best finish for dinnerware

I've done some searches here and on the mighty google, but haven't yet found what I'm looking for. I'd like to turn some dinner plates suitable for occasional use, but I'm not sure of the best finish to use. A simple oil finish seems like the best option for a matte finish, but I'm concerned that hot foods would soften or even soak up some of the finish. Of course it is not toxic, but I'm concerned it would affect the taste. I'm also concerned that moisture would soak in, staining and even warping the wood. Wax would be a safe sealer, but melts too easy. Danish oil would work to soak in and seal the wood, but it dulls with water contact and I'm not sure about the food safe-ness. Shellac is safe, but not very water-resistant and isn't lasting.

Right now I'm thinking fully-cured lacquer would be the best shiny finish that I'm familiar with, but how water resistant is it? Would it soften/melt under something like a hot baked potato or steak? I don't think poly would do well at all. What about acrylic, CA glue or epoxy? Would I want to put them over Danish oil in case the finish is cut through?

I would defer to an acknowledged expert in practical use turnings, Mike Mahoney. I would lean towards his Walnut Oil. It is not the same as the walnut oil you buy in the grocery store. It has been treated to remove the protein. It won't go rancid and you don't have to worry about nut allergies. The oil will cure, and hot foods will not soften it or affect the taste. Avoid any type of a film finish. Mike also advocates no finish at all. Yes, over time some foods may stain the plate, but it won't warp, and the stain will add to the charm.

Robin Wood, also an established turner of bowls and plates intended for regular use, offers similar advice:

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Once the turning process is complete, the bowls are left to dry for around 3 – 6 weeks, depending on the weather and the wood. They are then finished with natural vegetable oil which is applied hot so it penetrates and seals the wood.

After using woodware it can be washed in hot water with detergent and, if desired, occasionally re-oiled using a little sunflower or walnut oil.
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What more can I say other than I eat all my meals from wooden bowls and plates … and my children have done so all their lives.

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See more at
http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/the-craft/using-woodware/

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Originally Posted by Dale Gillaspy

I would defer to an acknowledged expert in practical use turnings, Mike Mahoney. I would lean towards his Walnut Oil. It is not the same as the walnut oil you buy in the grocery store. It has been treated to remove the protein. It won't go rancid and you don't have to worry about nut allergies. The oil will cure, and hot foods will not soften it or affect the taste. Avoid any type of a film finish. Mike also advocates no finish at all. Yes, over time some foods may stain the plate, but it won't warp, and the stain will add to the charm.

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Why would you avoid no film finish? I have some ideas, but I want to hear some reasons that didn't originate in my own mind.

Some limits of film finish: When a knife or fork scratches it, it is no longer a barrier. When it cracks or scratches and moisture gets in, the film finish is a barrier to the moisture getting out.

I look for a film finish only on communion chalices that are only used occasionally and hand washed and dried between times. I use oil finish - soaked in - for tableware.

What I have learned from others is that there are two primary concerns. One is that film finishes on daily use wood ware will eventually get some moisture under the film, this will cause the finish to break down and need to be repaired. Which brings us to number two, when a film finish bowl needs finish repair it has to be sanded back down to the wood and be completely refinished. With walnut oil or similar finishes all you have to do is occasionally wipe on a little more oil and it's all good again. Also as was mentioned earlier, in spite of his developing and marketing his walnut oil and wax products Mike Mahoney doesn't use any finish on his own wood ware. He says he likes the way the patina develops on his bowls and plates from the various dressings and oils that get on them from daily use.

Phil Harris

The Germans use wood plates for casual meals (abendbrot). I eat off of them all the time. I forget what they're called but the name translates to "ham plate", all the ones I've used have film finishes. The new set my mom just bought are film finished too. I'm thinking shellac makes a good deal of sense for this sort of daily use item. My big beech bowls that get daily use are shellac as well and they're at least 70 yrs old, still look great and I've never touched the finish.

I agree on the walnut oil for utensils. My cutting boards all get walnut oil. So I suppose it can be either oil or film depending on the look you're after and how much you want to maintain the finish.

David

Try Dr Woodshop's web site and the walnut oil/carnuba wax product. I use it on almost all my food safe materials. Will need to be reapplied regularly but the product works great, is safe, and easily reapplied.

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Originally Posted by David Linnabary

The Germans use wood plates for casual meals (abendbrot). I eat off of them all the time. I forget what they're called but the name translates to "ham plate", all the ones I've used have film finishes. The new set my mom just bought are film finished too. I'm thinking shellac makes a good deal of sense for this sort of daily use item. My big beech bowls that get daily use are shellac as well and they're at least 70 yrs old, still look great and I've never touched the finish.

I agree on the walnut oil for utensils. My cutting boards all get walnut oil. So I suppose it can be either oil or film depending on the look you're after and how much you want to maintain the finish.

David

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David,

Do you treat the beech bowls with anything to keep them in good condition?

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Originally Posted by Wes Ramsey

Danish oil would work to soak in and seal the wood, but it dulls with water contact and I'm not sure about the food safe-ness. Shellac is safe, but not very water-resistant and isn't lasting.

