Lurker with Contractor Saw questions. (Rockwell Model 10 and Craftsman 113)

Hello all. I have been preparing to re-open my furniture shop after closing it's doors due to divorce/machine liquidation. I have been lurking here for quite some time now, reading and catching up on whats new. I had a nicely equipped shop before, but am down sizing the scope and scale of my business, mostly due to financial constraints.

I am a huge fan of quality, vintage and semi vintage equipment. In putting my initial list of equipment together, I am looking at both the Rockwell model 10 contractors saw, and also a Craftsman 113 series saw. I have some time before I can afford to run 240v to my garage, so I am focused on 110v machines for the time being. Eventually, I will be expanding to a larger, seperate shop, but for now, I need to fucus on the one-car-garage shopspace model.

My question is about the saws. while I am intimately aquainted with the Rockwell, I dont know much about the Craftsman 113 series. I have been doing some reading here, and it seems the saw is regarded as a good, reliable saw. While I know what can be done to dial these saws in, I cant seem to bring myself to pop for a saw with the lattice style side wings. Does anyone know if there are solid Cast iron wings available for these saws?

Is the Craftsman up to the task of dimensioning hardwoods? 4/4 or 5/4 rough lumber is normally the thickest I use, but have been known to make trips into 8/4 lumber territory infrequently. Will the craftsman at least match up with the Rockwell, all condition issues being equal? Is this a saw I would be wise to at least consider for temporary production use?

I have a whole other shop lined out once I find a decent location, I just need this to be my stop gap/home use work shop set up. I would be pairing the saw with a good 6 or 8 inch, "old iron" jointer, and most likely a Dewalt planer, 14" bandsaw, and dust collection as my core machines.

All input is welcome, looking forward to hearing your experiences.

John

Read the current Sears thread/s. Not looking good for anything they sell.
Seem to be going the way of Delta. South.

I can't speak to the Rockwell, but I've got a Craftsman 113 saw. Mine came out of a small one-man cabinet shop. He used it as a secondary saw and mainly cut plywood with it. I do a large portion of my work with hand tools and thus only cut hardwoods with it. I've cut 8/4 walnut, poplar, and white oak with no issues, though a good blade makes a huge difference on these and any low-power saw. The stock fence is frustrating at best, but I'm making it work. This involves setting it, measuring from the front and back of the blade, and giving it the old highly scientific knuckle bump until it behaves. Mine spends a lot of it's life with a crosscut sled sitting on it, so this is not a huge issue.

I also thought the lattice wings would be a problem and almost didn't buy it because of this. In use, I haven't had one single problem with them. For what you can acquire one of these saws for, I wouldn't bother spending the money for solid wings, even assuming you could find them. Saw works fine as-is, and if the visuals bother you that badly, I've seen several on the internet that have MDF routed to fit the slots.

Is it perfect? No. If you make a lot of cuts requiring you to angle the blade, you'll do a bit of re-alignment work after returning it to 90 degrees. I rarely tilt mine, and if I do, it takes all of 5 minutes to have it back in business and pretty well aligned. No PALS or other alignment system on mine, just a dead blow mallet and an allen wrench. PALS supposedly help a lot with this issue. I wouldn't expect it to last 10 years running 12 hours a day, but it would be a great temporary saw to hold you over, and you could even keep it with a crosscut sled on it, etc. after you get a new saw. Do the usual check for arbor play/runout and make everything that should move does move. Pretty simple saw. I like mine well enough for what I've got in it.

Thanks Guys,

Will, Yes, what you say in your post is about what I am expecting. I am actually hoping to find an older version of the 113. I am looking specifically at the Rockwell Model 10 and the Craftsman 113. I understand that Emerson made these (the 113) and that the 115 is a Ryobi product to be avoided.

I am pretty set on staying clear of the newer saws from most manufacturers. Both for this shop, and for the bigger shop when the time comes. I have found the older iron to be the best bang for my buck.

