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Thanks Lisa, that's very good information. I have no doubt the supercell would work very well - but I can't convince myself to spend that much money on something that is just a better shop vac. I originally thought it could do double-duty as a shop vac/high vacuum device AND also cover the high volume dust collecting. But having realized that's not the case, it just seems too expensive for what it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Starr
Hi folks - just to let you know where I'm at and in case it helps anyone else in the future:
1) Oneida Supercell and Dust Cobra - both would likely work very well as shop vacs with higher volume, but both are expensive and require dedicated circuits. So I'm eliminating those. If money were no object, I'd get a supercell.
2) Festool - my current understanding is that the CT15 has a smaller filter than the rest and might not provide much improvement in CFM for my use case. The next size up is over $700 - and even so, I think it would give me less volume of air than a shop vac. I don't doubt the quality and features - but I don't care about portability and I'm more interested in small free-standing machines than in hand helds. So I'm eliminating this too.
3) Fein - Price is reasonable - but the reviews are mixed - lots of positive comments but enough people saying they were underwhelmed. And then there's that Toolbuzz reviewing showing low CFM in comparative testing. I believe they were looking at an older model that was discontinued - but the consensus is that the older model was possibly better than current ones. I didn't find any real-world objective tests with the current model. On top of that - to add a Hepa filter adds $130 - so that's starting to get into the Festool price range.
4) So I think this leaves me back with a Rigid shop vac. The larger, higher end models seem to have better CFM than anything other than the Oneida models (based not just on specs but the testing Dan Friedrichs did a while back). It's disappointing that I'll have to choose a pretty large model - I'd hoped to replace my big old shopvac with something more compact. But other than that - it seems like the best choice. For under $250 I can get the vac plus a hepa filter. (Yes - it won't be a hepa-certified machine - but I don't really need that in my small hobby shop).
Oh for anyone else looking - the "professional" rigid vacs (dark gray color) with two stage motors have much lower air volume. They are designed for picking up liquid waste or heavy debris that obstructs the tube. Thus they emphasize vacuum (suction) over volume. So for woodworking machines with 2.5" ports those are not the right choice. The ones I looked at had CFM 1/2 or 1/3 of what the regular orange ones have.
For anyone starting this analysis from scratch - the calculation would be very different if the focus were on handheld sanders, joiners, and similar where high volume of air flow and high suction are less of a concern. I don't doubt that the Festool or Fein would look stronger in that use case. And if my larger machines were actually LARGER and all had larger dust ports, I'd just be looking for a regular DC. It's unfortunate that in this middle ground, the best performance comes from either a big clunky shop vac or super expensive Oneida model.
At least - that's my understanding after a lot of reading and all the great responses in this thread. If anyone comes back with contradictory input, I may put my hands over my ears and go "La la la la" very loudly.
Michael
Sorry you are getting discourage from all this. A couple comments for thought. I have had two different shop vac units and I always HATED using them -- to the point that I never used them -- because they were always so loud and annoying and difficult to manage. However, I love using my Festool extractor. It's a night and day difference in usability. I would not discount that CT15 unit because it has a smaller filter. The specs indicate a 5% difference in CFM. The smaller filter could give you lower CFM when the bag is full. However, the suction power doesn't change even when the bag is full (which is a benefit for the Festool units). It may still be a better option than a shopvac or Fein. If you have read that Festool does not like supporting warranty if you use a 3rd party cyclone like "Dust Deputy", you can still get the Festool CT CT-VA-20 separator if you are concerned. I'm not sure what was up with that Festool warranty decline. A cyclone is a cyclone - it's just another air channel.
The Supercell is a good bridge product. It has enough suction power to equal a shop vac and also enough CFM to equal a low end volume dust collector. It does this with being just one unit that covers both scenarios, but it does cost you. Space is a premium.
If the noise and usability of a shop vac does not bother you, It's up to you if you just buy another one. I don't think the CFM differences between shopvac and Festool/Fein will be anything enough to justify one over the other for your large 4" dust port tools.
Oh, one more thing to think about. The normal Shop Vac units are a pain to clean out, even if you use an internal bag. The filter itself will get dirty and clogged. Cleaning the shop vac filter is a messy and dusty process. With the Festool, it operates like a normal vacuum. The fleece bag catches 99.9% of any particules and the filter is just there as an additional HEPA stage. To clean the Festool, you just lift off the top of the unit, pull out the fleece bag and throw it in the garbage. On my Festool, the main HEPA filter has always stayed clean and I've gone through 4-5 fleece bags already.
On Festool, the HEPA filter is primarily required if you do drywall sanding. In this case, you cannot use a fleece bag and the drywall dust just gets vacuumed into the main chamber and does clog up the main HEPA filter of the unit. These units have the auto-cleaning feature which just causes an impact to the HEPA filter to "shake loose" all that plaster dust.
Hi Aaron - thanks for the comments. I'm not that discouraged, I was just being whiny. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Inami
Cleaning out the shop vac filter isn't a concern - I hardly ever have to clean mine due to the dust deputy which captures almost everything. I definitely don't like the size and awkwardness of the big shop vac though. However, my sense is that I could get as much as 50% higher CFM with the rigid shop vac. I'm thinking the benefit would be on the table saw or router table, which both have 2.5" ports.
I have no doubt the Festool would be much more pleasant to use, but I don't really get the sense that most people who use them do so for standing machines. What do you use yours for?
I use my Festool for hand sanders, routers and miter saw. But I have a really large 5HP dust collector for my table saw and edge sander.
Which dust deputy do you have? The current model from Oneida has a 2" inlet, which means your 2.5" Rigid hose is not going to get that much CFM anyways. How much CFM do you think the Rigid will give you? When I browsed their website, the CFM specs were not more than 130-150 CFM. This doesn't seem like much more than what a CT15 can give you.
Either way, I don't think any of these will be effective for your standing machines that really need the high volume collection (i.e. 400+ CFM).
I just got an upgraded model they have with 2.5" inlets - haven't had it long enough to know how much improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Inami
Every model seems to be different (which may not be real) - but the one I was looking at showed 184 CFM. Whether it's much better than a CT15 I can't say - but more to the point, why spend twice as much for something at best equivalent, if not marginally worse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Inami
Agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Inami