Love for washita stones and alternatives?

Hey all,

As I push further into the rat hole that is sharpening, I think I am accumulating more questions than answers.

I also don't want to buy six of everything just to try it. I'm sure other people have been here before.

So... I have a Norton soft Arkansas that I like very much. That seems to be a nice stone for cleaning off burrs and putting on a dull mirror finish. It will also raise a burr... BUT it is not super ultra aggressive. It will clean off P1000 sandpaper marks, but it won't really deal with machine grind marks or sort out geometry in any reasonable amount of time.

I've got a Worksharp sandpaper disc unit which I also love, but it leaves semi-circular grind marks. The fine papers load up blindingly fast, and it doesn't always produce a flat surface depending on the wear on the sandpaper.

I tried P1000 PSA sandpaper on my surface plate as an intermediary. It works very well and goes fast, but that stuff is like $40/roll. It's also not happy with oil contamination. It also ties up my surface plate.

I tried a fine India, and it's too fine once settled in, and it's VERY difficult to flatten/lap/rejuvenate. I got it figured out, but it requires a lot of elbow grease along with fancy pants ceramic sandpaper.

Then, I tried an actual Norton Lily White Washita. Freshly lapped with 220, it's everything I want. And it's so easy to refresh on P220. The thing is, it settles in super fast, and then it's polishing like a Hard Arkansas stone. Apparently, it is one of those "Hard/fine" flavors of Washita. That's not what I need/want.

So... Do I:
Try out some more Washita stones in the hopes of finding a softer/more coarse one? These are expensive and hard to find.

Try out a Medium India stone? This seems to be the classic intermediary prior to a soft Ark. I am sort of hesitant after my current Fine India, which is VERY difficult to flatten and has settled in considerably more fine than I expected.

Try out a fine Crystolon stone? These are reputed to be very fast and easy to level, but also quite coarse.

Punt and go Water stone? I'm tempted to try out a Shapton Pro 1000, just to see.

Yeah, this is a large reason why I've gotten away from natural stones. They're too inconsistent to set up an efficient sharpening system. At least for me. They work fine, but they're too much work.

I moved onto water stones, and then moved on to sandpaper glued to glass, to avoid the constant flattening and soaking of my water stones. I know they make some splash and go water stones and other options like diamond plates and glass stones which would also solve those problems, but for now I'm happy with the sandpaper.

Basically, you know what natural stones are like now. And if you're not happy with them, I wouldn't keep trying other natural stones expecting to find a huge difference suddenly. I'm not claiming they're all the same. But they're all similar enough that if you're not jiving with what you have now, I don't think traveling further down this path will yield different results.

It's one of the reasons I use a side sharpening technique. I don't worry about how flat a stone is. Side sharpening is usually done by hand, but if I need an absolute straight edge, I use a guide. Sometimes when truing up an abused edge I will use a 1" belt sander with a square block of wood for angle registration. Most the stones I use are Shaptons. Rarely use the 8000 and usually stop at 4000.

This is how it happens in my shop, other people have other methods, what I do is just what I do. Once I've got a tool prepared, it will only need resharpening as it dulls with use. I've got a fine or maybe medium India stone that I use to get rid of nicks or just do quick medium grinding. 20 or so passes and I'm drawing a burr. Next is the Washita, polish the edge, get a burr, flip the tool, get rid of the burr, finish the job with the strop and compound. At most 2 minutes.

I've been using these Washita and India stone for a while, not a whole lot of use since I don't go to the workshop all the time, hobbyist here. But both stones have settled and both continue to work. I've also not needed to refresh nor re-lap the stones since the time I got them.

Both stones took 15 or so minutes to lap using the 90x SiC grit and water, they came out flat and that was it.

If you're lapping your stones with 220 sandpaper, you're polishing them and that's probably why they don't feel aggressive enough for you. Not sure how you're using your stones, if they are not cutting, could they have clogged? Do you use plenty of oil?

