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jay vyas
06-12-2008, 1:15 AM
hieee,

hey guys am from india and i want to ask is it compulsory to have a air condition for a laser machine i have epilog mini 35wattsl, i have heard people saying that the laser tube should be cool and it should not get hot or else the tube will get spoiled or dead and i'll have to replace a new tube is it so???

what should be the minimum temp. of the room where the machine is located...:)

Wil Lambert
06-12-2008, 7:04 AM
Call Epilog but I think the warranty is void on the tube if the room temp gets over 90deg. The tube is air cooled. I keep my laser in a air conditioned room in my shop. Even in Wisconsin the summers can get hot.

Wil

Joe Pelonio
06-12-2008, 8:17 AM
Call Epilog but I think the warranty is void on the tube if the room temp gets over 90deg. The tube is air cooled. I keep my laser in a air conditioned room in my shop. Even in Wisconsin the summers can get hot.

Wil
Yes, the room temperature needs to be kept below 90F (32C) per Epilog warranty.

David Fairfield
06-12-2008, 9:20 AM
might be interesting to find out who's tubes lasted the longest and what the average yearly temperature was in their shop. Mine is in a basement room that's about 65 degrees year round, 3 years and no sign of any change. I think Barbara B has the record for the oldest tube on the forum.

Dave

David Brasfield
06-12-2008, 10:13 AM
I "cold soak" the shop every night, so even in our summers (90+ daily), 96 yesterday, the mornings in the shop are chilly. The reason for that has been that it keeps the shop down around 82 degrees max during the day with me blowing all the cold air out the exhaust...

I purposefully had a much larger than needed unit installed when I built the shop simply because of machines and heat, plus the traffic in and out. I never imagined that it would save my bacon on a laser.

My shop is 2100 sq ft. I know that I am exhausting at least 900 - 1100 CFM to the outside when the laser is running, and replacing that air with incoming 90+ degree, 70% or higher humidity laden air.

Looks like I accidentally did something right. Man, I like that better than the other kinds of accidents. ;)

David

Joe Pelonio
06-12-2008, 10:24 AM
I have a 12,000 btu window A/C unit in my shop. It will keep it 68F here using the lowest fan speed on the hottest day of the year, which is rarely over 85 in our climate, though we have hit 101 a few times. With the vinyl work I also do I need it cooler, and just personally prefer it that cool. I could have gotten by with a smaller unit but it would run on a faster (noisier) speed. It was well worth the $299 I paid for it.

David Brasfield
06-12-2008, 10:43 AM
I have a 12,000 btu window A/C unit in my shop. It will keep it 68F here using the lowest fan speed on the hottest day of the year, which is rarely over 85 in our climate, though we have hit 101 a few times. With the vinyl work I also do I need it cooler, and just personally prefer it that cool. I could have gotten by with a smaller unit but it would run on a faster (noisier) speed. It was well worth the $299 I paid for it.

You are rubbing that salt in on purpose, aren't you? ;)

7 ton unit here, and as you read, it maxes out at 82 during the day. Here is the other part that hurts, my walls are 8 inches thick, and all are insulated to R19 or better, and all the window glass is "E" glass. I wish it had cost $300.

I have considered a dehumidifier and using outside air, enclosing the laser, but it still would probably cost more to operate than what I am doing.

$299. That just means it's your fault that my power bill is 2 -3 times that every month.

:)

David

Richard Rumancik
06-12-2008, 10:44 AM
. . am from india and i want to ask is it compulsory to have a air condition for a laser machine

It would be difficult to actually air condition the entire room. Your exhaust blower will be exhausting a lot of air and it would be expensive to keep an entire room cool at high outdoor ambients. So maybe you can tolerate the heat personally, but the laser can't, so probably the best you can do is keep the tube cool.

You could add fans to the tube area but this will only help cool if the air temperature is below the manufacturer's maximum permitted operating temp. If they say 90F max, then extra fans won't help that much if the air is 100F. So you may need to look at a way to cool the chamber in which the laser sits. (Ideally this would cool the power supply and mainboard too.)

Higher power lasers use water cooling on the tube itself, but this needs a chiller to cool the water. You may be able to rig up something yourself to keep the laser area cooler, such as a small air conditioner or heat exchanger. In order to implement this idea you need a system where the laser tube is in a separate compartment from the exhaust air. I understand not all laser tubes are isolated in this way.

