Advice: Next Plane Purchase LN 4 v. LN 4-1/2??

Sorry, LV and antique afficianados - you and I have no argument unless you choose to start one, and - with all due respect - I'd prefer you didn't. I will be buying a LN (unless someone has lost their mind and wants to sell me a Marcou or Holtey smoother at a ridiculous price ;) ).

I'm not an over-the-top neander, but a regular user of my planes, with plans to do even more with them. I need to be able to do a better job with figured woods.

My next plane will be a LN 4 or a LN 4-1/2. I already have a number of planes, but the ones that bracket this decision are LN #3, LN LA smoother, and LN LA Jack.

Either way I go, I will get an extra frog so I have both 45* and 50*. Or, maybe an extra blade ground as appropriate.

My questions:
(a) Given what I already have, which makes more sense to you die-hards - 4 or 4-1/2? I am leaning toward the 4-1/2 - heft and blade width.
(b) Which makes more sense, extra frog or extra blade? Not sure which way to go. Yes, I could get 2 planes, but ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Buy both, set one up with the standard 45* angle and set up the other with the 50*.:D Kinda serious actually, buy one LN and then see if you can't get a rust bucket and revive it.
The only real advantage to me is the width of the sole & blade so if you work on larger panels, boards or table tops etc etc etc the go with the 4 1/2.
I've got a #4 and looooove it. It's my favorite to use but the LV LA Jack is a very close #2, both leave a marvelous finish when well tuned and sharp.

This is a thread that I started about a month ago. Even though the question is not exactly the same, there are some interesting comments.
Tom

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=129901

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Originally Posted by Tom Winship

This is a thread that I started about a month ago. Even though the question is not exactly the same, there are some interesting comments.
Tom

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=129901

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Tom -yeah, I'd read that as it was unfolding, and you're right - intersting observations. thanks for refreshing my memory.

If you are really concerned about figured woods, you can get a 55 degree frog with the 4-1/2

James

I think it will be easier to get a #4 in the future than a #4-1/2. Lots of nice users out there. I would go for the 4-1/2.

I did a "Best Smooth Plane" thread a while back and both the LN #4 and the LN #4-1/2 made the list as well as 39 other choices.

Hi Kent

I would narrow the choices down to the #4 and a LA Jack.

I have the bronze LN #4 1/2, but do not use it that much, prefering a #4 size for the balance. I would also suggest that you get either the 45 degree or the 50 degree frog, but not both - it would be a waste of money as the difference between the two is insignificant. My choice would be the 50 degree frog as an all-rounder. If there is a 55 degree frog available (I think that there is only one for the wider blades), then get that and the 45 degree for general work. I would imagine that changing frogs is a real chore, and you will avoid it eventually. So get the angle that will be used more often.

A wider blade is not the advantage that many expect it to be - just makes for greater effort. The extra mass is a good idea, however, so I'd go for bronze over iron in the body.

The LA Jack is a sweet plane, and ever so versatile (just as you have read, I am sure). I have the LV, which is a larger plane, but I also have the Stanley #62, which is so similar to the LN. I use it regularly. Get two blades - hone one at 25 degrees (for endgrain on a shooting board) and another at 50 degrees (for smoothing really interlocked grain).

If you already have a #4, Id get a good blade for that, tune it up, and get the LN #62.

I do not recommend the #164 owing to its ideosyncratic blade adjustment system, which is a pain in the wotsit. A #3 size is better in a smaller hand or for occasional small work, otherwise it is less comfortable to use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

+1 for the 4 1/2. If you didn't have a 3 I might say get a 4. But since you don't have a regular 5, then the 4 1/2 is a good choice in my book.

The #3 and #4 are so similar that my suggestion would be to get the #4-1/2.

jim

Get the 4 1/2. It is a superb plane.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think you have what you need. With the LA smoother, you could simply buy a new blade grind it at around 50*/55*, put a micro bevel on it and go to town on your difficult wood. But if you are buying anyway, go with the 4 1/2, 55*frog and bronze body! Then you should have a great plane with a lot of mass and that wont rust!

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Originally Posted by David Gendron

Maybe I'm wrong but I think you have what you need. With the LA smoother, you could simply buy a new blade grind it at around 50*/55*, put a micro bevel on it and go to town on your difficult wood. But if you are buying anyway, go with the 4 1/2, 55*frog and bronze body! Then you should have a great plane with a lot of mass and that wont rust!

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Hi David

You are lifting the lid to Pandora's Box. Let's discuss planes for high cutting angles.

I use high cutting angles in many of my planes - Australian hardwoods tend to be both very hard and have interlocked (reversing) grain, a recipe for major tearout with common angle planes. It is not by chance that Terry Gordon began building his HNT Gordon planes with 60 degree beds.

It is a common complaint from many that a high cutting angle on a BD plane is hard work. It can be ... it depends on four factors.

Four factors that make pushing a BD plane hard work:

1. A wide blade.
2. A high centre of gravity.
3. A light plane.
4. A sticky sole.

So the ideal BD plane for a high cutting angle will have ..

1. A moderately wide blade (2").
2. A lower centre of gravity (razee or low body, such as the HNT Gordon range).
3. More mass proportional to the body length (so a short plane does not have to be the heaviest around, just heavier e.g. Brese Small Smoother).
4. A slick sole (either wood or waxed metal).

BU planes (in high cutting angle mode) offer ...

1. low centre of gravity.
2. Most have 2" or 2 1/4" wide blades (versus the 2 3/8" wide of a #4 1/2).

From experience I can state quite categorically that a low centre of gravity BU plane with a 60 degree cutting angle is far, far less effort to push than a high centre of gravity BD plane with the same cutting angle.

Conclusions? BU planes are exceptional in the areas of low- and high cutting angles. Depending on your sharpening method, BD planes may be preferred for the middle ground. (Those who freehand blades on a hollow grind will prefer a BD plane, while those who use a honing guide will not necessarily have a preference - they can go either way).

Regards from Perth

Derek

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Originally Posted by Jim Koepke

The #3 and #4 are so similar that my suggestion would be to get the #4-1/2.

jim

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Yeah, Jim - that was what I was thinking, but I hadn't started a food-fight in a while :D so I thought I'd ask The Creek. That bronze #3 is a wonderful tool.

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Originally Posted by Shawn Patel

+1 for the 4 1/2. If you didn't have a 3 I might say get a 4. But since you don't have a regular 5, then the 4 1/2 is a good choice in my book.

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Shawn - same reply for you as Jim K - that was my thinking also. Every so often I think I don't need the LA #5 - least used of the gang - but the LA jack is a lot longer, and the old adage "never sell land" seems appropriate to change to "never sell LN planes".

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Originally Posted by Derek Cohen

Hi Kent

.......get either the 45 degree or the 50 degree frog, but not both - it would be a waste of money as the difference between the two is insignificant. My choice would be the 50 degree frog as an all-rounder. If there is a 55 degree frog available (I think that there is only one for the wider blades), then get that and the 45 degree for general work...........

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Derek - all 3 available for 4-1/2. Good advice - thanks for the time.