Is a Disston D12 really superior?

I recently went on a saw buying binge. I ended up with four new saws. I acquired a 8tpi panel saw with the notch. I also got a D7 10 tpi, a D8 10 tpi, and a D12 10 tpi.
They are all cross cut saws.

For the life of me, the D7 seems equal to the D12 except for maybe the wood in the handle.
The handle in the 8tpi panel saw is the superior handle with the lamb's tounge. It is most comfortable to hold and the handle is eased on the edges more.

Except for the D12, these saws were inexpensive. The D12 was a $70 saw.

My worn down D23 10tpi is a better cutting saw than any of them, but the recently acquired saws need sharpening and the set needs to be made smaller. They seem to rock in the kerf.

I look forward to messing with them.

Interesting reading:
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html
I think the biggest difference between models is in the finish and the tensioning of the blade. I have 7's, 8's, a 9, 12's and 16's and I don't find any difference in cutting, just in the shape and the hang of the handle.
I look forward to reading other's experience with Disston's different models.
Paul

A No.12 might be better than a D-12, is too new..

At Disstonian it says there is very little difference in any of the steels but folks sure pay extra for them..

I especially like this area of saw-ology because there really are subtle differences between individual saws. Different manufacturers, different models, different steel types, different eras, full width, ship's point, skew back, straight back. There are some I avoid because they are in the saw collector nirvanah stratosphere. I sometimes find No. 12s in the wild, but I never bid on them because they have attained a certain status. There are a lot of really good saws out there. If you like your No 7, use it! I happen to think they arguably have the most comfortable handles. If you're comparing a No. 7 versus a No. 12 from about the 1890 era, conditions being equal, the No. 12 is almost certainly going to be the better saw. Comparing two from the 1940s, the distinction isn't as pronounced. But the handles wouldn't be as nice. Different strokes. . . .

The D7 and D12 are mid 20th century saws with nickel colored medallions. I have a D23 with brass sawnuts that cuts really well and always has.

I think the panel saw is a #7 dated 1896-1917. It is going to be a favorite. The old beech handle has cleaned up nicely. I sanded and bleached it. I don't know if I will stain it and put a finish on it.
I traced the handle on it and if anyone wants the pattern, I can probably get it scanned and make a pdf file. I made marks on 1/4" centers so it can be sized when printing. It is a 3 sawnut lambs tongue handle.

I might entertain making new handles for the D7 and D12, though I really don't know why. With the nickle colored saw nuts, they may not be as special. After I sharpen them, I'll know what I have.

I like my pre-1928 12's. Even though Disston made a big deal about using London Spring Steel in them, by all accounts they used the same steel in all their saws. I don't know if the treatment for the 12's was actually different from their other saws though...

The 12's have a superior handle IMO, and they also have a more aggressive taper grind. Mine all have a slightly thinner plate at the teeth than a 7 of the same period.

Has this discussion ever been settled? Just curious.

I can weigh in on this. I've taken Eric to task publicly and privately on the work he did on this. Eric is the guy who runs the "institute".

He took a single saw of each model and had it tested for hardness and composition as I recall. As most can imagine, taking a single saw from any population and imputing the measured characteristics of the entire population ever made is a ridiculous misapplication of statistics.

I've been collecting saws for a long time, and have probably 75 Disston #12 and D12s. I also have a Rockwell hardness tester that can measure both the Regular and Superficial scales. I'm here to tell you there is a difference! When I have enough measurements on my findings, I intend to publish them, until then, I can just tell you that pre 1928 #12s are much harder. I have one that measures at 56 C! That is harder than some cheap chisels. Further, the blades are ground much thinner. There is a big difference in how they perform and cut. Even the post 1928 blades are harder than their contemporary counterparts. London Spring Steel was mostly marketing hype and at the end of the day there was carbon and iron that made up the steel. A chemical analysis points to the same elements. How that was hardened and tempered is what Disston was crowing about. You can take high carbon steel and make it 40C or 60C depending on how it is heat treated. That is the difference in the #12, along with a thinner plate and a much nicer handle.

Properly filed and set, these saws perform like no other. It is not hype, but reality.

Regards,

Pete

Almost the same as "bevel up vs Bevel down" debates...

Crosscuts...I have a couple D8s, including a 10ppi, 20" Panel saw...I have a couple No. 7s and a D-7......
Rip cuts.....D-23 6ppi, Challenger K-6-1/2.....and The Farmer 7ppi.
I have a few by Atkins, including a Ships Saw. I like the way an Atkins fits in the hands.

Saws for my Mitre Boxes are all by Disston.

Have about 6 "orphan" handles right now,,,,that could use a good home..

Steve,

As it relates to personal preference, I agree with you. As it relates to measurements and real data, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not like the bevel up vs bevel down debate. It's like the earth is round vs flat debate that amazingly is raging in some modern circles.

Just say, in God we Trust, all others bring data.

Apparently, it is not settled.:)

I don't necessarily want it settled. I personally enjoy the conversation.

I rate my D-7 and D-12 to be equal. I love the 7, but am proud to have the 12.

I have an 8pt pre 1928 #12. It is the best saw I have ever owned. It cuts thru 4/4 hard maple with less effort than an 8pt 1930’s D23. However it took me a while to learn how to use it. This #12 requires less set and has a thinner blade which contributes to the easier sawing. That said, it took me a while to realize that a saw with less set is hard to steer back to straight as it has minimal “wiggle room” in the kerf. Rather than ever so carefully trying to start the cut straight every time, I added more set than I normally do. I have been looking for a #12 -5 ½ pt saw for a while now to put in the till next to the 8pt. I bought a 40’s to 50’s D-12 with a walnut handle and it is no comparison to the #12

You may have to find another D7 or 12 and re-tooth it.

I also have a 26 1/2" crosscut saw that is 8 tpi. It is a 4 saw nut handle. The medallion is silver color. It may not original, but it is tight in the medallion hole.
The saw has a nib. It is 8 tpi. It is a lambs tounge saw plate.

I was calling my #12 a D12. It is in fact a 12. It really is a nice saw.