Right now I'm thinking fully-cured lacquer would be the best shiny finish that I'm familiar with, but how water resistant is it? Would it soften/melt under something like a hot baked potato or steak? I don't think poly would do well at all. What about acrylic, CA glue or epoxy? Would I want to put them over Danish oil in case the finish is cut through?

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Wes we've been eating off of wooden plates for years, ever since I took Mike Mahoney's 5-day Signature Class at Craft Supplies in 2010. Yes Mike prefers no finish or his Walnut Oil. I'm not sure that I could get past not using any finish at all (that's just me). I've used his Walnut Oil on Salad Bowls and it wasn't what I was looking for, but I know the reasons why Mike uses it.

I have plates that I made in 2011 that we use and wash daily and I used Danish Oil on them. It does not dull with water, I'm not sure where you got that from. Water pretty much beads up and runs off because the DO does provide some protection like that. I did apply more DO last year to our plates, which I thought was pretty good (3 years of daily use and washing. You can't go that long with Walnut Oil, just sayin!). I haven't had a need yet to refinish my bowls that were finished with DO. Danish Oil is food safe once cured, which is not the same as the finish being dry to the touch. Just stick your nose right up to the plate and sniff. If you can smell the finish, then it's not fully cured yet. I have tried different brands of DO over the years and some take longer to not smell than others. Lately I've been using my own home brewed DO (1/3 odorless Mineral Spirits, 1/3 Tung Oil, 1/3 Gloss Poly). My wife uses our bowls, plates, and platters for hot and cold food, and so far no problems. At first I was concerned about putting hot food on them, but so far everything is holding up just fine. As Mike says, my wife knows where she can get more if anything were to happen.

Stay away from any film forming finish: This includes Lacquer, Poly, Varnish, Acrylic, CA glue, Shellac, or Epoxy. They build a barrier or film, but once a knife cuts through the film, now moisture and bacteria can get under the surface. The finish will turn cloudy, and the only way to fix it is to completely strip the old finish off. You may have heard Mike tell the story about his early years when he first started out. He used Shellac on everything. Years later he was at his brothers garage sale and noticed several of his bowls in the $1 box! According to Mike, they weren't even worth a dollar because the finish looked so terrible. Moisture had gotten under the shellac film and basically ruined the bowls.

With DO, the thinned oil soaks into the wood fibers, while the thinned Varnish/Poly also soaks into the fibers and seals the pores to provide protection (as opposed to straight poly that is thicker and will form a film). The key is don't apply too many coats of DO or else you will end up creating a film finish. Usually 3 coats is good. Once the finish starts to look shiny, that's when to stop. A little sheen is OK, but don't try to create a gloss finish.

One last question, what type of wood do you plan to use for plates?

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Originally Posted by Pat Scott

Wes we've been eating off of wooden plates for years, ever since I took Mike Mahoney's 5-day Signature Class at Craft Supplies in 2010. Yes Mike prefers no finish or his Walnut Oil. I'm not sure that I could get past not using any finish at all (that's just me). I've used his Walnut Oil on Salad Bowls and it wasn't what I was looking for, but I know the reasons why Mike uses it.

I have plates that I made in 2011 that we use and wash daily and I used Danish Oil on them. It does not dull with water, I'm not sure where you got that from. Water pretty much beads up and runs off because the DO does provide some protection like that. I did apply more DO last year to our plates, which I thought was pretty good (3 years of daily use and washing. You can't go that long with Walnut Oil, just sayin!). I haven't had a need yet to refinish my bowls that were finished with DO. Danish Oil is food safe once cured, which is not the same as the finish being dry to the touch. Just stick your nose right up to the plate and sniff. If you can smell the finish, then it's not fully cured yet. I have tried different brands of DO over the years and some take longer to not smell than others. Lately I've been using my own home brewed DO (1/3 odorless Mineral Spirits, 1/3 Tung Oil, 1/3 Gloss Poly). My wife uses our bowls, plates, and platters for hot and cold food, and so far no problems. At first I was concerned about putting hot food on them, but so far everything is holding up just fine. As Mike says, my wife knows where she can get more if anything were to happen.

Stay away from any film forming finish: This includes Lacquer, Poly, Varnish, Acrylic, CA glue, Shellac, or Epoxy. They build a barrier or film, but once a knife cuts through the film, now moisture and bacteria can get under the surface. The finish will turn cloudy, and the only way to fix it is to completely strip the old finish off. You may have heard Mike tell the story about his early years when he first started out. He used Shellac on everything. Years later he was at his brothers garage sale and noticed several of his bowls in the $1 box! According to Mike, they weren't even worth a dollar because the finish looked so terrible. Moisture had gotten under the shellac film and basically ruined the bowls.

With DO, the thinned oil soaks into the wood fibers, while the thinned Varnish/Poly also soaks into the fibers and seals the pores to provide protection (as opposed to straight poly that is thicker and will form a film). The key is don't apply too many coats of DO or else you will end up creating a film finish. Usually 3 coats is good. Once the finish starts to look shiny, that's when to stop. A little sheen is OK, but don't try to create a gloss finish.

