of the (Xenetech) machines I bought from you. The time they save us is unreal. I never would have dreamed they would save as much time and work as they do. Even after being in this business for 25 years, I never would have dreamed it.”

- Robert Smith
Awards To Remember
Ohatchee, AL

As a follow up to my last post, we are focused on reducing any and all extra or non-productive steps and the goal is maximizing throughput. The print driver is part of our process and we have and will continue to commit significant resources to continually improving. These improvements roll out of our development area on a monthly sometimes weekly basis (by the way, let me encourage Xenetech owners to visit our website often for free firmware and software updates www.xenetech.com. Our new VCS free update provides a host of productivity-enhancing features).

To date, I believe the discussion is totally focused on one portion or leg of the entire engraving process. Again, the true benefit of Xenetech equipment is the overall productivity it affords customers. Let me use an analogy of the triathlon participant. The guy who wins the gold medal is the guy who finished the entire race with the best time. This gold medal winner may have the worst time in the swimming portion of the race but he can halve the time of others on the cycling leg. Will the spectators say, “it is nice that he got the gold medal, but he really didn’t win because his swimming time was poor?” At worst they will say in spite of a poor swimming time, he is the winner.

To carry this analogy even further, I’m sure this guy is also going to work on anything that will improve his time, especially swimming. As pointed out we’re doing the same, and although not talked about, I’m sure our competitors are trying to work on their weak spots and catch up with our productivity.

All we ask for is an equal opportunity to show prospective engraving equipment buyers how our systems work.

I'll pass the vector cut order question on to our customer service guys...Thanks again, Guy

Guy Barone
06-06-2008, 2:06 PM
Keith, thanks again for the welcome and opportunity to participate.

Ironically, I received an unsolicited email yesterday pertinent to the thread. It was directed to our distributor in the Southeast U.S., but I called the customer and received permission for us to post it. He has our laser and our rotary system and told our distributor that he sold his old (our competitor’s) equipment.

“Things are good. I like both of the (Xenetech) machines I bought from you. The time they save us is unreal. I never would have dreamed they would save as much time and work as they do. Even after being in this business for 25 years, I never would have dreamed it.”

- Robert Smith
Awards To Remember
Ohatchee, AL

As a follow up to my last post, we are focused on reducing any and all extra or non-productive steps and the goal is maximizing throughput. The print driver is part of our process and we have and will continue to commit significant resources to continually improving. These improvements roll out of our development area on a monthly sometimes weekly basis (by the way, let me encourage Xenetech owners to visit our website often for free firmware and software updates. Our new VCS free update provides a host of productivity-enhancing features).

To date, I believe the discussion is totally focused on one portion or leg of the entire engraving process. Again, the true benefit of Xenetech equipment is the overall productivity it affords customers. Let me use an analogy of the triathlon participant. The guy who wins the gold medal is the guy who finished the entire race with the best time. This gold medal winner may have the worst time in the swimming portion of the race but he can halve the time of others on the cycling leg. Will the spectators say, “it is nice that he got the gold medal, but he really didn’t win because his swimming time was poor?” At worst they will say in spite of a poor swimming time, he is the winner.

To carry this analogy even further, I’m sure this guy is also going to work on anything that will improve his time, especially swimming. As pointed out we’re doing the same, and although not talked about, I’m sure our competitors are trying to work on their weak spots and catch up with our productivity.

All we ask for is an equal opportunity to show prospective engraving equipment buyers how our systems work.

I'll forward the question on vector cut order to our customer service guys...Thanks again, Guy

Scott Shepherd
06-06-2008, 2:48 PM
Wow, thanks for more insight Guy. Let me use an analogy for you. Just because you make a race car, and it's a fast race car, if the driver's side door handle doesn't work and I have to get in the passenger door every time I want to drive it, does that mean I can still go around and brag that I have the fastest car out there?

Really?

Wow.

So basically it's what I said before, there's no date on resolving the problem, and the answer is always "The user needs to put up with the small issues because our machine, once running, is the fastest". Let me explain something- the clock on a job doesn't start when I press the laser's button, and if I have to spend more billable time preparing the files, then it doesn't matter. If I have a 1 piece job, and it takes me 3 more minutes to break the text into curves and then change those internal letters into different colors so I can burn them using a different color, then the 15 seconds I saved by having a lightening fast machine is somehow supposed to add up? I calculate that into a 2 minute 45 second deficit of billable time.