But you have to be careful about what you do. When a chiller is used, the manufacturers give warnings regarding use of the laser system. It has to do with the risk of condensation in the laser tube causing damage to the tube.

If you want to supplement the cooling, you should consult the manufacturer. Also, I suggest you install appropriate temperature control and monitoring devices to maintain constant operating temperature and warn of overtemperature conditions.

David Fairfield
06-12-2008, 11:17 AM
I agree with Richard. I'm not sure how complex the ductwork would need to be chill the air around the tube during operation.

The air cooling fans on the epilog mini are arranged in a bank on the rear of the machine. If an air conditioning unit were placed directly above this bank, and hooked into the same circuit that the exhaust fan were on, with the AC unit running, the cooled air would be sucked first into the laser, before it exhausted into the room.

You can also use a simple interior wall with foam insulation to chamber off the laser to keep it air conditioned year round, even while switched off, as per manufacturer recommendation.

But like Richard says, you definitely want to talk to the tech people first and get their opinion before you do anything that might damage your tube!

Dave

Peck Sidara
06-12-2008, 11:53 AM
Yes, the room temperature needs to be kept below 90F (32C) per Epilog warranty.

Jay, Joe's statement is correct. This is the maximum operating temperature recommended by the manufacturer.

Minimum room temp should not be a factor in India. Have you contacted Laser Lab India? What do they have to say?

Michael Kowalczyk
06-12-2008, 12:20 PM
WOW I can't believe no one has mentioned using a carbon filter system. If you are removing that much AC'd air, a filtered system would pay for itself quickly. We have a separate room in our shop for the laser with it's own window unit and an overflow duct from the CNC room's AC.

For our purposes, the window unit works well because it is only on when we need it on.

We have 2 Blue Tornado dust collection cyclone systems, one for each CNC. One has a 4 bag system and the other has 2 pleated filter cartridges. The 4 bagger was too large to put in the CNC room so it sucks out the AC'd air and puts it into the shop. The cartridge system takes up less room so I will eventually convert the 4 bagger to a cartridge so I can put the cartridge only in a corner of the room so I can reclaim some of the AC'd air. The main cyclone unit will still be on the other side of the wall. I will just have to put a 7" hole, in the wall, to run the short duct.

I believe that by using a filtered system you will be able to reclaim a high % of your AC'd air.

Do the math. #CFM of AC'd air being removed at an extra cost of #$ per month that can be paying for a filtered system and keeping your laser room more comfortable AND keeping you from voiding your warranty.

Just thought I'd throw this on the table.:cool:

Bill Cunningham
06-12-2008, 10:13 PM
when I built my shop I considered insulation to be a good investment.. My walls are R-20, floor is R-12, ceiling is R-28.. I'm not air condx in the shop, but I open the upstairs window at night, and let it cool right down.. In the morning I close all the windows and the shop stays pretty cool all day unless the laser is running.. Then it's just comfortable most of the day until it reaches outdoor ambient temp. I do not run my laser on 'hot' days, except in the morning when it's cool, or if it's a real important job I run it at night. What I have also found, that on very hot days, with all the cities air condx going, the line voltage drops and your power goes down anyway! We have had one day this summer (last week) where it was over 90 deg F .. They become 'artwork days', or I run it in the evenings.. I simply tell my customers that the laser does not run on hot days, and I will do their project just as soon as I can.. Instead of spending a half day on artwork, or email most days, I spend the entire day doing one or the other.. sometimes it can't be helped, and most people are very Understanding.. If their not, they go to the bottom of the list :D

James Stokes
06-12-2008, 10:42 PM
Well I guess I am differant. I work out of an unair conditioned shop and have never had a problem. During the summer here It may get to 100 degrees with 75 percent humidity.

jay vyas
06-13-2008, 1:26 AM
thanks for all your replys...:)

Robert Ray
06-13-2008, 9:06 AM
I do not want to burst any bubbles about carbon filters, because yes they do absorb most of the stink from engraving, but be advised that when the laser breaks down a material, some compounds are solid dust, some vapors, and some are gasses. The gasses get released into the air, and can be anything from Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide, Chlorine, Fluorine, and others, in small amounts, depending on what is being engraved. Some you can smell and some you cannot. If using the carbon filters you will still want some air exchange in your shop or you might feel the effects by the end of the day.