Are the web version cast iron wings heavy enough to provide good vibration dampning? I will be putting PALS, Link belt and machined pullys on whatever I get just as a matter of corse. The stamped wings of the Rockwell would be pitched in favor of a cast iron router wing for the left, and a Delta replacement solid cast iron wing for the right....if I get a Rockwell.

I just recently discovered reports on the Craftsma 113 series. Like I said, it seems to have a fairly decent reputation, especially if really dialed in. Regardles of which one I get, it is going to either get my Biesmeyer or my Vega fence that I have stashed here somewhere, so I am good there.

Yes, the 113 is Emerson-made, as is the Ridgid saw that looks curiously like a craftsman 113 with gray/orange paint. Hope I don't overstep any forum boundaries on price discussion with this... I paid $250 for mine and that was about $100 more than I should have paid according to what I've seen them for since then. Even at $250, it's a killer saw, but I wouldn't bother with throwing that much again at it for solid wings. Router table in one wing? Yeah, that'd be a great idea, but the latticed wings it has are plenty heavy as far as vibration damping goes. No real issues there, as they're MUCH heavier than any stamped steel wings would be. If you got really crazy and threw some extra legs under it, you could use the left wing you replaced with a router as an additional right wing as there are bolt holes on both sides of both wings. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely lighter than a Tannewitz or an Oliver, but it's still a solid saw for the money. I've got a link belt and machined pulley's on mine too. Those are worth it! And if you've got a good fence, you'll manage to completely avoid the only thing I don't like about the saw! It's kind of ugly and the dust collection with a shop vac leaves much to be desired, but it cuts wood pretty well for the price of admission. :D

The delta saws tend to carry a premium, I've had a 113 saw and liked it but upgraded to a Powermatic 66. Definitely look for one that has the 1.5hp motor, often they are advertised as 3hp, because Sears was creative with their ratings. You definitely want to replace the fence and get some PALS. The webbed wings are very stout, you can get cast iron wings for around $200 from Woodcraft or $90 for one. The best thing is you can usually get these saws cheep. There is one on my local CL for $30. One thing to keep in mind, before you buy price everything you want to improve, if you start getting around $500 do yourself a favor and go look at the delta contractor saw at Lowes.

Thanks guys.

Can anyone point me to specific model numbers for the 113 series saws? I know there were several iterations of them through the years. Any one vintage stand out as significantly better than the other versions?

I had a 113 saw for years. Picked it up for about $100 IIRC. A fence upgrade was a requirement and I went ahead with the machined pulleys, link belt and PAL's all of which I imagine you are familiar with since you say that you "know what can be done to dial these saws in". I added a 100lb bag of cement wrapped in plastic to the bottom for mass which also helped clean up my cut quality. You can see this in the last picture; I dug these out of the "way-back machine" folders in the dusty archives of my computer ;-)

Attachment 300594Attachment 300595Attachment 300596

Unless you plan to keep the saw for life I would skip the cast iron wings cost and make your own side tables to meet your requirements. I made my saw stationary and added a router table to the side to save floor space. When I upgraded the saw went to my dad who used it for several more years. He got more re-selling the add-ons than the saw would bring and so the carcass went to the happy hunting grounds after a long and very productive life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John McBride

Are the web version cast iron wings heavy enough to provide good vibration dampning?

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Those things are finger killers.

Sears used to have solid extension available. They were like 69.99 each in the tool catalog. Doubt they are still available. As for vibration, the linked belt is usually a big improvement. They were pretty good saws.

I would look for one with a 1.5 hp motor, some of the older, old ones had smaller motors. As mentioned, the saw may say 3 HP, but the motor itself likely says 1.5 hp. Gotta love add people! Used to catch flack once in a while replacing motors on them... that's usually when the owner first found out it was a 1.5 hp motor.:(

Should you run across one with a flex drive shaft instead of a drive belt... just walk away!

By the way the Ryobi's were 315 source... just sold one a year or so ago. Think it was a 315 or maybe a 351 don't remember, but it was very accurate, and cut very well. I just didn't need it with my Griz 1023. Got it on a deal I just couldn't pass up, and made money on it when I sold it.