18 months and no solution or suggestion of a solution in the near future. I think that speaks volumes about how you treat your customers problems. You can brag about the speed and quality all day, but if you make my life a pain in preparing the work for your rocket ship of a machine, I won't use it. It's not about the machine, it's about the user AND the machine, which is apparently what you're missing.

Guy Barone
06-06-2008, 3:16 PM
Scott, If your experience with our laser system has been different from the customer I quoted earlier, we certainly want to help you. All of my references did refer to the entire process, not just actual engraving time.
Again, we'll will be glad to run tests with any of our competitors over the entire process. I hope this helps,
Guy

Scott Shepherd
06-06-2008, 3:40 PM
Guy, I asked 2 times now and you have yet to answer the question. I'll ask one more time. When will Keith's issues with the driver be resolved? Keeping in mind, it's not just Keith who has a driver problem, but many others.

When can your current customers expect their driver issues to be resolved? 18 months to fix a driver issue seems unacceptable, whether it's the best, fastest, highest priced or whatever the claim may be.

As a consumer, service is a major factor in the decision making process for most buying a laser. Seeing issues open for 18 months causes many to look right over your product, whether it's the fastest or not.

So, when can Keith and CNU expect to have their issue resolved?

Guy Barone
06-06-2008, 4:24 PM
Scott, You may have a future at CNN or FoxNews.;)
The great news about this forum is that everyone has a right to an opinion. If you read my two posts I believe I've answered your question. Let me try a third time...Xenetech is the most productive system available today and I'm referring to layout to engraving time. In spite of that, if there are any extra steps in any parts of our individual processes, we have and will continue to attack those. An extra click with print preview in the laser driver, new features in XGW, and enhanced VCS communication features are great opportunities for us to get even more productive. I'm not going to publicly discuss specific R&D priorities to enhance our productivity lead (I sent you a private message offering to discuss more with you). Nor would I expect our competitors to answer questions concerning when they will improve certain performance aspects of their systems to catch Xenetech (you might want to ask?).
At the end of the day, we've got a very talented dedicated staff here. They are working each day, developing innovative products, and helping customers succeed. That's why when we receive e-mails from Xenetech laser users, like the one I shared earlier, it clearly and independently confirms we're on the right track. Are we content...no way...we want to achieve much more for our customers and our satisfaction.
Again, if you or any Xenetech customer, laser or rotary, needs help in achieving this kind of result, we stand ready to help.
Thanks, Guy

Scott Shepherd
06-06-2008, 5:16 PM
Thanks for the reply, even if that means we still have no date on when your current customers will have their problems solved.

I honestly sit here with my jaw dropped open in your attitude. Every single answer is "our machine is the best and that trumps anything anyone would say about any minor issues". I find it off putting that you think posting 1 email saying how productive your machines are is supposed to convince everyone that your opinion is correct. Do you not think that Epilog can pull out a customer letter (or 100's) or do you not think Universal or Trotec can produce "Happy Customer" letters?

Guy, come on, you can't be serious. It's not about how you treat your happy customers that makes your reputation. It's about how you respond to people when they have issues that makes your reputation, and frankly, Xenetech has earned a reputation of having excellent machines, but very non-responsive to bugs and issues. That's not my opinion, that's your company's reputation. Read this forum, search for Xenetech. Go to other forums. That's your reputation. Saying it's not true 3 times in a row doesn't make it change.

However, resolving issues in a reasonable amount of time and not telling your customers that their issues are so minor that you can't be bothered to allocate resources to it is a sure way to earn a bad reputation.

Keith Outten
06-06-2008, 9:25 PM
Guy,

Here is an excerpt from another thread dated Febuary 9th, 2008 where we were discussing this same issue. Note Roy Brewer's response below in green text and that he didn't have a suggestion for the vector cutting problem. I might remind you that we received our XLT1325 in December of 2006 and it was installed by our Xenetech distributor after the holidays in early January 2007. This bug has been around for a long time. I am willing to concede that your hardware is top notch, incredibly fast and amazingly accurate but the hardware and software work as a team with these machines. You can't judge one without the other.

Roy,

Are you aware of the bug Xenetech has in their print driver?
We purchased an XLT-1325-60 about a year ago at Christopher Newport University and the tech that installed our machine found the print bug when they installed our machine. I have discussed this many times with the Xenetech tech support people and their President and we were promised a driver update in March of 2007....haven't seen it yet.

Every time I change the drawing size I have to switch to another printer and then back to the Xemetech to get the drawing size to change. It's not major but it is a pain, for $35,000 you would think we should have received a print driver that works properly. I have given up on ever receiving a print driver from Xenetech that works with Windows XP and Corel Draw.