One last question, what type of wood do you plan to use for plates?

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Thanks Pat. I've been hesitant to use DO on foodware - the use case is perfect, but I don't care for the smell. I use a similar blend as you and can smell it for months after I apply it. The water-spotting issue I've noticed only on a buffed DO finish. I always bring my turnings inside and display them on the ledge by our kitchen sink, and sometimes water splashes on them. DO is the only finish on which I've noticed spots after water drops sit for a few minutes. Unbuffed one may never notice it, or it could be the components/brands in my recipe. I use Minwax semi-gloss poly and Crown (big box house brand) BLO and mineral spirits. Maybe switching to plain tung oil would do the trick. If that blend doesn't have the smell and it cures within 2-3 weeks it sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.

Wood - I'm not sure. I milled a couple of 2" post oak slabs a few months ago and was planning to use that, but as it dries it is developing a lot of cracks. Several years ago I milled some thick walnut and cherry slabs that would perform well. I have a maple log waiting to be sawed now and I've thought about laminating a strip of that in between the walnut. I have other options, but I think I just talked myself into walnut with a strip of maple in the middle :rolleyes:

I'm not a turner, but I do make a lot of cutting boards. I use mineral oil - for all the reasons others have stated above. I've used Walnut Oil in the past - but now I stay away from it after losing a sale due to nut allergies. (Although I still use walnut wood in some cutting boards!!)

Once in a while I'll have something that seems to take weeks or longer for the DO smell to go away, but usually it's gone within a few days to a week or two max. For those stubborn pieces I will put them on the patio table outside where the air can blow over it which seems to help. I haven't paid that much attention to it, but I think the one's that smell longer are the ones that I try and apply a 2nd or 3rd coat too soon. My thought is the 1st coat isn't able to cure enough before covering it with a 2nd coat? So now I try and wait at least 2 days between coats which seems to help.

But you're right, this is a downside to using DO (having to wait for the finish to not smell), which is one of the reasons why Mike Mahoney doesn't use it. He prefers to not use any finish at all, but "unfinished" pieces don't sell. So he puts on a coat of Walnut Oil, wipes off the excess, and boxes up his bowls for shipping to the galleries. Walnut oil as you know takes a while to dry to the touch, so I asked him "aren't your bowls still wet"? The answer was yes, but he said his galleries know they have to wipe the bowls off again when they unbox them. Hmm. Walnut oil is quick to apply, and if you don't have to worry about letting it dry first, then for a production turner why not use it.

I've finished bowls with his Walnut Oil before, and it takes weeks to months before it dries enough that when you pick up the bowl you don't have oil residue on your fingers. Close grained woods are the worst. If I have to wait that long, why not use DO that provides more protection? I don't want to pick up a bowl and have oil residue on my fingers, and worse yet I don't want to leave an oil ring on my table. So these are a few reasons why I started using DO. Mike and Glenn Lucas both told me that if they could they would use DO. But for a production turner they can't have hundreds of bowls sitting around waiting for the finish to cure, so Walnut oil provides a happy medium. Walnut oil can be reapplied by anyone, so when the bowl or plate looks dry it's easy for the customer to make it look pretty again. Which is good because Walnut Oil won't last that long and will need to be reapplied.

I know a lot of people use Mineral Oil, but I would never use it. It's food safe, but it's also a non-drying oil, meaning it never dries no matter how long you let it sit. Deft Danish Oil takes a long time to not smell, Minwax Antique Oil only takes a few days, and my latest batch of home brew only takes a few days also so I'm pretty happy with it so far. I used 1 part odorless Mineral Spirits, one part Minwax Fast Drying Gloss Poly, and two parts Masters Blend 100% Tung Oil (that I bought from Infinity Tools). Initially I only used 1 part Tung Oil, but the bottle of Tung Oil suggested 2 parts so I figured why not.

Careful about laminating wood for a plate. It will look pretty, but as Mike says "glue and wood don't mix", meaning eventually the glue joint will fail after repeated washings. It might take several years, but he doesn't recommend the practice. All of my plates are solid wood, I would stick with a closed pore wood (Walnut, Cherry, Maple). In my opinion for a plate a simple shape and design are the best. I don't put a lot of decoration or beads and details on my plates because I don't want food to collect in the edges. Something simple that is easy to wash is what I go for. Good luck and lets see some pictures when they're done!
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Thanks again Pat! Good info. I've read that before, but never hurts to hear it again. As for the glue joint, I'm not terribly concerned. The joint may eventually fail, but the last cutting boards I made have been washed several times a week for about 8 years and show no signs of failure. I use Titebond III on anything that will have water touching it and it has never let me down.

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Originally Posted by Wes Ramsey

David,

Do you treat the beech bowls with anything to keep them in good condition?

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Amazingly I haven't and they get used quite a lot and for many years. I imagine all the salad dressing oils make their way into the grain here and there but they just keep looking more beautiful with time.

David