Advise on choosing a J/P combo - Hammer A3-31 or a MiniMax FS30 Smart

I can't speak on the J/P combo, as I don't have one and have never used one. Personally, I would avoid that combo setup as long as space never becomes a pressing isuue. I have a Mini-Max Formula 410 16" jointer with a Byrd Shelix that is, as far as I'm concerned, the only jointer I'll ever need.

But I did buy the Hammer N4400 about a year ago, and it continues to impress. Before purchasing, we considered a number of bandsaws, including a few Lagunas and the MM16. The MM saws are usually considered the best or among the very best, and rightly so--just ask Van Huskey. But the MM16 was $1,000 more than the Hammer and thus more than a little out of our price range. We also didn't utterly require its greater resaw capacity. Until then, we hadn't owned any Hammer/Felder machines, only SCMI and Mini-Max. But after reading some positive reviews and advice here on SMC (thanks, Van Huskey), and after speaking extensively with Ruan at Felder (who is pure class), we decided on the Hammer, and we continue to be more than satisfied with that decision.

If you absolutely must resaw 16", and money is no object (or if you can at least stretch to afford and justify it), then, as Van Huskey says, go with the MM16 or MM20. But I believe that, at its price, the N4400 represents the best value in high-quality European bandsaws anywhere at the moment. Don't let that word "value" inform your opinion of this saw in regard to any aspect but price, however. There is nothing "value" about this saw. It is extremely well built. The 4hp motor seems to have power to spare. I've resawn 11" of hard, figured white oak and the saw didn't flinch. The bandsaw wheels are very heavy, and adjust easily for alignment. The table is flat, and tilts smoothly and precisely with its rack-and-pinion setup. And you can adjust for drift by adjusting the attitude of the steel fence bar with a pair of wrenches. I've had no problem whatsoever with vibration. The N4400 will do everything you ask of it, 12" and under, with aplomb.

I probably can't say enough good things about the level of service from Hammer/Felder. From the beginning I dealt with Ruan, who was always helpful and honest. He won't sell you into a machine you don't want or need, he doesn't bash the competition, and he will work with you on price. Aside from the quality of their machines, he is one of the main reasons Felder and Hammer have become more recognizable and respected names in the woodworking community in the US. After we purchased the saw, we were contacted on several occasions, to make sure the saw had arrived safely, was working well, and that we were satisfied with our machine. I've never enjoyed that kind of service when buying machines from other companies. Considering some of the machines that Felder sells, we weren't even big-time customers. But when we do buy a large machine in the future, it will almost certainly be a Felder. It's important for me to know that if something ever does go wrong, I can make a call and start sorting out the problem immediately.

I am not sure if I have used the word "value" in regard to the N4400 in this thread, if I have I mean it in the best possible way. There just isn't a new bandsaw in the under $2K (or right above) range I would rather have. In fact I personally recommended it to one of the owners in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Chris Lee

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Chris, I see you got the horizontal resaw version of the saw! Maybe thats why you got such a good deal, despite the fact horizontal resaw bandsaws tend to be much more expensive.

Although, I am a fan of the MM series bandsaws anyone that looks closely at these pictures can see the care and quality of this saw, this is not a saw that you will regret your purchase unless you under-estimate your capacity needs.

Hey Van,
I've been having so much fun getting to know the saw, I didnt even realize I forgot to edit the photos. Oops!

I couldnt agree more about the quality, it has impressed me tremendously. Here are some pics (Sorry for my sideways photos - I have to work on that) of the underside of the table as Charles requested and its so nice to see an attention to detail and what feels like pride in craftsmanship. Maybe its just me but that means a lot to me.

