Oilstones for A2?

I find myself dreading the sharpening process with my cheap Japanese waterstone and scary sharp methods. Even with a Veritas Mk.II jig driving the process, my A2 chisels and BU plane blades never seem as sharp as they should. So the India medium/hard translucent Arkansas oilstone method described on TFWW seemed like a good alternative. When I wrote them, they said cutting would be slow for the A2 on oilstones and recommended Norton Waterstones, instead. Are the Norton stones that much better than the stones i picked up from Woodcraft?

What do you find is your go-to method for your A2?

Thanks.

Which stones do you have from woodcraft, kings?

Oilstones are slow with A2, but an india stone works fine with it (aluminum oxide in vitrified bond, I think, same abrasive as waterstones but harder binder), and the other stones will work fine with it if they're agitated on the surface.

Eventually it will convince you to use simpler steels with the oilstones, though.

Any waterstone that ends around 4k grit or so should make a tool that seems plenty sharp. If there's any issue, it's probably that you're working too much metal or the wrong metal with the waterstones.

Yep, King stones are what are in my drawer. The mess! The momentum of the A2 train is gong to take a while to overcome. Will the Norton stones or some other option make a difference?

You might consider Syderco ceramic stones or DMT (or eze-lap) diamond stones. There's a good deal on eze-lap stones on Amazon. I've never used the eze-lap stones, only the mini-hones, but I've read where they're about the same quality as DMT. You'd probably want to add a strop or diamond paste if you go the diamond route.

http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-81SF-S...diamond+stones

Yes, the Norton's will handle A2. I've used Norton 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combination stones. Actually, I've never used the 220 since I go to the 1000 after the grinder.

Hi Danny

I last used King waterstones about 5 or 6 years ago. The edges I achieved off these stones were good but I disliked how quickly the Kings would wear (become hollow), and they do like lots of water (messier than most). I do not know what more modern Kings are like. The 8000 Gold created a fine edge, its advantage of ceramics and oilstones being that it broke down into finer grit as it dried. I imagine that even a 4000 stone could be made to work like a 6000-8000 stone.

Having said this, I believe that working the more abrasive steels requires as much attention to method as to the medium. You mentioned using a Mk II honing guide. If I was doing so (and I use this same guide for honing BU plane blades), then the focus must be on reducing the amount of steel to be honed to a minimum. That means only working on a microbevel. For a honing guide, this equates to a secondary bevel and never the full bevel face. Are you doing so?

From every report, few appear comfortable using oilstones beyond O1 steel. I would place A2 and the nearly released LV PM-V11 steel in the same category for sharpening, and these are in a more difficult category, especially with oilstones. It can be done, but with more effort.

My advice would be to look at your technique (e.g. my preference is to work with hollow grinds) and marry your steel to more modern sharpening media.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I just got some oil stones and have a few a2 blades. I have not tried sharpening the plane blades yet but did try some of my narex chisels with good results. I am curious when you guys say longer what that might mean in terms of time or passes. Is it a factor of 2 or so or are you talking more than that. I got a set of stones from natural whetstone company and really was impressed with the quality of the stones.

Just make sure you use the stones to work a small amount of the metal on the A2 blades. If one of your stones is a medium india or something like that, do the bulk of stone work with it. If they're all novaculite stones (soft ark, hard ark, etc) then use something to agitate the surface of the stone and they should cut OK.

Take full advantage of a grinder or whatever else to keep the amount of metal worked by the stones to a minimum.

+1 to what's been advised!

IMO, the medium used (oil stones, India, waterstone, etc) is really preference; BUT, the main difference is S P E E D . Any of these mediums will work once you know how to use them (hollow grind and micro bevels). So, the speed (hence, ease) of sharpening is really what attracts each of us to a medium (umm, cost, too). I've sharpened my LN A2 chisels on oil and water stones. My Sigma Powers and Choseras are much, much faster than my oil stones. My former Nortons were faster than the oil stones, too. Just my 2 cents.

Pretty much what Dave said. You can get a good edge in A2 without a lot if fuss using oil stones if you go about it correctly. This is a situation where you REALLY want to be using micro bevels, hollow grinds or both. Definitely, use an India for the initial refining (to raise the burr). A soft ark, I find, just isn't that effective on A2, even when scuffed/slurried. It will work, but I just find its quicker and easier to just drop down to the medium India with A2. I like to follow the medium India with the soft but you can skip that step. When you get to the hard trans or black you will want to raise up very slightly and hone micro bevel. Only a few strokes here. This is not secondary bevel that grows and grows. Its just one you polish on each time you hone and removed each time you drop back down to the India. Actually as your HTA wears in you'll probably prefer to do this lift on all steel as it pretty much guarantees that you effectively remove the scratches from the coarser stone(s).