-Robert Ray

Michael Kowalczyk
06-13-2008, 11:47 AM
Excellent point Robert.
If they are running materials that have toxic fumes/gases then they should direct vent or if their filter is strong enough, then run the AC using outside air instead of recirculating.

Bill,
When you open your upstairs window at night, to cool it down, do you have any issues with humidity/dew? Just curious.

(I hope that when I am able to build our shop, Lord willing, we will be able to have the main level below grade level and Super insulate the rest like you and use the earth's coolness that is 300+- feet below keep it cool. I have read many articles about running pipes down deep and looping them so they cool. The earth's temp is around 45-55 F down deep. let's not hijack this post just wanted to share and expand on Bill's post.)

David Fairfield
06-13-2008, 12:18 PM
Yup, geothermal cooling/heating. As my work area is below ground, I benefit from a fairly steady 65 degrees year round. I saw a really interesting episode of This Old House, where they discussed whole house air conditioning & heating using water passing through buried pipe. Simple, cheap and ingenius; a rare and exquisite combination! :)



Excellent point Robert.
If they are running materials that have toxic fumes/gases then they should direct vent or if their filter is strong enough, then run the AC using outside air instead of recirculating.

Bill,
When you open your upstairs window at night, to cool it down, do you have any issues with humidity/dew? Just curious.

(I hope that when I am able to build our shop, Lord willing, we will be able to have the main level below grade level and Super insulate the rest like you and use the earth's coolness that is 300+- feet below keep it cool. I have read many articles about running pipes down deep and looping them so they cool. The earth's temp is around 45-55 F down deep. let's not hijack this post just wanted to share and expand on Bill's post.)

Bill Cunningham
06-14-2008, 9:31 PM
Bill,
When you open your upstairs window at night, to cool it down, do you have any issues with humidity/dew? Just curious.

(I hope that when I am able to build our shop, Lord willing, we will be able to have the main level below grade level and Super insulate the rest like you and use the earth's coolness that is 300+- feet below keep it cool. I have read many articles about running pipes down deep and looping them so they cool. The earth's temp is around 45-55 F down deep. let's not hijack this post just wanted to share and expand on Bill's post.)

I have not noticed a lot of humidity, I have a dehumidifier in the shop, but only run it when it get real sticky outside.. I don't have much of a attic, no more than a foot of space above the upstairs ceiling, (barn shaped roof) but directly above the hatch door to that space I have a turbine ventilator and the breeze keeps it turning.. Hot air rises, so it leaves the shop through the turbine, and the cooler air sinks to the main floor.. Yesterday, it was 92 deg out side, and the laser was running for a few hours that day but it was 6 deg. cooler inside.. Not much, but everyone that comes in notices.. I'm upgrading the house heat from a oil fired hot water/air handler system to a Gas High eff. furnace, and a 'big' air source heatpump/aircondx along with a instant HW heater all in all it's costing me about 14k but with heating oil prices here hitting 1.40 a liter ($5.29 a us gal.) my heating costs would be over 4k next winter .. My 1200 sq ft shop, heats on gas (just a ceiling hung 40kbtu heater ) for under $500 a year.. gov. grants will give me back about 3k for the upgrade, so It's a no brainer.. If I were a younger man, and not planning to sell my house in a few years, I would be looking at a ground source system for sure!!

Jeffrey Levine
06-18-2008, 1:38 AM
So there is no kind of “thermo-switch” or something built into an Epilog to either shut it down or at least sound some warning beeps if any type of safe operating temperature is exceeded to the extent that damage might result? That’s pretty scary!!! I’ll certainly be careful to operate in temps below 90 as recommended, but even a hairdryer that literally costs a thousand times less has technology built in to shut it down when things get too hot. Is that correct that such a basic, simple feature has been excluded???

Peck Sidara
06-18-2008, 10:14 AM
So there is no kind of “thermo-switch” or something built into an Epilog to either shut it down or at least sound some warning beeps if any type of safe operating temperature is exceeded to the extent that damage might result? That’s pretty scary!!! I’ll certainly be careful to operate in temps below 90 as recommended, but even a hairdryer that literally costs a thousand times less has technology built in to shut it down when things get too hot. Is that correct that such a basic, simple feature has been excluded???



