I didn't mean to say John's suggestions weren't valid,Julie. I'm taking some of his myself. Just tired today.
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I didn't mean to say John's suggestions weren't valid,Julie. I'm taking some of his myself. Just tired today.
I think we pretty much follow a very similar schedule except for a couple of small details that don't really matter much. I think it's pretty standard because it works and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to fix what should have already been fixed in prep.
One thing I generally don't do, though, is sand in between coats unless I really screw something up :)
John,your mailbox is full.
Hey, Julie. Just reading through your finish schedule, I just wanted to make some comments. Just take these as suggestions, and hopefully others will chime in with their experience as well.
The things that I'm not really that hot on are the number of coats, the sanding and the time to final polish. Personally, unless there is some sort of significant flaw in the finish...a run, or maybe some major orange peel, I'm not hot on sanding between coats. I guess it doesn't hurt but be really careful to not try and do too much for the early coats or you'll just sand right through and then you'll be fixing...and however hard finishing is (it's not, but it can be), FIXING is 10 times harder.
I also personally don't think that 5 coats of lacquer is enough for the typical guitar finish. We like to get these finishes sanded flat...and I mean FLAT. No shiny spots left when you're done. Unless your prep is perfect, and your spray technique is perfect, I don't think that you'll get there with 5 coats. My general finish schedule has me spraying 3 coats a day, for 3 days. That's 9 coats. They're spread out over 3 days so that the finish has plenty of time to outgas between coats, and between sessions. You absolutely do not want to trap significant amounts of solvent. The finish will take FOREVER to outgas and shrink back. I'd go less on a flat top acoustic, but my prep work would be absolutely impeccable to begin with and I would still go the full schedule if I had to if I botched up my spray technique.
And that takes me to the final polish. If you wait just 72 hours, I will pretty much guarantee you that however perfectly you flatten and buff that finish, in a month it will loose a good portion of that sheen. If you sniff the guitar, and it still smells anything at all like lacquer, keep waiting. A minimum of 1 to 2 weeks is reasonable, and as George said a month would be absolutely normal. If not, the finish will continue to shrink and squirm around as it looses that last little bit of solvent, and your finish will go from a beautiful, buffed high gloss to a somewhat duller finish. It's just the nature of the beast. Behlen's schedule seems more appropriate to something like a violin where you're really not looking for that ridiculously, glassy finish that some idiot long ago decided guitars should have.
None of the stuff I'm mentioning is fatal. You can follow that schedule and have really great results, but if you want this thing to look that vision you probably have in your head, I think you need to modify it just slightly.
That's just my opinion.
I agree about not sanding every coat. I have not been clear enough about that. Thank you,John. In post #100,I did mention to get a few coats of sealer on before sanding. A "few" is a vague number. Sorry. You could put on more than that before sanding. Certainly you do not want to sand through. As long as the last coat of sealer is sanded,all is well.
John is absolutely correct about getting the sealing operation impeccable before spraying the final lacquer. I do that too, VERY CAREFULLY, because any flaws till telegraph right through the final coats. As I mentioned in an earlier post,,when that finish shrinks EVEN FOR A YEAR,any pores or other defects left in the under coat will start showing right through.
The number of finishing coats may need to be more than 5 ,depending upon how thick you are spraying your lacquer. I mix my own,and have never wanted to use the pre thinned stuff(I don't think you get as much lacquer for your money when it is pre thinned. You are paying lacquer price for extra lacquer THINNER in the can). So,the number of coats is open to question. I spray my lacquer on as thickly mixed as possible. There are so many variables that numbers of coats,etc. can get confusing. Certainly,with the way I mix my lacquer,and with the solids content(which varies with brands) I haven't been putting 9 coats on an acoustic. but,that's totally just with my methodology. Your mileage may vary. As I mentioned,I stayed away from Behlen after it attacked dyed inlays. But,that was in the 60's. It may have totally been re formulated by now. I have used Star brand for many years. It's the prettiest stuff I have ever tried. And,I got it wholesale with a large order I'm still using.
Certainly you don't want any shiny spots after sanding. But,on acoustics I do keep the number of coats to a minimum. The thicker the finish,the more it kills tone. Also,the worse the finish will craze if it ever gets real cold. A few years ago I had to refinish a guitar I made because the power was accidentally turned off in a mountain vacation cottage where the guitar was left. At least the guitar didn't split open. It really froze though,and crazed the finish.
Thanks again guys! When I tell people John and George are helping me build the guitar they looked startled. "Where's Paul and Ringo?" http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse5f59873.gif
Yesterday I was laying down some coats over five different samples - Trans Tint dye in yellow, orange, golden brown, red and no dye. I just wanted to see how the colors looked on the wood. I cut a lot of corners because the finish didn't matter, only the color.
After the dye, I wiped a 2# cut of garnet shellac then waited a couple of hours. I lightly sanded with 220 then started spraying gloss lacquer out of a can. I probably laid down 4-5 coats. The orange peel was substantial and made it hard to get a really good image of the different tones. So I sanded the lacquer smooth with 220 and laid down another coat on each of the five samples. Orange peel wasn't as bad but it still impaired the view. Lacquer was still seeping into the pores.
I didn't use any grain filler. And maybe that was the problem. I'm going to do some wet sanding on the pieces today, for experience as much as an attempt to decide what dye to use.
Last night I was delving again into Jewitt's Finishing book. He pointed out that alcohol-based dyes create greater contrast than water-based dyes and showed a picture, which showed a substantial difference. I've only used water when mixing dyes. I'm going to sample the dyes I like the most with alcohol and see how they turn out. He also mentioned water-based fillers are a good choice if using alcohol-based dyes.