Glenn,
Thanks. I probably wont be Keeping whatever contractor saw I get for life. But for the time being, I have to make do with down sized equipment, just like when I first started out lo those many years ago. Once things get sorted, and the business is up and running, I will be building a two car garage to replace the single car we are working with now. The contractor saw will then be relegated to dado duty, and a proper home shop will be built.

For now, I just need my essentials to get the ball rolling again. As long as the machines I choose will serve to do the work I have lined up, I will be back, scouring the Craigslist posts for my "new to me" PM66, aircraft carrier jointer, and big mouth planer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myk Rian

Those things are finger killers.

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I have a 113 model saw with the lattice extension wings and I can't recall ever having my fingers get pinched.
Attachment 300597 Once I aligned my saw the cut quality improved greatly. The saw is a little under powered at 1.5 Hp, but for general cabinet making at a hobbyist level it is a pretty good machine. I hated the factory fence and upgraded to a Biesemeyer and it was well worth the investment. I also added a home made out feed table that lets me handle full sheets of plywood alone. I use a thin kerf blade for ripping most of the time and it will cut 4/4 at a good rate. I can rip with a 60 tooth cross cut but you have to take your time and let the blade work. My model number is 113.298720 serial # 7138.P0754. I bought it new.

I believe that the solid side tables were stamped heavy gauge steel not cast iron. My father had the same model saw a few years older with the stamped steel extensions.

A link belt and machined pulleys will reduce vibration. I use a Tilt Box angle indicator to set bevel angles and insure the blade comes back to 90 when I'm done.

I replaced the factory miter gauge with a Kreg Miter gauge.

I also enclosed the base and connected it to my dust collector, which helps keep sawdust off the floor.

They're probably both about the same quality when you come right down to it. My Rockwell Model 10 sounds exactly like Lee's 113 except mine has the stamped steel wings.

Like any other contractor saw, if you get PALS, machined pulleys, a link belt, and upgrade the fence it'll likely do just about anything you ask it to do. At some point you've upgraded it and modified it so much that you start asking yourself if it wouldn't have been worth it to just save up and keep your eyes open for a nice used cabinet saw. :)

I want to thank you all for dropping in and sharing with me. While I am no neophyte, I have been doing the normal hand wringing and weeping/knashing of teeth regarding the outfitting of this new "mini-shop" I am putting together. I had normally dismissed the Craftsman machines as "toys".

I am heartened to learn that I have another option available to me. I am finding that folks around here have an inflated idea of what their machines are worth, so I am consequently having difficulty landing the core machines. Having options is going to be better for me so that I can get back in the saddle efficiently.

Super stoked I found this place, totally appreciate all your input.

A few more thoughts....

I have the 113 that my dad bought in the early/mid sixties... with a little work it has become a very good saw.

I replaced the lattice wings with solid cast iron; these were Craftsman parts I got on ebay; one each side. The CI wings added a lot of weight but I'm not convinced they improved the cut quality any; the lattice wings are plenty flat.

I replaced the horrid factory fence with a Delta T2; huge improvement.

It ran fairly true, but I pulled the arbor, replaced the bearings and had a friend true up the arbor. Now it runs dead true.

I replaced the original motor with a newer higher-power unit.

Also installed machined pulleys, link belt and PALS.

I spent a lot of effort getting it trued up; combined with the trued arbor etc it made a big difference in cut quality.

It handles 2" thick hardwood without much trouble with a good blade. Very little burning unless I pooch something, even with cherry.

I also put it on a mobile base and did my best to improve dust collecting. The base was successful, but the dust collection not so much.

This saw never had a guard or other safety devices; That is the biggest downside. Make your own peace with that.

This was my dads saw, and so it has a lot of sentimental value. Could I have found a comparable saw for less cash? I doubt it.

These older saws are generally well made with heavy cast-iron components etc. They can be had for cheap, and with some effort and investment be made into very good saws. I have