There is a second flaw in their driver that is so basic I can't believe they can't fix it, the laser will vector cut outside before it cuts inside shapes. When I cut letters and numbers for ADA signs I lose a considerable number because they fall down before the center is cut. I discussed this with their tech support and the answer was "We can't make our driver vector cut inside shapes first". Even my old Legend 24 will do this so it isn't anything new

Xenetech has their new Viper Suite but I think it only works with Vista. The University controls our computer upgrades and Vista has not been approved for employees to use and it could be a very long time before that happens.

Keith Outten


Keith,
}}} This is not an official response. This represents a distributor's viewpoint. {{{
I am painfully aware of the two issues you mention. In contrast to Xenetech's history, because coding of hardware drivers is such a unique programming challenge, we jobbed out the task assuming we could bring the system to the market faster (which we did). However, struggling to get the external programmers to learn what they needed to correct this has been much more annoying to Xenetech than to their users. Hence, we've gone back to our roots and started coding the driver from the ground up in-house. I do not expect this to be completed anytime in the near future.

In the meantime, let me tell you how I mitigate the annoyance. Add another Xenetech printer from the Control Panel. I name mine ~XeLaser1 and ~XeLaser2; the "~" (or something similar) will alphabetically position these at the top of your printer list (assuming you, like me, have many printers from which to select). Now after making the change in the driver settings, instead of switching to another printer & back, select the other Xe printer and you're set to Print.
__________________
Roy Brewer
Epilog/Xenetech distributor
Edit/Delete Message

Rodne Gold
06-07-2008, 5:27 AM
I also see a sort of mantra being repeated here. The e-mail published says nothing about the speed from layout to print or indeed the speed of throughput.

What really says a lot is that Roy - a distributor , and myself , not even a user , have offered some solutions to Keith's problem , whereas the president of the Co has not.

I own a few Gcc machines and dont see how much speedier the steps from layout to print can be or what features other drivers can have that would aid productivity over and above what we use. I don't put much credence in any manufacurer claiming thats theirs is the fastest and best. Could you , for example , tell me what your machine or driver offers over and above my Gcc Explorers and Spirits that would make me that much more productive?

Keith Outten
06-07-2008, 6:53 AM
I discussed this with Aaron Koehl last night and he thinks that he can develop a script that will pre-process a Corel Draw file that would move all interior vector commands to the beginning of the file and move the exterior cuts to the end of the list before it is sent to the print driver. Not knowing how the Xenetech driver will react to this approach it may or may not work so I'm not sure it is worth the investment in time to test.

Without a resolution it seems the only option open to me for the life of this machine is to use the Xenetech software to cut letters for ADA signs. I'm told that the program they ship with their machines, not the print driver, will vector cut properly. This approach means once again I must take extra steps to accomplish a daily chore and it doesn't do anything to reduce the frustration factor that must be endured for many years.

The moral of the story is that there probably won't be a fix for these two problems and I expect it affects entire line of the Xenetech laser engravers for anyone who is using Windows XP and possibly Windows 2000. Since this problem seems to have existed long before we ordered the Xenetech laser engraver I wish someone would have contacted me prior to shipping the machine to inquire about my operating system and warned me that there were issues with the print driver. Roy Brewer's comment concerning being "Painfully Aware" of these two issues leads me to believe that he may feel these are not minor problems and his disclosure that they are in the process of creating new drivers from scratch confirms my suspicion that others may feel the same as I do, that these two problems are worthy of corrective action. I haven't heard Mr Barone commit to correcting either of these issues yet, i hope that his company will be able to resolve these two bugs rather than burying their heads in the sand and waiting for everyone to upgrade to Windows Vista so the problem will just go away.

:(

Matt, I apologize if it seems that we have taken over your thread but you asked for comments about laser engravers. I honestly feel that you and many others have benefited from this exchange of comments and will have more information to digest before making a decision. Note that these things happen to almost every manufacturer at one time or another which is why it is so important to gather as much information outside of the sales arena as you can before making such a large financial investment. Print driver upgrades, not just bug fixes, are important for the life of the machine and you have to consider that you may change operating systems at least a couple times over the life of a good laser engraver. Last but not least is firmware updates which we rarely discuss here in this Forum but they can be just as important as drivers at times.

Purchasing an automobile can be a daunting task but it is a snap compared to the research and information you must gather in order to purchase the right Laser Engraver. Without a Lemon Law to protect you all you have on your side is this Forum and others like it to rely on for information and leverage. This thread has already received 1,416 views as of this morning and there will be thousands more over the next few months, the laser engraving community is watching and learning.