You also mention the stones will clean sandpaper marks, are you starting your sharpening on some even coarser medium or a power sharpener?

You may not like the fine crystolon, it wears away really fast but also cuts really fast, one has to be careful to keep it relatively flat. Also use plenty of oil.

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This is the iron of a plane I got this weekend. I cleaned the face with 80 grit PSA sandpaper. Polished that with a 400 and 1000 diamond stone. That is kind of a one time thing.

Next, the bevel was worked with the India, not much to do, it wasn't in bad shape. Then finished it w the Washita. What you see is the iron after the strop. It's very sharp, until it needs sharpening again. I can't complain about my setup, it works for me.

Attachment 517190Attachment 517191

Well, as it's already been said, it's easy to fall deeper into the sharpening void.
I prefer a dead flat reference surface, as opposed to a surface I need to dress before I can sharpen. I use a granite surface plate and abrasive paper.
For me, it's a lot less rigamarole to go through to flatten and sharpen, not to mention a lot more surface area to work on. It's always flat and ready to use.
Just a suggestion, YMMV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John C Cox

So... I have a Norton soft Arkansas that I like very much. That seems to be a nice stone for cleaning off burrs and putting on a dull mirror finish. It will also raise a burr... BUT it is not super ultra aggressive. It will clean off P1000 sandpaper marks, but it won't really deal with machine grind marks or sort out geometry in any reasonable amount of time.

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You did not take to heart what was said before. Arkansas stones are polishing stones. They are not aggressive.

The trouble with aggressive stones is that they are harsh. They leave deep scratches which are trouble to smooth out.

I got a used fine India stone in 1962. I stopped using it after about 100,000 sharpenings, but it is still flat, still the same thickness as when I got it.

I have used Arkansas stones since 1976. None need to be replaced. The only one that has needed flattening is the Washita.

I did take it to heart. That's why I was asking whether I'd be better off with a Medium India, a fine Crystolon, or a waterstone before the Soft Ark. The fine India seems to have settled in too fine to clean up P100 to P220 sanding wheel grind marks. The word on the web is that the former USA made Norton fine India stones were better than the current Mexico made units. That may just be web lore, though.

I've already got sandpaper and a surface plate. P1000 will wipe off the grind marks in a dozen passes, but I'm tired of scraping PSA backing glue off my surface plate. The thing I think is strange is that P1000 sandpaper cuts a lot faster and more coarse than my fine India, but maybe such is life.

Peel off the sandpaper as best you can, but don't work at it too much. If some paper doesn't want to come off right away, just leave it. Then soak the whole thing in a wash of mineral spirits for about two minutes, and after it penetrates what's left of the paper, it'll all come up super easy. I use 3M Super 77 for the spray glue, and the mineral spirits does 95% of the work for me. I can go from sharpening on old sandpaper to sharpening on new sandpaper in less than 5 minutes, and that's swapping out all 6 sheets (grits of 100, 220, 400, 800, 1500, and 3000).

3M PSA seems to come off pretty clean. Dura-Gold, Gator, Klingspor, and Diablo leave a very thick, sticky mess. Of those, Dura Gold is my favorite in terms of performance. A wipe with thinner makes it fairly easy to scrap off with a beater chisel, but still. Never mind the stuff is like $20-30/roll.

My hope is that once I get a decent transitional stone to get me from the power unit to an Arkansas stone, I won't have to use sandpaper unless I'm flattening backs.

Use painter's tape to glue the PSA tape on. The PSA tape peals right off after it's spent. See my picture above.

So... I experimented a bit more. I lapped the India stone again with Shapton coarse silicon carbide grit. This time, though, I left all the black muck on the stone and just sharpened. Wow. Juiced like this, my dud of a stone is super aggressive yet leaves quite a fine finish that was easy to clean up with my soft Ark. I wiped off 120 grit machine grind marks in maybe 2 dozen passes, and then straight to the Norton soft.