EnduroVar II - Ugh

I've used gallons upon many gallons of EnduroVar. It had a very nice reddish tint, brushed and sprayed great, and was very durable. Fast forward. A few years ago, GF decided reformulating it would be a good idea. I don't know who it was a good idea for, but definitely not for the product. It's now clear/yellow. Much worse, all I get is bubbles when applying it by hand, be it with a foam or synthetic bristle brush, both acceptable methods per the application instructions.

Here's a comparative photo of the old and new.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1

Here's the old EnduroVar on maple:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1

And the new version, EnduroVar II:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1

I tried adding Extender to it. Not much better, definitely not acceptable. I haven't tried spraying it yet. But at almost $150 per gallon to my door this is a huge disappointment.

I looked on GF's website for contact info, hoping to find an email address or phone number. All I find is a fax number. Does anyone have a phone number for tech support, or at least a general number? Or an email address for customer service.

As you might be able to tell, I'm pretty disappointed. The company whose products I never had problems with and could once call to talk with tech support, is no longer the same company. Maybe that's the biggest disappointment of all.

John

I added an inordinate amount of Extender to the EVar II. It made almost no difference in the number of bubbles. So then I started thinking about a true bubble breaker and found this one from Mohawk.

https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/med...ma647-1105.png



Does anyone have any experience with it?

John

John - you are travelling the same path as I, as described in my recent thread about Transition to Brushing WB. I failed. Badly. Not to the tune of a gallon, fortunately. I take no solace in your pain.

The Extender also failed for me. Be interested to see how the Mohawk product works, if you go that route.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst

John - you are travelling the same path as I, as described in my recent thread about Transition to Brushing WB. I failed. Badly. Not to the tune of a gallon, fortunately. I take no solace in your pain.

The Extender also failed for me. Be interested to see how the Mohawk product works, if you go that route.

---

Thanks for sharing the pain, Kent. Misery loves company. I've never had any trouble with other WB's. Have you tried Minwax Oil Modified Poly? That stuff flows out beautifully with a cheap foam brush and gives a beautiful finish. Relatively cheap, too, only about $70/gallon. I highly recommend you try it. I guarantee success.

I'm not going to use the EnduroVar II on this project, too important to take a risk in something I don't have confidence in. But I'll get some Bubble Breaker and try it, though, in hopes I can use it for something, someday.

John

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John TenEyck

Have you tried Minwax Oil Modified Poly?

John

---

All over it.

I know that General Finishes water based products are popular on this Forum. I have used a wide array of their products over the years and their solvent based products such as Arm R Seal and Outdoor Oil have performed well. I can't say the same for their water based finishes in my experience. I tried their water based white wash stain and almost ruined a large wall unit. The reports on this forum regarding their water based topcoats have not exactly been totally positive either. And at almost $150.00 a gallon? I only spray water based topcoats so I can't speak to a product's brushing performance. But I have breen using Centurion Wood Coatings Clear Acrylic Topcoat for years with consistently excellent results. I am currently spraying a new kitchen we built using this product and the cost was $53.00 and change per gallon with free delivery from my local supplier. The material sprays right out of the can, sprays like conventional lacquer, dries about as fast as conventional lacquer, and is as durable as pre-cat solvent based lacquer. The only difference seems to be that you have to scuff sand between coats since it won't burn in like solvent based lacquer. My rep says you can topcoat without scuff sanding if done within an hour or two, but I have yet to try this.

GF's other WB topcoats spray very well for me, never a problem, dozens and dozens of gallons. As for complaints, I've seen plenty of complaints for several companies. $53 definitely is an attractive price, almost too good to believe for something that's durable unless you're getting pro pricing. Even then, it's very low cost. Have you tested it against common cleaners and grease? I see it listed at $82/gal on their website.

WB stains are a tough transition from OB, for sure. I'm not entirely happy with any of them. I have used several of GF's successfully, but it wasn't as easy.

John

Kent, here's three coats of MW Oil Modified Poly on mahogany and maple, applied with a cheap foam brush. I scuff sanded with 325 grit between coats.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1

Through GF's Facebook forum I finally was able to correspond with someone at GF. They pulled a retainer sample from the batch number the gallon I got came from and, of course, I was told it tested fine. No surprise; I wouldn't expect companies to knowing ship bad product. But something definitely was bad with what I got so there's a problem somewhere. I offered to send them the gallon I had, but got no reply to the offer during our correspondence. I take that to mean GF knows about the problem.

