NordFab: Connecting Flexible-hose to the rolled edge.

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01-31-2016, 2:54 PM
Karl Fife

NordFab: Connecting Flexible-hose to the rolled edge.

Question:
Does anyone know whether the "rolled-end" of a 6" Nordfab duct can be forced onto 6" flexible hose?

I know Nordfab makes a special adapter for connecting the rolled-end to flexible hose, but in my situation I know I'll be changing things soon, gradually eliminating some 6"-pipe-to-6"-hose connections. I don't have the space/funds to buy/store needless/obsolete adapters. Anyone know it's possible to make them fit, even if it's a bit ugly?

I know that on 4" hose it's not 'officially' possible to make them fit without an adpater (though I can imagine that SOME makes of 4" hose may fit), but in my case, I'm specifically asking only about 6". Geometry dictates that as the hose diameter gets larger, the better chance it can be made to fit without and adapter.

Any opinions?

-Karl
02-01-2016, 5:24 PM
Patrick Walsh

I got some 6" flex over a piece of 6'"cut" straight pipe. It was pita wut i did it.

Since i have just used the adapters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

Question:
Does anyone know whether the "rolled-end" of a 6" Nordfab duct can be forced onto 6" flexible hose?

I know Nordfab makes a special adapter for connecting the rolled-end to flexible hose, but in my situation I know I'll be changing things soon, gradually eliminating some 6"-pipe-to-6"-hose connections. I don't have the space/funds to buy/store needless/obsolete adapters. Anyone know it's possible to make them fit, even if it's a bit ugly?

I know that on 4" hose it's not 'officially' possible to make them fit without an adpater (though I can imagine that SOME makes of 4" hose may fit), but in my case, I'm specifically asking only about 6". Geometry dictates that as the hose diameter gets larger, the better chance it can be made to fit without and adapter.

Any opinions?

-Karl
02-01-2016, 5:53 PM
Karl Fife

That's very Interesting. So not only was it a PITA, but it was a pain EVEN WITHOUT having the rolled edge! That's not at all what I was expecting to hear. I really appreciate the feedback!

Follow up question: Do you use the NordFab blast gates? If so, do you buy the style with rolled-edge on one side, flex-hose type connector on the other? As I understand it, that's a product that's offered, and I could see how that would kill two birds with one stone. Or, do you just put a separate hose adapter on the blast gate to maintain some 'flexibility' should you need to change things around?
02-01-2016, 8:30 PM
Patrick Walsh

Maybe i comfused your question?

It was a while ago now that i put a piece of flex on a piece of straight pipe that i had cut. No way you could get a flex hose over the rolled edge!

The hose adapters with the rolled or ribbed edge also not a 123 piece of cake work really well. After doing a number of them i have them figured out and can put them on in short order.

I know nothing of the blast gate with one rolled edge and one ready to fit flex hose. I take my blast gates to a hose reducer then to a flx hose adapter. use hose adapters on my blast gates.

Hope that helps. Nordfab is great but man it gets expnsive. Everytime i add a machine i have just come to expect i will spend $300-$500 to duct it in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

That's very Interesting. So not only was it a PITA, but it was a pain EVEN WITHOUT having the rolled edge! That's not at all what I was expecting to hear. I really appreciate the feedback!

Follow up question: Do you use the NordFab blast gates? If so, do you buy the style with rolled-edge on one side, flex-hose type connector on the other? As I understand it, that's a product that's offered, and I could see how that would kill two birds with one stone. Or, do you just put a separate hose adapter on the blast gate to maintain some 'flexibility' should you need to change things around?
02-01-2016, 8:55 PM
Karl Fife

Expensive indeed. Perfect example: not only do you need to buy a blast gate for $45 instead of $20, but you need 2x $9 clamps and now, a $29 hose adapter. So, instead of $20, it's ~ $90. Plus bulky/heavy, thus commonly LTL shipping... and tax. By the time you run pipes, you could nearly put a cheap DC at every machine :-)

It appears McMaster-Carr inventories this stuff. Being in Chicago, I can drive out and get it will-call. Fast, and with no shipping charges. But for that McMaster's components are a bit more expensive than the same thing from ductingsolutions.com or some such. I'll have to price it out after I put together a materials list. Anyone want to buy a spare kidney?

Thanks again for your help!
-Karl

No wonder so many guys use PVC.
02-01-2016, 9:15 PM
Darcy Forman

I use the six inch Nordfab hose adaptor fittings all over my shop. I only use six and eight inch in my system. The six inch flex hose from lee valley fits perfectly. If cost is a big factor then, I wouldn't suggest Nordfab fittings. They are not cheap. Cost wasn't my factor for picking Nordfab. I had other criteria.
02-02-2016, 12:00 AM
Karl Fife

Thanks for the Lee Valley tip. I didn't think to buy 6" hose from them. It's the only thing they have in 6".

