Shop Tour #2: The Kindt Collins 2SP Spindle Sander.

Today, I will post both shop tour #1 and shop tour #2. You can find shop tour #1 at this URL:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24608

Now onto shop tour #2... The Kindt Collins 2SP oscillating spindle sander.

I got this sander used at an industrial auction in WI. The Wisconsin Patternworks Company was located in Racine WI and had been doing business for about 100 or so years until the bankers decided it was quits. They wanted the tenants out so fast that they hired a company to cut a hole in the second story building to remove the machines for $12,000 dollars. The old freight elevator that hauled these machines up to their noble perch was deemed unsafe to move heavy cast iron. Party Poopers!:D They got all this stuff up there didnt they?

This is one of the finest oscillating spindle sanders ever made and it is unique in a few features which I will describe later as we go. The first photo is a side view of the sander. As you can see, it has a fab steel body and a cast iron top. There are many other sanders out there but this one was the preferred spindle sander used by patternmakers.

In the second photo, you can see the side mounted crank which is used to tilt the spindle to an angle. You can also see the controls on the front side.

The third photo shows a better layout of the controls you get. First of all, you get a green start button and a red kill button. These are pretty obvious. But then you get two toggle switches to the left of the start and stop. The one that says LIGHT controls the light bulb which is used to light up the tilt indicator reticle which I will cover later. The second one controls the second motor.

Most spindle sanders use a transmission to control oscillation. This one does not. It has two discrete motors. One controls the oscillation and the other one controls the rotation. I can turn off oscillation if I so desire. Why? Well, I can turn some unique goofy looking spindle on the lathe from say bass wood and then over it with pressure sensitive sandpaper. Drill out the center and mount it on a spindle. Now, with oscillation off, this sander has now become a custom shape sanding shaper. This was a feature that the aerospace guys used to love.

Sanding spindles come in many sizes. But the smaller ones of less than 3 in should be run at higher speeds such as 3600 ish RPM and the larger ones that are 3 in and larger should be run at lower RPM such as 1800 ish RPM. There is a lttle door under the on/off switch which contains a tiny knob and lever. With the sander off, I can pull or push this knob to run the sander at ether high speed or low speed. The cover is there to prevent me from accidently bumping it with my leg, etc. and changing speeds on the fly. This would be a bad thing.

Now, lets get on to photo #4. In this photo, you see a macro shot of the tilt reticle. This is a tiny window recessed into the cast iron top of the sander. When you turn on the light, you can peer down this to monitor the exact angle to which you tilt the spindle. In the 5th photo, you can see what this might look like. This was a hard shot to shoot as the camera was peering down this hole. The reticle is actually about 1.5 feet below the surface of the machine and the lens actually magnifies the image a bit. This allows you to get very precise angle settings which is great for doing highly precise pattern work. I use this feature to establish draft on very curved pattern parts. Clearly, for most woodworking, this level of accuracy is not needed. But I consider myself lucky to have found this sander and its brother at this auction. The brother is my kindt collins 30 inch disc sander which I will cover in a later shop tour. I am doing work on it right now and it needs to be put back together.:rolleyes:

Lastly, the largest of the two spindles is 3 in and 4 in in diameter. These spindles are actually not rubber but metal. Aluminum to be exact. I did not get the 4 in spindle with my sander. Clearly, it had walked away years ago as these things often do. These larger spindles are metal drums that slip over spindle cores. They are actually 4 segments that interlock to form a circle and when you tighten the top nut, they push the sides outward securing the the paper cylinder. I have taken my 3 in one apart and started to make a 4 in one. In so doing, I found that I actually like the looks of brass better than aluminum so I am now trying to finish both a new 3 in and 4 in metal spindle both made of brass and steel. The brass is also a bit more wear resistant than the orig. aluminum.

Hope you guys enjoy seeing this spindle sander as it is unique. I was blown away when I saw my first one of these. There are heavier ones out there but for pattern shop and cabinet shop use, this one is a clear winner. Even in its old grey and tattered clothes.:p

Dev, very cool piece of machinery. Just how old is that piece? I didn't realize that OSS's had been around for more than 20 years or so. Very nce, looking forward to more!

Corey

Thanks Dev

Now I have somthing else to look for..LoL ...I WANT ONE !!!!! I LIKES IT MAN!!!
I have been looking for a older american made oscillating spindle sander for some time now. I like yours because the Iron top looks so large ! (More support area for those bigger jobs)
(NICE MACHINE) Seth,....