The laser tubes used in all Epilog laser systems has internal thermal switches built into the tube itself. If the temperature of the laser tube exceeds the set limit, the tube will shut down on its own until cooled down enough to reset the thermo switch.
Ideal operating temperature is room temperature around 65-75 F. MAXIMUM recommended operating temp is 90 F. MINIMUM recommended operating temp is about 40-45 F.

Joe Pelonio
06-18-2008, 11:10 AM
I just saw an ad for a new kind of A/C unit that might work well for people, made by Mitsubishi. Pretty expensive though, starting at over $1,000. The inside part is very small, most of it goes outside but directly attached to the inside part via a small 3" hole in the wall, so it can easily be positioned near the laser if it's on an outside wall.

Apparently it was developed for the smaller homes in Japan, and is much quieter than window A/C units. Since I already have 3 window units I won't be buying one any time soon though.

Jeffrey Levine
06-18-2008, 11:52 AM
The laser tubes used in all Epilog laser systems has internal thermal switches built into the tube itself. If the temperature of the laser tube exceeds the set limit, the tube will shut down on its own until cooled down enough to reset the thermo switch.
Ideal operating temperature is room temperature around 65-75 F. MAXIMUM recommended operating temp is 90 F. MINIMUM recommended operating temp is about 40-45 F.


Thanks for the clarification. It would have been very surprising to me that it would not have some sort of thermo switch, and your confirmation that there is one makes me feel much more comfortable. However, based on the 90f max room temp recommendation (which disregarding would void the warranty), I assume this thermo switch can’t be relied upon to avoid damage? It basically sounds like the machine can be run in a room over 90f without the thermo switch shutting it down, but doing so is likely to cause damage? Is that understanding correct? Or is it something else like the laser does not perform as well in room temps outside the recommendations, but will not likely be damaged as the thermo switch provides protection against that?

I do not ever plan to exceed the min/max recommendations, but I would like to understand more about the optimal room temps so, for example, I might be able to determine that it would be worth the extra effort and expense to maintain optimal 65-75f (as opposed to low/mid 80s on hot summer days) if this would have significant impact on tube longevity? I am a proud new owner of a Mini24 and want to make sure I give it the absolute best care possible for long term reliability.

Peck Sidara
06-18-2008, 3:24 PM
Thank you for your business Jeffery.

Thermo switch temperature does exceed maximum abient room temperature of 90 F. Running your laser regularly in the mid to high 90's may shorten the life expectancy. Overall though it shouldn't be a concern. Here's why:

*We use high quality waveguide laser tubes built by a reputable laser company, the best in the business. These are just numbers, recommendations. As with anything, taking it to the extreme is only when you'll come across difficulty.

*I've always told customers this, your laser can operate in temps which you feel comfortable working in. The abient room temperature for most places (mfg'ing, business offices, etc.) run an ambient room temperature of 6X-7X F, this is ideal for the laser system but doesn't mean that if you're under or above, the laser will fail.
The recommendation is between the min max, 45-90F.

*If you run in the 80's during the summer and in the 50's during the winter, no problem. If you're running the laser in a sauna or an walk in cooler, please consider a different locale.

*If your comfortable working in mid 80 temps, take some simple precautions like allowing 1-2 feet to the left, right and rear of the machine for air flow, clean the heatsinks of the laser and the fans cooling the laser periodically. Consider a swamp cooler or the many different cooling options discussed in this thread.

What it boils down to is common sense. The original inquiry is from a gentleman in India. My prenotion of typical laser engraving environments in India are very hot, confined space, no air-conditioning and running non-stop. His local Epilog agent, Laser Lab India probably mentioned something of the likes to him, thus spawning his inquiry. Jay Vyas should consider adding some sort of cooling to his facility if my prenotions are correct.

Robert Alexander
06-18-2008, 8:55 PM
One option you might think about for your laser and keeping the shop cool during the summer is putting a flex aluminum hose (say 2 inches bigger than your exhaust duct) with an outside intake (away from the exhaust outlet) with a mesh screen/and or filter to keep out bugs, birds, small dogs ect. And a square to round sheetmetal fitting attached to the front of the air intake on your laser. On my Helix the air intake is in front, which makes it easy to take on or off. That way no cooled air is lost to venting.