dovetails and shoulder fright

I've cut a dozen or so dovetail joints in the last couple months, and other than a few practice pieces, that's the extent of my dovetailing experience. I'm getting pretty comfortable with the entire process, save for one step: cutting the shoulders. For some reason, when I switch to cut across the grain, I get really scared. My results never come out well. I've tried cutting shy of the line and chiseling to it, but the end grain is usually somewhat difficult, and it rarely turns out how I want it. And my cross-grain sawing could be better. Still, I'm able to saw to a line when making rip cuts during the dovetailing process.

Any simple tricks for the shoulders you could pass along? It's such a visible part of the joint that I really need to get over my fears and find a way to improve.

do you make a knifewall or just use a pencil line? A knife wall makes x-cuts much more accurate for me. Mark the shoulder line w/ a knife and then chisel into it from the waste side creating a small diagonal ledge for the saw to start in.

Are you using a saw sharpened cross-cut for those cuts? That can help a lot, depending on how grabby your dovetail saw is. On a show piece like this, it can be helpful to take the extra time to slightly deepen your knife cut, and chisel out a little bit of waste to give your saw a nice V to sit into and start the cut. With a well sharpened saw, starting the cut accurately is 99 percent of the fight.

Cutting a hair away and paring like you said you tried works well, but you need a sharp chisel. A little trimmed out vee into your marked lines helps to guide the chisel and give you something to shoot towards. If your vee is deep enough, you've got most of what you need, and the parts that are left can be trimmed with an under-sized chisel to flush up the joint, and the remaining area is all something you can undercut, so you don't have to worry about keeping square around the whole area. Just don't undercut too close to the edges, so if you plane the joint area a bit, you don't open up the joint.

I do use a knife wall, and I've done the chiseling-in trick you mentioned on cross cuts before for tenon shoulders, but not when dovetailing. I will try it.

Usually I mark it with the marking gauge, and I might deepen it with my chisel before cutting. The only problem there is that the bevel of the chisel drives the knife wall back just a hair, and when I saw, It's like I'm sawing off the line instead of splitting it.

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Originally Posted by Curtis Niedermier

I do use a knife wall, and I've done the chiseling-in trick you mentioned on cross cuts before for tenon shoulders, but not when dovetailing. I will try it.

Usually I mark it with the marking gauge, and I might deepen it with my chisel before cutting. The only problem there is that the bevel of the chisel drives the knife wall back just a hair, and when I saw, It's like I'm sawing off the line instead of splitting it.

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not sure we're talking about the same thing w/ a knife wall. sorry if I'm misunderstanding. Don't deepen the line by driving a chisel in it for the reasons you mentioned -it will just move the line back. Instead deepen the line w/ a knife and then chisel into it using more of a paring action i.e the chisel is held at about a 10 degree angle and pushed (by hand) into the knife line. Here it's very important to maintain the vertical knife line --this way, you're not splitting the line. Instead the edge of the saw rides against the line (knifewall).

I use a tite mark Marking gauge to give me the lines for the shoulders and base lines.
When cutting the shoulders the saw just falls into the marked line and there is very little if any cleanup needed.
If I am doing multiple drawers I have two. One set for the tail board and one for the pin board...

+1 on sharp. paring end grain is one of those operations where taking sharpness up to a higher level really pays off.

A flush cut saw with a 90 degree guide clamped at your cut line might help.

Most of my dovetails have tails that are a little rough,
when assembled, glued and clamped together they fill in most gaps.

Planing the resulting box usually takes care of any uneven joints.

The inestimable Bob Rozaieski at the Logan Cabinet shoppe was kind enough to publish the fix I use, to this day.
http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2...olish-mistake/

The short version - keep offcuts of both the pin and tail boards to make patching wedges.
The strength of the join is where the long grain surfaces are glued.

The shoulder line is decorative, not structural.