Mr Barone, I am deeply sorry for any problems that this thread may cause your company. You have been friendly and kind to me the times we have spoken on the phone, however I feel that enough time has elapsed to allow you to correct these issues and my reporting of the facts is accurate in this case. The facts speak for themselves and this Forum allows us to share information, good and bad, pertinent to our industry and the equipment we use to make a living. You have received valuable information from both customers and potential customers in reference to our concerns as owners and operators of laser engravers. I hope this information is received in a constructive way and your company will emerge from this exchange of information with some valuable data. I also hope you will visit with us often here to share information and use this Forum to listen to our Community of laser engravers, they posses are a wealth of information, experience and expertise that might be valuable to those who design and build the machines we purchase.

.

Guy Barone
06-07-2008, 11:48 AM
"The facts speak for themselves and this Forum allows us to share information, good and bad, pertinent to our industry and the equipment we use to make a living."

Keith, I certainly agree with the quote above. That works in all directions and I contributed in the forum based on the lack of balance of information. This has been a great opportunity for us to communicate and we've received a number of positive responses/inquiries through our website and via e-mail. I or a member of our staff, hope to contribute when we see a major void in the future.
As always, we're listening. Fact: We an institued hundreds if not thousands (not an exaggeration) of customer product suggestions over the years and we continue to allow this to drive our R&D effort every day. I won't bore you with the process, but it is extensive. Your comments have been and will be included. This is what has driven our success.

I want to leave you with the key thoughts:
1. Xenetech is about making the entire engraving process as versitile and productive as possible. I don't know that I've seen anyone objectively dispute our system's overall performance relative to competitors or take us up on my flat out offer to compete. That speaks volumes.
2. We are constantly looking and working on getting even more productive with every component of the engraving process. Logically, this would include any extra steps someone has to take within a certain leg of the overall process. Again, I encourage users to visit our website often for free firmware, software, and driver updates. In fact, several were posted in the last couple of weeks, adding new, productivity-enhancing features. One post, in fact, was an important laser driver raster/vector change relative to a Vista operating system change.
3. Xenetech is about helping customers succeed every day. Our customer service guys are folks just like you that all have real world engraving shop production experience (exceeding 100 years combined). They are here to support our thousands of customers, helping hundreds of customers via phone, fax, and e-mail every week. All on the forum should know they can contact us here at Xenetech with their questions and engraving support needs.
Thanks for the opportunity to contribute. This has been a very productive and positive effort for us.
Guy

Aleta Allen
06-07-2008, 11:58 PM
I think some great points have been made here. Having a good warranty and good tech support is important. One I have learned the hard way is service depends on the machine more then the techs. I agree, if it is a good machine, you should never need tech service. If you have never had to rely on tech support in the first few years of your laser purchase, feel good about your laser and know that you have choosen a good machine and tech support is not as important to you. But for those of us that have had to live with tech support on speed dial, tech support is very important. But even the best tech support will not replace a trouble free year and it will not replace a warranty that is backed up with a friendly, reputable company. Friendly people are not the same as a friendly company that backs up their machine and warranty.


One thing that is not mentioned is that no matter what the warranty, the time spent fighting problems with your machine, stress, fighting tech support to fix the machine and the time spent with the machine down and not working is valuable time. Most of us here have these machines as part of our business. So, no machine while being repaired, no work. Okay, you can send a tube to the factory for recharging, but, the time that tube is gone is time that you will never get back and might have to turn business away. Look at the warranties and the company and how they deal with warranty issues closely. Do they repair the machine quickly and friendly and without argueing or do they drag their feet, point fingers and make it as hard as can be for you to get service?

I think that the word service has been forgotten. What happened to the phrase, the customer is always right?

So, yes, look at the warranty adn tech support, but first, most importantly look at the machine. If the machine is good, you will not need the other two things but it is good to know it is there.

Aleta

Just my 2 cents:)

Scott Shepherd
06-08-2008, 8:53 AM
I want to leave you with the key thoughts:
1. Xenetech is about making the entire engraving process as versitile and productive as possible. I don't know that I've seen anyone objectively dispute our system's overall performance relative to competitors or take us up on my flat out offer to compete. That speaks volumes.

I haven't seen any laser manufactures willing to put their machines head to head against anyone else, so I'm not sure that speaks the volumes you believe it does.

Since no manufacturer has taken you up on the offer, I'll gladly accept your challenge. But not under your conditions, under mine. I'll do a lot of 1 piece jobs and I'll put the throughput speed of my Universal Laser from start to finish against your machine any day. Maybe I win, maybe I lose, but I'm far from intimidated by your claims.