Dev - Kewl machine. I know your feelings on pattern shop equip. I picked up a State brand OSS, which goes from a 1/4" (I think) spindle to a 3" spindle, but has a tilting table as opposed to a tilting spindle. One motor only. I haven't used it yet, but when I turned it on, it was quiet as a church mouse, and passed the nickle test without hesitation. I came with a large box of sleeves, about the size of a case of toilet paper. I think the sleeves cost more than I paid for it. It is 3 phase, so there was not a lot of competition for it. Because of the tilting table, the table inserts are oval, and very nicely machined. I was told that the State brand was pretty standard fair, but I have done no research yet as to this old guy.

Keep your shop tour going; the drool is flowing freely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Turner

I was told that the State brand was pretty standard fair, but I have done no research yet as to this old guy.

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Alan, you'll quickly come to love your new State! That's what I have and it's great. They were/are very "standard fare" in pattern shops and are quite plentiful in the used market. But, I have a feeling that back in the day, every State owner would have loved to have a KC/Master like Dev's.

There's a thread going right now over on OWWM about spindle sanders (and has been repeated several times in the past). The consensus is that the KC/Master, Oliver, Max and State are all fine machines with overall desirability in about that order. State Manufacturing Company is still in business, so you can still get replacement parts for your sander (tho you'll pay dearly!). Here's a link to the State page on OWWM...
http://www.owwm.com/MfgIndex/Detail.asp?ID=798

Dev, kick-a$$ sander!

excellent machine ! I wish I had space for it. They really are about the best going. I like the tilt feature on it. Now what do you think this same machine would cost today ?


lou

Another Great one Dev,

Thanks and keep em coming.:cool:

This machine was bought new in either 1982 or 1984, I forget. I have seen them go back as far as the 1950s or 1960s and the newest one I have seen was mid 1990s. Kindt Collins was sold to a new owner who has been re-engineering the busniness. One of the first major things he did wad disband the engineering department that worked on the sanders and disolve the group. Today, they sell import sanders for those who need them. Kindt Collins made 24 and 30 inch disc sanders and the 2SP spindle sander. It is clear that who ever designed these not only was an excellent engineer(s) but that he/they had shop time experience using them! New, these machines sold for about $16,000 to $18,000 dollars. My cost for this gem was about $2000 dollars including all but one spindle and a huge bag of sleeves. Not the best buy out there but it runs church mouse still. The only real flaw I have found is the shop done paint job replete with a few runs of paint on the front of the machine. In time, I will restore this gem to better than factory new.

The other spindle sanders you will find are the oliver 381 and 34 series combo sanders which uses 381 parts, the State sanders sold through freeman supply and the Max sanders sold through Tannewitz. They are all good.

The State sanders came as either the B4 or as I recall, the T4. The B4 had a tilting top and early ones were round. The T4 is a bit more like the 2SP. These sanders were most often found in pattern shops as well and offered a more economical alternative to the 2SP. I also believe that the state sanders were actually manufactured longer or father back than was the kindt collins. But dont quote me on this. Here is a URL to a state B4 that was restored by a happy owner. There are pictures of before and after. Hopefully, you guys dont druel to much as this guy did a darn nice job!

http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=2859

The oliver 381 is SUPER MASSIVE! It is actually cast iron to the floor and weighs about 1200 to 1600 pounds. I got one of these a while back from a dealer who snookered me. I was expecting a 2 speed motor and motorized tilt and a spindle collection. I got an older machine nicely painted. But it had a single speed motor and only two state spindles. And the tilt wheel was on the side and not on the front. Eventually I got him to send me the motor I was supposed to get. What a night mare. He said later on that he thought the machine was complete. That is, the one I was supposed to get. Turns out, the aerospace guys needed to do some non-oscillating shaping which is possible with the kindt collins. You just turn off the oscillation motor as mentioned. Nope, not these rocket scientists. They gutted the worm transmission and replaced the spindle socket with a machined solid spindle. So now, it no longer oscillates. Turns out, the dealer was right about this. I have yet to take all this apart.

