Last coat of Waterlox puddled up: what do I do now?

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So I don't know why the system turned that on its side, but oh well.

First of all: HEY! Been creeping this forum for a little while, getting tips and knowledge. Thank you all.

So I've run into a small (I hope) problem that (I hope) you guys can (I hope!) help me fix.

Here's the scenario.

3-inch slab of Sapele. Beeeeyoootiful wood.

Put in some walnut keys to secure some natural cracks in the wood. Sanded the tops of both pieces to 220.

Decided to use Waterlox Original (lot low VOC).

Followed the directions from Waterlox on the first two coats: use a natural brush, apply liberally. Things went fairly well. First coat totally soaked in, surface was darker but totally dull still.

2nd coat, brush, liberal application (following guidelines as to how much). mostly soaked in, a few semi-shiny spots as it was building a bit. Noticed a few bubbles in the 2nd coat, but nothing bad.

Because of the bubbles, decided on the third coat to do a rub application--lint-free cloth inside a pantyhose, dipped in Waterlox (thinned with 10% mineral spirits). Went on fine. Much thinner coat here, just enough to wet the wood a bit. Rubbed it in. Went really well, getting a smoother finish now. I'm NOT going for a glass-like glossy finish. But I do want it sealed (this will be a kitchen island top).

Figured one more thin coat would probably do it. Applied just like the third, but I noticed that in places...as I applied it...the waterlox kinda puddled up immediately. As you'd see if you put water on clean glass.

I thought "well crap", but was already in it. Plus, I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that the Waterlox would even out/run to low spots and once it set, the "puddles" would be gone.

In some places, yes. In most, no.

So I'm left with a slightly bumpy surface. You really can only see it in just the right light, but I want this thing to come out right. So I've stopped work (this was 4 days ago) and I'm figuring out what to do now.

Should I dry sand it once it cures?

Should I wet sand it w/Mineral Spirits now? Or wait?

I do NOT want to build multiple more coats to even it out, as it'll be way too thick at that point.

I'd prefer not to sand it all off and start over. There's gotta be a way to get these "puddles" gone, even if it's removing SOME of the previous coats.

Do I just strip w/mineral spirits or something? What do I do here?

My goal, again, is a semi-gloss at most finish. I want it to feel like wood still, but be protected since it'll be a kitchen work space.

Help?:confused:

How long did you wait between coats 2 and 3?

How long between 3 and 4?

Anything else happen then, like scuff-sanding?

I believe what you're seeing is minor incompatibility with Waterlox and Mineral Spirits. I've had this happen to me.
Wipe off the bubbly coat with ms if if hasn't yet dried. Buff it all off, then wait for the surface to dry. Don't worry about how it looks yet. You can lightly sand off any nibs or bubbles with 400g if you need to, but do it gently and wipe off any dust/mineral spirits thoroughly and again give it time for any residual ms to evaporate.

Try, then to wipe on the Original Sealer Finish again. You can (and should if you wipe) wipe it without thinning it with anything.

BTW, post some more pics. That color is very nice.

Kent: 2-3 days between coats 3 and 4. No scuffing in between. Nothing in between, just wiped on 3...waited, looked good...then wiped on 4.

Prashun: I don't think I thinned the last coat that I rubbed on. Honestly, I can't remember 100%. Coat 3 definitely had a touch of thinner in it.

Isn't Waterlox based on mineral spirits? Seems like it wouldn't have a compatibility issue, though I really am not an expert in such things.

What you see is dry. Coat 4 went on on Monday afternoon and it's Thursday now. So that's where I sit.

So are you saying that I should wet sand w/400 and mineral spirits to get those puddles gone?

I'll def post more pics. The color of the Sapele is amazing. In natural light it's quite redder than it appears in that photos (which appears very brown). But that was at night w/minimal lighting in the garage).

I wish I could feel the surface. But I would FIRST try to moisten a rag with mineral spirits and rub out the bubbles. You may find that they will soften and be removable. The next step would be to sand them off.

I can't explain the incompatibility either. It's real, though (at least in my experience). It seems to MIX fine, but it seems to (wrong word here) contaminate the surface so the next or same coat starts to streak or bubble. I've had enough problems with this, that i've learned to keep the two away from each other and I have had no problems since.

Hmm, ok.

So even after three days, you'd start w/rubbing w/a rag & mineral spirits to smooth things out. if that works, great. If not, move on to sanding--dry or wet (mineral spirits)?

Think I'll need to re-coat after sanding? If so, how do I keep this from happening again if I wipe and/or wet sand w/mineral spirits? Just wanna make sure I don't end up in the same spot.

I always try to wipe off first. The reason is that if it bubbled, there's a chance it hasn't properly dried and remains soft.
Yes, I believe you'll need to recoat after sanding.

If you wipe/wetsand with mineral spirits (as I do), use a few clean shop towels to wipe the surface as clean as possible. Then, WAIT for a couple hours. The MS will evaporate. Then wipe again with a dry shop towel to get rid of anything else.
I'm saying this like it's difficult. It's not; it's just that it doesn't MS fully evaporate as quickly as many believe. So wait a little between putting MS on the surface and putting Waterlox on the surface.