Question: Do you run 6" flex to most/all of your machines?

I have a Laguna bandsaw that's got a metric dust port that's just at about 5". I have been told that running 6" hose right to the 5" opening is ideal because flexible hose is "roughly as effective as a rigid hose that is one inch smaller in diameter". Thus a 6" duct, plus a 6" flexible hose to a 5" port would perhaps be ideal.

Do you do something like I'm describing, for example running a 5" hose to your 4" machine port?

I'd love to hear what you've done, how you like it, and what you'd do differently if you were starting over.
02-02-2016, 11:37 AM
Justin Meyer

2 Attachment(s)

Connecting Nordfab QF pipe to flexible tubing and gates...

Karl,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

Question:
Does anyone know whether the "rolled-end" of a 6" Nordfab duct can be forced onto 6" flexible hose?

I seriously doubt you will be able to accomplish this without a heat gun and pliers. Every 1/4" pull will be a battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

I know Nordfab makes a special adapter for connecting the rolled-end to flexible hose, but in my situation I know I'll be changing things soon, gradually eliminating some 6"-pipe-to-6"-hose connections. I don't have the space/funds to buy/store needless/obsolete adapters. Anyone know it's possible to make them fit, even if it's a bit ugly?

Machine adapters are the same as hose adapters without the bead, so I have been using them in my pilot setup. Same price ($25.00 vs $25.50), basically, but slightly more versatile to me. Even without the bead it is a bit of a hassle, but it becomes easier with practice. I do get some blow-by of dust in the adapter/ hose interface, but not much seems to have made it past the hose clamp. Picture below, I hope.

Attachment 330852

Don't forget that if you are using 6" adjustable nipples anywhere, each one's cutoff will result in a potential "machine adapter". Just cut the 4" end ("machine adapter") off first, then trim to final length for installation using the adjustable nipple. As an aside, if you're already buying a few pieces of pipe (they seem to ship up to ~4x8" /box via UPS) or a lot (freight delivery), a 6" piece of pipe is $43.90, which is 2 pieces up to 30" long, each. Probably a wash in cost vs time/effort, but rather versatile.

Regarding blast gates, Nordfab 6" runs $58.60 for a standard gate. Over at blastgateco dot com a 6" aluminum self cleaning runs $15.55. The 6" pipe fits about 1/2 way up the tapered gate flange, so my plan is to put a 5" Nordfab O-ring on each side and clamp the blast gate in. For conservation of volume reasons, you can't effectively/ easily use a 6" gasket. This is what I did when connecting my G1030z2p inlet to a 7" adjustable nipple...a 6" O-ring clamped in perfectly--very securely held. In the picture below, the O-ring is positioned where it clamps in place with the nipple firmly seated on the fan inlet, one can see the rub marks on the paint.

Attachment 330853

The down side of saving ~$39 (don't forget the 2 O-rings now needed) is the interior brief reduction in diameter and associated increase in turbulence. I'm not sure how great an impact the cheaper gates will be on the flow, but that's what a pilot program is for. :-)

Justin

PS - Prices from the 2015 price list online. My distributor's prices were very close to these, if not exactly so.
02-03-2016, 1:35 PM
Karl Fife

This is very helpful. Thank you Justin.

Do the machine adapters and hose adapters have a smaller diameter than a pipe cut-off? Otherwise, the only difference would be (IIRC) that the hose/machine adapter has a slight bump in it to retain the hose clamp, is that right? That would make sense in light of your statement that offcuts are 'more flexible'.

Do I understand correctly that your nordfab blast gates have a rolled edge on both sides, combined with a machine adapter? It's my understanding that the gate can be purchased without the rolled edge--effectively a machine adapter on one end. That seems like a logical choice given that it's commonly connected to the machine by hose. Did you decide against that option?

So in the picture, I think I'm looking at the steel inlet of your grizzly DC. If so, I'm curious how you got it to float in the air like that. :-) Otherwise, I think you're demonstrating that the DC inlet, being of nearly the exact same diameter as a QF pipe, you simply slid an adjustable nipple over it's OD, and clamped it with a clamp, in the manner you would have joined a QF pipe to a nipple? Yes? If so, it sounds like are you stretching a *one-size-smaller* gasket because the diameter of the DC flange is not QUITE the same size as a QF pipe? Have I got that right?

In the picture of the 45 degree elbow, are you illustrating that you were able to force the flexible hose over the rolled lip? Or, are you showing an elbow, factory-fitted with a hose connector? Or are you showing a curved machine adapter?

This is all coming together now!! In my case, I'm connecting to a jet/powermatic style DC with a metal inlet (5.96" OD). That inlet normally wears the standard plastic 6"->2x4" adapter. The fact that you say you CAN connect the 6" flex to the OD of a no-lip nordfab pipe is exactly the right information, because the DC and pipe are apparently both spec'd at 5.96 OD. Not a coincidence! That, my friend, is a concept! From this, I take that I could copy you in your manner of DC attachment, or (in my case) run a short piece of flex from the DC to the pipe cut-off, because hoses and nipples fit OVER the OD of the nominal size pipe, and machine inlets are effectively just... 'pipes'. This makes sense now!