I'm going to second Jim's recommendation of using a flush cut saw with 90 degree guide block for the cross-grain shoulder cuts. Jeff Miller gets the credit for this technique. He also correctly recommends the Kugihishi saw that Lee Valley sells for around $30. That saw is fantastic for guided cross cuts and I use it on all my tenon shoulders too. The cuts are glassy smooth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curtis Niedermier

I've cut a dozen or so dovetail joints in the last couple months, and other than a few practice pieces, that's the extent of my dovetailing experience. I'm getting pretty comfortable with the entire process, save for one step: cutting the shoulders. For some reason, when I switch to cut across the grain, I get really scared. My results never come out well. I've tried cutting shy of the line and chiseling to it, but the end grain is usually somewhat difficult, and it rarely turns out how I want it. And my cross-grain sawing could be better. Still, I'm able to saw to a line when making rip cuts during the dovetailing process.

Any simple tricks for the shoulders you could pass along? It's such a visible part of the joint that I really need to get over my fears and find a way to improve.

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Hi Curtis

I have an idea you may like to try out.

Essentially, the difficulty you are having is judging where the saw kerf needs to run - do you saw on the line, off the line ... It's not that you cannot saw straight but more a case of where you saw.

So try this: wrap a piece of blue tape around the shoulder so that it just covers the knifed line. You plan to saw against the tape without tearing it, that is, saw as close as you can (taking into account the saw set). Start at the corner so that you begin by sawing two adjacent lines. That will aid in keeping the saw line straight.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curtis Niedermier

I do use a knife wall, and I've done the chiseling-in trick you mentioned on cross cuts before for tenon shoulders, but not when dovetailing. I will try it.

Usually I mark it with the marking gauge, and I might deepen it with my chisel before cutting. The only problem there is that the bevel of the chisel drives the knife wall back just a hair, and when I saw, It's like I'm sawing off the line instead of splitting it.

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Be a little gentler when making the knife wall. Just tap the chisel, then remove the waste, repeat if you want your knife wall a bit deeper. I was doing the same thing just the other week and found that being a little gentle helped.

If you have an accurately marked, knifed line, shoulders of all sorts should not cause any fear. Saw as close as your skill with the saw allows, and take the last with a chisel. The method also allows a slight undercut where appropriate.http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3132/3...0a2_z.jpg?zz=1

Hey thanks for all the advice. I will be cutting more dovetails this weekend and will cut away by the knife line before sawing. I need to be braver with all my saw cuts. I learned that this time because the joint was too tight. I had to go back with a chisel and clean up the pins. Had I cut to the line in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem. And my dovetails always look cleaner after sawing but before cleaning with the chisel.

on another note, the sugar pine I'm using is awful to work with. It crumbles on the end grain when I chop and is stringy when I plane on the face. It's only one board giving me fits, but if course that's the board I'm using for a tool chest carcass. This board is very red in color with no defined grain. It's like working with balsa or something. I have another board for the lid panel and frame, and it's a very whitish yellow color, and it works like a dream. Think it's a bad board? Or a bad part of the tree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curtis Niedermier

Hey thanks for all the advice. I will be cutting more dovetails this weekend and will cut away by the knife line before sawing. I need to be braver with all my saw cuts. I learned that this time because the joint was too tight. I had to go back with a chisel and clean up the pins. Had I cut to the line in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem. And my dovetails always look cleaner after sawing but before cleaning with the chisel.

on another note, the sugar pine I'm using is awful to work with. It crumbles on the end grain when I chop and is stringy when I plane on the face. It's only one board giving me fits, but if course that's the board I'm using for a tool chest carcass. This board is very red in color with no defined grain. It's like working with balsa or something. I have another board for the lid panel and frame, and it's a very whitish yellow color, and it works like a dream. Think it's a bad board? Or a bad part of the tree?

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In regard to the sugar pine you're using, the softer the wood, the sharper your chisel needs to be(especially when paring end grain).

Hi Curtis,

Firstly congrats on your DT's, they sound 90% there and kudos to you for wanting to get them perfect. As you are working on a very soft pine a very sharp chisle will be required. Not sure if you know what honing angle your working with but 25 deg would be good. As soon as it dulls touch it up. A small dovetail saw rip filed is fine on crosscut work, like any rip file take it steady and let the saw do the work. My dovetail saw is rip filed and I have not yet needed to aquire a crosscut.

The biggest improvement you will find will be practice. I did this article on dovetailng when I build my tool chest from EWP that you may or may not find helpful.

G