If it comes to having to sand the bubbles off, what you want to try to minimize is witness lines. Work slowly. Sand, wipe off, let it dry a little, then continue. Wetsanding obscures your progress, and hides witness lines. Even if you get MINOR witness spots, they will fill in with a couple wipe on coats of Waterlox; they just mean you'll have to wipe on 3 or 4 more instead of 1 or 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James Dudley

Kent: 2-3 days between coats 3 and 4. No scuffing in between. Nothing in between, just wiped on 3...waited, looked good...then wiped on 4.

Prashun: I don't think I thinned the last coat that I rubbed on. Honestly, I can't remember 100%. Coat 3 definitely had a touch of thinner in it.

Isn't Waterlox based on mineral spirits? Seems like it wouldn't have a compatibility issue, though I really am not an expert in such things.

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With wipe-on coats, my rule of thumb is to recoat within 24 hrs. Else, scuff sand. But - your version of "wipe on" is much thicker than what I use - 50/50.

I don't know for sure - Howie and Obi-Wan Holmes may weigh in here - but I wonder if you did not have some adhesion problems. I say this because...........

I had one unmigitated, heart-breaking, find-a-dog-to-kick, disaster on a big table top. Scuff sanded btwn brush-on coats, then picked up dust resdue with MS on a rag. Maybe I did not let the MS fully evaporate, but after the next coat went on, it puddled in a staggerring way - not little bits like you see, but large swaths where the varnish "pulled back" leaving unvarnished areas. Plus - I do not remember the brand of MS - coulda been BORG or "green" or whatever. I do not use that anymore - get my stuff from SW store.

Had to sand it all back a couple coats. Never again - I use DNA to wiipe dust - it flashes 100% alomost instantly. Sorry to say - your problem looks somewhat reminiscent of mine.

Not qualified to critique your technique in detail, but can tell you what has always worked for me: first coat is brushed 25% MS; 2 - 3 coats brushed at what ever it takes to get good flow - usually 10% + a smidgen; scuff between coats with 3M 320 Gold; one last scuff, then 2 coats wipe-on @ 50/50.

PLUS -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James Dudley

I'm NOT going for a glass-like glossy finish. But I do want it sealed (this will be a kitchen island top).

I do NOT want to build multiple more coats to even it out, as it'll be way too thick at that point.

I'd prefer not to sand it all off and start over. There's gotta be a way to get these "puddles" gone, even if it's removing SOME of the previous coats.

My goal, again, is a semi-gloss at most finish. I want it to feel like wood still, but be protected since it'll be a kitchen work space.

Help?:confused:

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Others should weigh in here, but in my experience, you cannot get there from here. You have 2 or 3 objectives that are non-compatible.

THe W'Lox is gloss. Period. You can't get good coverage with a "satiny-look" by not doing a full varnish schedule. Especially in a kitchen work space.

"Way too thick" - I don't understand this bit. For me - an "in-use" surface like a table top or counter top would be 4 - 5 brushed on coats. Get that on, do a good job, and you have a gloss surface. At which point, there are 2 options:

1. A wipe-on coat of satin. OR,
2. Wait a minimum of 4 weeks, then rub it out.

#1 is fast and easy, but you cannot adjust the satin/gloss appearance - it is what it is out of hte can.
#2 is more work, but you can dial in the gloss level you want. Stop at the grit that gets you where you [or The Angel of the Kitchen] want to be.


To me, the answer is -
1. sand it back without going thru the first coat.
2. Remove all the dust - do not use MS
3. 4 brush-on coats. Wait 24 hrs between each, scuff sand
4. PIck your poison - W'lox satin or rub-out. For my house, it is rub-out. One client wanted the look of out-of-the-can satin, so I gritted my teeth and said "Yes Ma'am. Right you are."

Kent: thanks for the feedback.

I understand the Waterlox is gloss. It'll kinda lost sheen over time according to Waterlox. I just meant that I don't want a thick, perfectly flat, plasticy looking finish on the top of this wood. I'm fine with the sheen that Waterlox achieves as it is, I'm not going to do a coat of Satin. I've read too many horror stories about that.

The idea of wiping dust with DNA rather than MS is interesting. I used some good DNA on a previous project (shellac project). I can get more of that to use. I assume there are no issues w/compatibility problems with that since it flashes so quickly? I also have Naptha on hand.



So to both of you guys, here's what I'm thinking of doing. Please tell me if you think you see an issue here.

Since it's been 3 days since I applied the last coat of waterlox, I can't believe it's wet enough to rub off. I may give that a try first, but if not, the first step is to:

1: Wetsand with MS. Do in bits/stages as noted.

2: Wait a day or two.

3: Clean with DNA. Make sure it's dry.