Thanks to people like you in this forum for helping me to understand. This stuff isn't hard, but *d$*@, it can be hard to assimilate all of the concepts now knowing what concepts you're missing.
02-03-2016, 6:19 PM
Justin Meyer

Karl,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

Do the machine adapters and hose adapters have a smaller diameter than a pipe cut-off? Otherwise, the only difference would be (IIRC) that the hose/machine adapter has a slight bump in it to retain the hose clamp, is that right?

The 6" QF pipe and machine adapters are specified as 5.89" ID, 5.96" OD in the "Nordfab Technical Data" book. The hose adapter is only specified as 5.89" ID. This is a bit tricky to measure directly, as my machine adapters were all ever so slightly out of round and my calipers do not have 3" deep jaws to measure the pipe (also not perfectly round). I used a thin wire to measure the circumference of all three...I am satified they are identical.

That is correct, the only difference between the hose adapter and the machine adapter is the ridge ~0.75" in from the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

That would make sense in light of your statement that offcuts are 'more flexible'.

Sorry about my lack of clarity here. By flexible I meant one could create a machine adapter from the cutoff which was shorter or much longer than the 4" one sold by Nordfab. Cutting a 4" machine adapter down (if needed) is quite tricky and possibly a bit unsafe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

Do I understand correctly that your Nordfab blast gates have a rolled edge on both sides, combined with a machine adapter? It's my understanding that the gate can be purchased without the rolled edge--effectively a machine adapter on one end. That seems like a logical choice given that it's commonly connected to the machine by hose. Did you decide against that option?

I did not purchase the Nordfab gates, only the ones from blastgateco dot com. But yes, with a rolled bead on each side is how the majority of their gates are sold, from what I was told. A machine adapter could then be added, if going to flexible pipe. The gates I purchased have a tapered 1" flange on both sides, which fits about 1/2" into a 6" QF pipe or machine adapter. Just as with the dust collector inlet, I will use an O-ring one size down (5" in this case) on each side, then clamp both sides. Since I am still in pilot project mode, I am going to measure the effect of the gate on flow....somehow. For comparison, I will assume the Nordfab gates are essentially straight through and without any significant obstruction. Ideally, I would buy a Nordfab gate to compare, but my shop/ hobby budget is not infinite, and one needs to draw a line somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

So in the picture, I think I'm looking at the steel inlet of your grizzly DC. If so, I'm curious how you got it to float in the air like that. :-) Otherwise, I think you're demonstrating that the DC inlet, being of nearly the exact same diameter as a QF pipe, you simply slid an adjustable nipple over it's OD, and clamped it with a clamp, in the manner you would have joined a QF pipe to a nipple? Yes? If so, it sounds like are you stretching a *one-size-smaller* gasket because the diameter of the DC flange is not QUITE the same size as a QF pipe? Have I got that right?

One clarification: the grizzly inlet has a slight taper to it. Otherwise, correct on all counts. The smaller O-ring is used to reduce effective cross section, upon stretching, inside the QF clamp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

In the picture of the 45 degree elbow, are you illustrating that you were able to force the flexible hose over the rolled lip? Or, are you showing an elbow, factory-fitted with a hose connector? Or are you showing a curved machine adapter?

The right third of the photo was supposed to show the hose secured over the machine adapter (not that one could see it was not a hose adapter) with some particulate making its way between the two, but not past the hose clamp. For completeness, flow is right to left through this piece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

This is all coming together now!! In my case, I'm connecting to a jet/powermatic style DC with a metal inlet (5.96" OD). That inlet normally wears the standard plastic 6"->2x4" adapter. The fact that you say you CAN connect the 6" flex to the OD of a no-lip nordfab pipe is exactly the right information, because the DC and pipe are apparently both spec'd at 5.96 OD. Not a coincidence! That, my friend, is a concept! From this, I take that I could copy you in your manner of DC attachment, or (in my case) run a short piece of flex from the DC to the pipe cut-off, because hoses and nipples fit OVER the OD of the nominal size pipe, and machine inlets are effectively just... 'pipes'. This makes sense now!

Yes, assuming the DC inlet is not tapered much or at all, that should work nicely...with the advantage of isolating vibration in the DC from the resonating through the system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Fife

Thanks to people like you in this forum for helping me to understand. This stuff isn't hard, but *d$*@, it can be hard to assimilate all of the concepts now knowing what concepts you're missing.

Glad to help where I am able! Sadly, based on my timeline so far, you will be completing your DC system and piping before I complete mine.

Good luck and don't forget to post pics!