You see, on the oliver, the motor is unique. What else is new! The motor output shaft is hollow and the outer hollow shaft is fixed and does not oscillate. It exits downward and enters the worm drive transmission which hangs off the main motor/trunion assembly. The oscillating shaft then goes back up the outer fixed shaft and exits the machine at the table surface. There you will find either a thread on spindle shank or, as in my case, a morse taper socket. I hate thread on spindles. They are horrid and known for massive runnout. The morse socket is self aligning. You just take a spindle and drop it in the hole and give it a light tap.

The standard motor was a single speed motor running at 1800 RPM. The two speed motor had extra windings and drum switches to allow it run at either 1800 or 3600 RPM. The majority of the two speed motors were dedicated 440 volt machines so this is something you need to think about here! Dont know why, just is.

So to get this dealer machine running, I will need to rebuild the machine. Take the single speed motor out and replace it with the double speed motor. Then I will need to redo all the electrics and add the two speed drum switch or spend a pile of extra cash to add more modern electrics that may have a two speed contactor. Then I need to add the chain drive internally and the extra motor to tilt the spindle. You see, manually tilting an oliver 381 sander to 45 degrees is twice as much work as your morning stairmaster routine! This was the second oliver I ever bought. Oh ya, if I order spindles, they are $950 dollars EACH from Eagle Machinery. They own the official parts franchise for oliver. So to solve this, I will be spending many pleasant evenings in front of my metal lathe making new spindles.:rolleyes:

Someone once said.. Buyer Beware! This is no more true than ever with used machines. Lessons Learned. Lucky for me, I can make many of the parts I need. But the fact is this. For some reason, you will often find spindle sanders for sale real cheap with NO spindles. I have seen kindt collins sanders go for $500 dollars because they were missing the spindles. Actually, often is the case where the auction company puts the sander up for auction with one item number, and the spindles for auction with yet another item number. And dealers break them up too as they can make tons of money selling spindles back to folks who for some strange reason are missing theirs in the first place! Usually, the rule of thumb is this. A spindle sander will lose half its value when missing spindles. Be expected to pay at least as much for a new subset of spindles as you did for the sander in the first place.

Now, if you find a used sander with no spindles on the cheap and con me with some beer, brats and saur kraut, you may actually get a good deal.:D The kindt collins spindles are just about straight sticks with no taper on them. They self align by using an internal collet in the machine. Much like a router collet on your porter cable 690 only bigger. Folks with bench mounted south bend lathes left over from WWII can knock these out in a couple of evenings.:D

So this is the current picture out there. Hope this helps a bit. But the agony, frustration and effort is very much worth it in the end analysis. I use the KC all the time esp. when making guide templates out of baltic birch. Its pointless to lay out one item after another. Lay it out once on baltic birch and make a template. If your making a set of dining room chairs, like stickley designs, make up the shaper and router templates from baltic birch and destaco clamps. The sander helps here as well. A wonderful machine that I cannot live without. The shaper gets the glory but, as in life, its really the team that finds victory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dev Emch

Now, if you find a used sander with no spindles on the cheap and con me with some beer, brats and saur kraut, you may actually get a good deal.

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I know this is a rather old post, but are there still deals to be had? I just bought a K-C OSS minus all the spindles. Since I don't have the equipment, expertise, or time to make them myself, I'm looking for someone who can. The brats and sauerkraut are probably out of the question for going through the mail, but I'd be happy to send a couple cases of beer from our local North Coast Brewery, in addition to appropriate financial compensation.

Thanks,

Isaac Fisher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isaac Fisher

I know this is a rather old post, but are there still deals to be had? I just bought a K-C OSS minus all the spindles. Since I don't have the equipment, expertise, or time to make them myself, I'm looking for someone who can. The brats and sauerkraut are probably out of the question for going through the mail, but I'd be happy to send a couple cases of beer from our local North Coast Brewery, in addition to appropriate financial compensation.

Thanks,

Isaac Fisher

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Dev is still around. I could contact him if you like. The K-C is still considered the pick of the litter. Individual spindles go for more than you want to pay in the used market because so rare. Complete units go for 3-5K. The State version was actually called the T150 before it morphed into the T-5. I paid about 1000 for a complete except for one small spindle so they are not as well loved. Work well though. Dave

David.

I'd appreciate it if you could contact Dev for me. I'm arranging shipping right now from Florida to Northern California. Looks like I'll be into it about $700-800 by the time the sander gets to my shop. Still seems like a good deal to me, and leaves room to have a couple of spindles made.

Many thanks for the help,

Isaac Fisher