4: Reapply Waterlox. Kent it sounds like you suggest a brush rather than wipe-on? Is that more for coverage/thickness or something else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst

2. Wait a minimum of 4 weeks, then rub it out.

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Quick question about the "rub it out" bit.

The scheduling isn't a problem. It's my table, I can wait.

So this would be after all waterlox is applied, wait 4 weeks, then do....what?

Rubbing out is something that comes later. It's a way to really take the finish to the next level; but honestly it makes more of an impact on thickly brushed finishes. For yours, where you're applying a few thin, wiped on coats after final sanding, you may not - probably SHOULD not - rub it out later, since this can be an aggressive process that'll burn through thin layers.

I would WIPE on your final coats of Waterlox. The first after a sanding may dry streaky. Stay undaunted. By the 2nd and definitely the 3rd coat, you'll be Back Where You Belong better than .38 Special.

Kent, the Waterlox he's using is already thinned to a wiping varnish consistency. It wipes JUST FINE out of the can. If this were a different type of varnish, I'm with you in prefering to thin to 50/50, but with Waterlox OSF, it's just not friendly that way. Wipe it as is.

The general rule-of-thumb is that 3 coats of wipe-on, @ 50/50, equals 1 brush on.

You need at least 4 - really 5 - brush-on coats for a high-use area.

Do the math: 5, or 3 x 5 = 15

You have to sand between every coat of brush on. Wait 24 hr between coats.

You were correct, IMO, to have a thinned first-coat to get absorption - that is exactly what I do - build a base, then go to town.

OR, you can put down 1 wipe-on, wait 1 - 2 hours, another wipe on, wait 1 - 2 hours, a 3d wipe on. Wait 24 hours, scuff sand.

Don't short the # coats to get some "look" you have in mind - you will end up back at it, to resand and recoat. Give it what it requires, and address the target gloss issue separatley.

The point about brush-on is that it build the film thickness faster. However - you notice that I am a sissy - my brushing skills have made quantum leaps in the last few years, but I still end it all with 1 or 2 coats of wipe-on: no brush marks, faster flash time = control of dust nibs.

There is nothing wrong with the satin that I know of - just as easy to use as the regular, as far as I have experienced. You just need to want that "look", because you have no choice from there.

I guess you don't have to use DNA to help pick up the dust - - you could use distilled water, or nothing - - I just find that it helps. Something got in my way that one time, and the only thing I could htink of is that I used MS that one time, and I only waited an hour or so before the next coat - maybe there was some residual stuff there that created a barrier to adhesion between the coats - which means that the surface tension of the next coat overrode the adhesion to the previsouo coat, so it "contracted" [my scientific terminology is non-functional today]? Dunno - but it is on my superstitions list.

could old MS have caused issues? I don't know how old the stuff I have is. It's not SUPER old (like 10 years) but it's not super fresh either.

If the ms is clear and smells like ms, its fine.

I think I apply Waterlox differently than most guys here in that I do apply it liberally with a brush rather than thin hand wipe on coats - kind of like you started. I don't follow the directions - which say no need to sand between coats. I do follow the instructions which say wait 24 hours between coats.

The following technique I use is for use on a flat surface such as a table or bar top using the Waterlox Original Sealer Finish. I no longer attempt working with the Waterlox satin - it never ever levels out in my experience and always requires way more work than should be necessary. If I want a lower sheen I buff out the top after about 5 to 6months. It really takes that long to dry hard enough to properly buff it. This is my experience and I don't claim that it is the only way to go. It works well for me. So...

After 24 hours or longer in a 65° to 68° comfortable room (too much heat usually causes problems with Waterlox) I then sand the entire surface with a 220 Abranet Mesh on my finish sander. This after the 1st coat. Each subsequent coat up to 6 gets sanded with finer grits up to no less than 320. Using a Festool ETS 150/3 with a vac system - very very little dust.

Nonetheless I vacum and tack cloth meticulously between coats and the cleaning includes making certain that I am dust free too (hair included). The 1st and 2nd coat are usually brushed on with a good bristle brush but by the 3rd and subsequent coats I favor applying with the brush but tipping off with a loaded (but not dripping) wide foam brush with a crisp edge. Not all foam brushes are of the same quality but whatever I'm using holds up well and lays a nice coat. I work from one long edge to the other quickly and maintain a smooth overlap and tip off in long light strokes from one end to the other over every 2 or 3 laps. Others report that spraying is very effective.

All this to say that I think you might have started running into trouble leaving bubbles and then "Much thinner coat here, just enough to wet the wood a bit. Rubbed it in." - that rubbing in to the coats below that were likely still too soft and being softened and moved around more with the mineral spirited mix you were working in was the beginning of the end. You were now working all 3 layers at once. Sanding between coats after 24 hours will give you a dusty surface but rubbing wet into that surface will just soften below.

If this were my project I would stop for 3 or 4 days (preferably a bit longer) then just sand with 180 grit up to 320 grit to what will appear as a good even surface - not to bare wood. Then just start applying the finish through the steps.