I have to admit, I purchased an MM16 back in 2005 shortly after they switched to the 16" resaw and 4.8 hp motor. While it cut well, I had so many issues it i never really enjoyed the saw. Hopefully the MM police wont gang p on me for this, but the MM16 quality control was nothing close to Hammer/Felder in my cases. On my MM16, i had sloppy castings, a very cupped table, a bad switch, multiple bad micro switches and a few other small issues. It was minor for the most part, but for the cost I expected those type of things to be perfect for the most part. After seeing the Hammer, I knew I had found my happy place! Everything is quality. I know it doesnt have the capacity and heft of some of the Italians, but I'm very impressed with the saw and the company.

I thought the A3 31 was going to be coming home for me as they offered me the show demo while I was there, but I've really been thinking about going for a full combo machine. One of thoe decisions I have to tackle over the next 6 months, but whatever I do, will be a Hammer/Felder. I am really glad you suggested them to me and I thank you again for that!

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Chris, MM did have a lot of electrical issues with the first batch of tall resaw bandsaws when they came out. That got sorted out with a change in switches and hasn't seemd to be an issue since. I think you are going to be really happy with the saw!

Van, you did indeed recommend it to me, as well as giving me a lot of helpful, cogent advice on bandsaws in general. I couldn't be happier with the saw and I'm still very grateful for the knowledge you passed on. You had mentioned once to me that the N4400 represents the best value in Euro bandsaws, which means, with a very few exceptions, the highest quality bandsaws being made today. Considering what's available, I can't but agree with your typically astute observation. So much so that I tend to repeat it when I discuss the saw. I just wanted to make clear that, apart from price, there are no "value" aspects or compromises in the saw. It is such a good saw at an almost unbelievable price that the N4400 should be dominating its segment of the market and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Charles B Thomas

List on the FS30 is really $4,295.

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Yeah... my quote on the two Hammer machines was ~$5500 with freight. After I compared options and what my intentions were, I can't ignore all the professonals that use Grizzly and love them. For ~$4k I can get a G0490 8" Jointer with Parallelogram beds, a G0454 20" Planer, and the G514X2 Extreme bandsaw which won the Fine Woodworking Tool Guide 2012 "Ultimate Bandsaw" test. If I upgrade the planer to the "no set" knives and add in freight, it's ~$5k.

My intentions are hand tool work, these power tools are there to speed up the rough work. Anything going into a fine furniture project will see a smoothing plane at the least before finishing. The 12" jointer seems more useful if you cut your own timber, and even then, my need for 12" boards will be small. The larger planer however would be great for case sides and large drawer fronts. The bandsaw isn't as powerful, but I think the only way I'd be able to measure that I needed all 4HP, was if I was using a 3HP and it wasn't meeting my needs.

I ended up building my shop space in Google Sketchup, and I can't fit the larger Grizzly machines in anyway. In fact I think a bandsaw as large as the N4400 is too big.

Being the owner of a combo jointer/planer, I will chime in to say they do offer an excellent value and space savings over their large stand-alone counterparts. I own a 10" JET combo machine, and even though it's trash compared to what is being referred to in this thread, it's still an excellent value, especially for a low-budget woodworker such as myself. There is no other way I could have afforded, or fit in my shop, a 10" jointer. And even though my machine is not very high-powered, it still gives me excellent performance, even when used on highly figured woods.

I point this out only to state that while power and performance should be a concern to some degree, I wouldn't put it over and above ease of use. In my opinion, either of the machines listed will do a fine job, better than what the majority of hobbyist woodworkers have or can afford. What it boils down to is which would you rather swap over and which is more user-friendly.
It is well known that the JET is slow to swap over, but I thought that with it's massive jointing capacity, I could deal with that. To cut to the chase, I now have a 12-1/2" Craftsman granite bed planer which I use, and the JET is now used only as a jointer, as it became a hassle to swap it over time and again.

I really have no opinion on the machines in question here, they are so far out of my budget that I've never bothered to look at them. I did go the the sites and look them over in regards to this thread, and I think you have laid out some very, very excellent machines before us to choose from.
Just be sure you can deal with the hassle of swapping from planing to jointing and back again before you make your choice.

Good luck, I think you have made some really fine machinery choices for sure!