I can confirm that you can sharpen A2 to an extremely fine edge with Arkansas oilstones and a leather strop with honing compound. The difference in my hands b/t the oilstones and the norton waterstones (I use the 1000g, 4000g and 8000g versions) is that even a fine translucent arkansas isn't as fine as the norton 8000g waterstone.

If I'm using the oilstones, the result from the translucent is a somewhat hazy surface and not quite as sharp. Once that surface has been over the leather strop a few times, I can't tell the difference b/t a tool sharpened on the Norton w.s. and the oilstone.

In regards to speed, there's good reason to plunk down the dinero for a grinder. My general procedure for tools where a hollow bevel doesn't matter (i.e., non-carving tools) is to grind the bevel hollow, then go directly to the 8000g Norton. 4 to 5 passes on the Norton 8000g is all that is required to produce a beyond-sharp tool, whether A2, D2 or O-1. In the case of oilstones, the procedure is similar - hollow grind, translucent arkansas (perhaps 7 to 10 passes) and leather strop. Done.

If it's a carving tool, then I avoid hollow-grinding unless I have a severe knick in the edge. These are sharpened exclusively on a soft arkansas and translucent arkansas followed by a leather strop. If I do have to grind the edge, then it's hollow-grind, lots of work on a coarse India to remove the hollow-grind, then soft arkansas, translucent arkansas and leather strop.

The only consideration that would give me pause with regards to the tougher, more abrasion-resistant steels and oilstones is the initial polishing of the back. In my hands, the typical back of a L-N plane blade, chisel, etc... takes about 10-15 minutes of work on the 1000g, 4000g and 8000g Norton water stones. I've tried doing this on arkansas oilstones, and it took a lot longer - perhaps an hour going through the progression of grits.

Since you already have waterstones for this one-off purpose (polishing the backs of new tools), then I doubt you'll decide the oilstones are too slow no matter what steel the tool is made of. That's if you hollow-grind. If you don't, then you should consider it. If you don't grind, then sooner or later your flat bevel is going to become so convex that you have to spend a very long time at the coarse sharpening stone re-establishing the bevel angle.

Everyone, thanks for your advice. It all seems to be settling around this one theme:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derek Cohen

. . . look at your technique (e.g. my preference is to work with hollow grinds) and marry your steel to more modern sharpening media.

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A hollow grind is the first step on some of my chisels and plane blades, but the A2s haven't touched the grinder. This may be more a matter of deference to the flat grind that they come with--maybe a fashion choice more than a practical one. My practice has been to microbevel them--the LN chiesels and block plane blades as well as LV BU blades. It sounds like I have been overdoing it, though, going though various grits on either the primary or secondary bevels. The simpler method of going straight to 4-5 passes on the 8000 grit waterstone (or 7-8 on an HTA) sounds like an attractive solution. For one thing, the 8000 grit stone does not require soaking; it can be used immediately, after only a splash of water. Correct?

Mr. Cohen, does "more modern sharpening media" mean Norton waterstones (rather than Kings)? Or do you mean Shaptons or some other media?

Thanks.

Hi Danny

If you want more speed in honing then you need something more modern than the old Kings. At the lower cost level, Norton have a decent reputation. At a higher level there are Pro Shapton and Sigma. Keep in mind that the aim here is increasing efficiency, and this becomes more apparent as the abrasion resistance of the steel goes up. Recent experimentation with the PM steels has shown that they are unlikely to be marketed to the woodworking community (outside turning) as they are too difficult to sharpen. The work done by LV in producing their PM-V11 blades instead indicates the interest in creating steel that works on existing sharpening media.

And, as I and others have already mentioned, minimizing the amount of steel is equally important. A micro secondary bevel will do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks. With the light of day and a re-examination of the tools at hand, two problems became apparent. 1. The secondary bevel was far from micro. 2. The King's were not flat. So, I'll go another round with the Kings.

Step 1: Flatten the stones with 120 sandpaper glued to a granite plate. (This took longer than expected, particularly with the 8000.)
Step 2: Establish a clean edge with the 800 grit stone (I don't have a 1000) at a +1 degree secondary bevel (rather than reworking the full primary bevel). As in the past, this was messier work than I find enjoyable.
Step 3: Hit the 8000 grit stone for very few strokes at +2 degrees, then removed the burr (although there wasn't much of one to remove).

Results--easy sledding:

Attachment 254718

Granted, these shavings aren't as beautiful as some, but they are among the best this workshop has seen.

On to a few more blades!

Oh, you have a king 8k. There's really no reason for you to go to anything else to sharpen then, unless you're chasing edges. An oilstone will be substantially harder to use to a good finished edge on A2 than is the king 8k.

If you feel at some point you need to chase some extreme sharpness, just let the surface of the king dry off after you've finished your edge and keep burnishing both sides of the bevel until you're happy.

For your schedule above, I would add more degrees of difference between step one and two, even if it means making step 1 more shallow.