My conditions, not yours.

Keith Outten
06-08-2008, 3:59 PM
Hey Scott,

I think I will pass on the challenge. If I have to change drawing sizes to many times I would lose the race at the starting line :)
If we were vector cutting letters or numbers half of mine would end up in the garbage can.

LOL

I hope that Guy Barone will accept your terms though, it would be interesting to see a real world challenge back up his claims.

.

Amie McGee
06-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Hi Matt,

I would be happy to put you in contact with some Trotec owners in your area if you wish. I can also arrange a demo for you as well.

Matt Haymond
06-10-2008, 6:26 AM
That would be great, please pm me!

Guy Barone
06-10-2008, 4:06 PM
Scott, We'll be glad to participate even under your tight control. Please call me directly at 225-752-0225 x306 to dictate your conditions.

It would be optimal if we can get a representative sample of typical, daily jobs. If practical, we could ask members of the forum to submit jobs. Once submitted, you and I could review the jobs and mutually pick several to run. Members of the forum would benefit most from this kind of sample and test.

We do these kinds of tests at every trade show. Potential customers bring jobs to our booth on a jump drive or CD and we run them just as someone would run them in their shop. They are able to compare and contrast performance from job layout to completion. I highly recommend that anyone considering the purchase of a laser engraver visit with the respective manufacturers, understand the benefits (strenghts and weaknesses) of the systems, and put the system to the test with jobs that represent the bulk of their current as well as prospective work.

Thanks, Guy

Scott Shepherd
06-10-2008, 8:34 PM
I'll be in touch Guy. My main concern is getting fair benchmarks where we're measuring from the same starting point. I can easily setup a video camera and capture my actions from start to finish. Not sure what you have available or are willing to do.

I'm not interested in having a bunch of people submit samples. I'm interested in some specific type jobs and we'll sort those out along with all the details over the next few days.

If Keith is willing, perhaps we can perform the tests on his machine. He's 70 miles from me and I'll gladly drive over to see him and watch him run the tests. If that's not acceptable then we'll need to work out a way to verify the start/stop times.

I'll be in touch.

I'm planning on being at the NBM show in Baltimore next week, perhaps you or your people can run my files while I'm timing them on the show floor?

Keith Outten
06-11-2008, 4:09 AM
Scott,

Your welcome to visit us at CNU, our Xenetech XLT1325 is 60 watt. The power supply will definately be a factor to be considered.

.

Rodne Gold
06-11-2008, 4:12 AM
Is the test to prove throughput or to prove that time between finish of Corel design and running the job is faster or what?
Part of the productivity process is contained within Corel itself , as the design of the graphic often has elements which have to work around laser issues or correspond to some machine property.

If a job is to be tested , it has to be from start of Corel design outwards.

I don't believe a test like this can actually show anything significant that would mean that one laser is better than another.
In terms of our Gcc's , well the time between finishing the graphic and getting it to print is a minute fraction of the total job time.
Thruput is dependant on a ton of things like how the graphic is optimised , the lasers optimisation routine and what is acceptable quality vs time taken. Speed or utility of a laser has also got to include downtimes , if your laser is blindingly fast and you are down for 2 days , vs a slighter slower one that's up , your thruput is shocking.
Another factor to consider is repeats , how quickly can you load and unload the machine and how quickly can you repeat the job , in my case repeating a job , considering the file etc is stored on the laser , is a simple button press. I also have my puter freed up after a print job is sent , in fact i dont even have to have the laser connected to a puter , we have a facility to store multiple jobs on the memory of my one set of lasers , switch it off and start running the same jobs the next day....sans puter.
Produtivity and thruput translate directly into money , as laser time is money assuming you are chock a block with work , anything that affects the generation of profits , like expensive repairs , dud jobs , laser tube replacements , waiting for tech support etc is relevant , not just how fast the machine performs. How do you factor in the fact Keith has to repeat jobs cos of letters middles falling out? Its double machine time , double material costs and a huge aggravation factor.

I have seen most of the lasers ppl own here in operation and have spoken to owners re their issues , it seems to me that what you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts and no mainstream machine in the power/price class is better than another.
As I say , I do not believe a simple head to head test proves much , one need to test over a longer time period with a multitude of jobs (most of us arent single task users , we are jobbing shops)

At any rate , the simple fact , proven time and time again , and re-itterated by experienced users is that the real determining factor of which machine to buy is the length and quality of it's warrantee and the accesibility of tech support and parts.