The guy I corresponded with offered to send me a replacement gallon of EndurVar II, or a gallon of High Performance. At the risk of repeating the whole saga, I asked for a gallon of EV II. It arrived today, along with a gallon of High Performance. Wow, that was a pleasant surprise. Now it gets interesting. I opened the gallon of EV II. In the photo below, on the left is the gallon of EV II I used that I had the problem of bubbles with, and on the right is the replacement gallon received today.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1

Clearly, they are different. The oil modified polys I've seen are yellow, like the one on the left. On the other hand, that's the one I had all the bubbles with. The new one, on the right, brushed on bubble free. The color difference reminds me of the EM-8000CV I have that's yellow, and then Andrew posted a picture of a gallon he had that's white. How the same product can have such different colors is a mystery to me unless one of them is off-spec.

It was too late today to update GF about this, but I will next week.

John

Turns out, the new one has bubbles, too, just fewer of them. I tried both a foam and a synthetic bristle brush, with no difference. I'm going to try filtering some of it to see if most of them are agglomerates and not bubbles, although they sure look like bubbles. Which makes me wonder about the retainer GF says they checked. I wonder if they keep samples of all the sheens, or just the base, gloss one?

Yea, that level of "color difference" surely would raise my "spidy sense"!

Foam brushes are aptly named.

I'm not familiar with this particular product, but applied many, many gallons of various waterborne finishes in my former life as a painting contractor. You can't play with them. Three brush strokes--one to put it on heavy, one to put it where you want it, one to tip it off. Don't try to "work it in." Over-brushing just works air into the wet film. Waterborne products, especially the thicker, heavier ones, need to go on a bit heavy to properly flow out and level. Also, don't wipe the sides of your brush bristles on the rim of the container you're using--that forces air into the bristles and doesn't give you much product to put on. Instead, dip the brush 1/2" or so into the product, then tap the ends of the bristles on the side of the container. This spreads the bristles out so they hold more product by surface tension between the bristles, and keeps the product near the end of the bristles where you need it. This technique works for paint, too. Most people I see painting/finishing with a brush scrape almost all the product out of the brush on the rim of their container, keeping the bristles in a pointy wedge, which means they don't put enough product on, then overwork it trying to get it out of the brush.

I'm not saying you do or don't do these things--I've never seen you work--but I'm going off the averages, and sharing what has worked for me for years.

Jason, John primarily sprays these finishes, as do I.

I spray when I finish with WB's, but use a brush to make samples. I've never had any trouble with other products, just EV II. The specimens I showed above for EV original and MinWax Oil Modified Poly came out beautifully, as they do when I use Enduro Clear Poly and several other products using a foam brush. With EB II it didn't matter if I useded a foam brush or a synthetic one, both produced bubbles either as I let it flow on or the second stroke, before I could get a film spread out that wouldn't run on its own. Per GF's application guidelines:

• Hand application: Apply a liberal amount of product using a synthetic bristle brush, foam brush, pad applicator, or roller along the wood grain with smooth, even strokes & light lap lines. Avoid pressure and back brushing. Lap lines will tighten down as they dry.

I looked at the surface with a jeweler's loupe and the defects definitely are bubbles. There's a problem when a product can't be applied per the manufacturer's recommendations. There's also a problem when two cans of the same product don't look or smell anything alike. If I get the motivation, I may try spraying it to see if it behaves any better.

John

I decided to trying spraying both cans of EV II. The old (yellow) stuff had a viscosity of 28 seconds through a #4 Ford cup. The new (white) on was 30 seconds. I used a 1.0 mm needle to spray them.

The new stuff sprayed fine, without defects, and sanded to powder in two hours. After three coats it looked like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1


The old stuff didn't lay down nearly as well and was close to orange peel. Worse, it had bubbles in every coat. This is what it looked like wet after the second coat:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1


This is what it looked like dry after 3 coats:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=1

I don't know which can represents good EnduroVar II, but the yellow stuff is unusable. The white stuff can't be brushed but sprays well. I'll test it for durability after a few weeks. It will have to be bulletproof for me to consider buying it again, assuming the white stuff is what EnduroVar II is supposed to be.

John