Kenny

A little late to this thread but there have been a number of good threads on this subject lately. The JPs and bandsaws.

Bandsaw Options - Do you all have any comments comparing the Laguna LT-14 SUV to the Hammer N4400? (Hammer has more power, harder to adjust for drift, some negative comments on guides, but superior fit and finish and customer service. Laguna has resaw adjustment edge, better guides? but spotty service and build.) I have thought for the last year the LT-14 SUV to be my dream bandsaw but now I think moving up the price ladder a few more rungs would be a worthwhile investment.

Jointer Planer Options - I have found a used DW735 to look at and maybe a Jet JJP12. I was ready to pull the trigger on the DW735 but have been putting it off. Adding the Grizzly GO706 12" jointer to the DW735 is a price wash to the A3-31. So in my mind the Hammer wins that battle. Sticking with Grizzly for new items instead of buying used I could go with a G706 and a GO453PX 15" planer and I am over $4,500 with tax and shipping vs $3K plus shipping for the Hammer. So again I think Hammer wins the battle in all areas except "conveniance" of owning separates. I am not convinced the spiral heads will provide enough benefit to justify cost. (And yes I have been searching for a used 8" jointer for years and have missed only 1 bargain deal on a Powermatic 4 hours away. To me it just sounds like the A3-31 wins hands down except for some folks who really think separates are the way to go.



Thanks,

David

The Laguna LT14 SUV and Hammer N4400 are in two different classes. The SUV is Asian made and the N4400 is Austrian. The SUV is a very nice saw and worth a look if you are buying a 14" saw but if your budget allows the N4400 it is a no brainer. Laguna doesn't really have a DIRECT competitor to the N4400, their saws tend to be under it or over it.

I have the A331 with the extension tables and I am very pleased with the ease of alignment of both the machine and the extension tables. As stated by others the alignment stays rock solid over time. The sales and support staff have been excellent. I also have the Felder FB 600 bandsaw with an extension table and the Laguna driftmaster fence. The addition of the extension table and the driftmaster fence, which give good in feed support, make ripping thick stock easy and a lot less dramatic than on the table saw.

Right now I am trying to decide between a FS-30 and a A3-31. Felder sent me literature on their unit but Minimax didn't send it. Someone indicated in March the MM unit was $3400 delivered. What are the primary differences between the two units?

Hey Rich - from the research I've done, talking with reps from both companies and a couple owners here are the differences I found to be important to me. There's of other differences, but I think these are the "why would you get one or the other".
Table length - FS30 is about 5" longer on the jointer bed.
Power - each has beefy motors, but A3-31 uses 20amp circuit, FS30 takes a 30-amp.
Dust collection hastle: A3-31 takes extra hose (like 3-5') to flip the tables, FS30 requires moving the hose from one port to another.
Knives - each uses disposible knives: A3-31 is a 12.2" blade avail only from Hammer (and not in M4 steel), FS30 is a 11.8" Tersa knife - avail from 3rd party tooling vendors. Each is quick change and self-aligning.
Switch-over: the A3-31 tables flip as one unit and do not require the fence to be moved (but it looks easier with the fence to the rear). FS30 tables fip individually, and requires the fence moved forward or be removed.
Fence: A3-31 now has a center mount but doesn't look as beefy as the FS30.
Table height: A3-31 is mabye 2" lower than the FS30, a tall man won't mind, a short one like me might.

Don't get caught up with accesories; the ext. tables for the FS30 (same brand as Hammer resells) can be purchased for the FS30. The Hammer digital handwheel seems pretty cool, but for approx $300 other options are available. Each will need a seperate mobility kit - most owners like a long-axis option unlike what Hammer sells.

Both seem like very good machines - I haven't found an owner of either that don't like them.

Charles neatly summed it up with "I haven't found an owner of either that didn't like them".

For me the big deciding factor was dealer support. MiniMax doesn't have good support in my area compared to Felder...........That made the decision easy........Rod.