When I was spraying WB finish on the kitchen cabinets, I laid down several coats before the first sanding. I plan to do the same with the guitar body. With all those curves, I don't want to sand through. John, I planned on using your spraying schedule. It's easy to follow and if it works for you I'm sure it will work for me. But I'm still a bit on the fence about when to do the grain filling. I've seen it both ways in Jewitt's book - before and after the dye - but have no idea which way would work better here.
The video series I've been using for the project, from Fletcher Guitars, shows using Timbermate, watered down and mixed with black dye on an ash body. He brushed it on, let it dry, sanded it and came back for a second coat. I'm leaning towards a yellow dye so I was thinking maybe using Fletcher's method but with yellow dye instead of black and not using the mahogany filler at all. I tried the black dye method on a sample piece of this wood and it looked awful! That wood is just too dark. But maybe Timbermate with yellow dye mixed in will help pop the grain. Of course, that would take the alcohol-based dye out of the picture, or not?
Finishing also had a few pics of spraying a Strat body. :D In one section Jewitt covered spraying a sunburst pattern and was using a standard HVLP gun, like mine! :D:D So I'll be experimenting with that too. I suspect Leo Fender (or whoever) came up with the dark borders so they didn't have to deal with the dark end grain problem. Then they called it sunburst. I'm sure the sapele end grain will soak up the dyes like a sponge.
I'm getting anxious to put this thing together and play it. I really want to work on the neck. But since the body will be sitting for 3-5 weeks after the final lacquer coat, I need to get that done first. So I'll be good and stay in the finishing shop till the body is done. ;)
John and George certainly seem to have you covered on the finer details of the finish schedule and I definitely can't add anything useful to that part of it. However, I do have a practical question which is -- do you have the setup to be able to spray lacquer safely? Lacquer thinner is extremely flammable and carries all sorts of exposure risks. If you do - great - the results will be fantastic. If not, you might want to rethink it and go with maybe something water-based. Just my $0.02.
http://www.wsc.edu/facility_services...er_thinner.pdf
Sunburst was around for many,many years before Fender came along. People we're very conservative about what things looked like. Even when I was young,if you owned a red car,you would be ridiculed by others.
No, I do not have a proper, explosion proof spray booth. I know about the volatility and toxicity of lacquer and that's why I initially planned to go the waterborne route. But research into the experience of others in doing guitar finishes told me I'd be rolling the dice. While I have read many accounts of people who have been unhappy with the results of applying WB finishes to their guitar, I have yet to read a single account of that with lacquer. Maybe Mother Nature will accommodate me and give me a couple of warm winter days so I can spray outside.
Work in the finishing shop has been going slow. I've been trying out a number of methods to determine which one I'll use. I diluted some Timbermate and tinted it with yellow dye and laid that down. I had to completely sand it off to get the yellow streaks out. Then I laid on some yellow dye, then shellac, then lacquer.
I then took out the Behlen Mahogany Filler to give it a try.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps81be0d4d.jpg
Must be the new 21st century mahogany. :rolleyes:
The can had already been opened so I initially suspected someone had tinted it. But research proved otherwise. That's what you get from Behlen when you buy mahogany filler. I tried a little and sanded it down to smooth and got most of the salmon color out but you could still see it in the pores when you looked closely. Some have taken this back, some have used it and liked the results. I'm going to take it back and get their neutral filler and dye it. I liked the way it filled the pores better than diluted Timbermate. I just don't like the salmon color.
I do like the chatoyance from the piece I used filler on. It's a lot deeper. And it took less coats to level out.
Now I have to find out how to fan out the different tones to give the burst effect I have in my head. Right now I'm thinking I'll be tinting the lacquer to do the burst. I'll be shocked if I pull this off!
George, I think that you need to keep your finishing recommendations within the context of this thread. Julie is making a rock and roll guitar for her son, it is not a commisioned museum piece from the violin family. On top of this, literally, Julie is using a waterbased finish which will be many coats thick - this will contribute to a cold lifeless finish (if not compensated for with a shader/toner treatment etc.) long before one thin coat of any kind of sealer will. I would use a thin coat of vinyl sealer over the coloured instrument and then again over the pore filler, all told thin as a bees wing.
I certainly would not use modern finishes on instruments intended to be reproductions of early stringed instruments. I agree with you 100% in this regard.
As far as sanding between coats goes any advcie needs to be based on the quality and thickness of coats that are being laid down. I like to spray carefully and sand as little as possible but still build ASAP. Using NC I would think that 9 to 12 of my wet coats would do the trick. I spray three coats a day, alternating 90 degrees on the spray axis, sand the next day and once I have my final coat on I wait until I can't smell solvent (thumb nail test on a tester board as well I should add) - 1 to 2 weeks hanging and then sand/buff/polish by hand. Machine buffing is too risky to my way of thinking. Lack of skill? Maybe.
I believe she's switched to a NC lacquer finish. Anyhow, the main problem with the vinyl sealer is delamination. Guys that use it successfully tend to hot coat at least one coat of lacquer within an hour of spraying the vinyl. That said, I know of quite a few delamination failures over vinyl. That just never happens over shellac or bare wood. I think the finish schedule she's settled on is pretty much straight from the book how most people do a basic guitar finish.
re: pink Behlens
I don't get that at all. I have a customer that used that on a guitar of his, and there was no magic trick involved...all of the pores turned pink, just as you'd expect. I'm not really sure what they're expecting you to do with that other than to dye it the proper color....but then why wouldn't you just by the natural color base? What a strange product.
Chris,I don't know what you are talking about,frankly. I am not recommending violin finishes to Julie. I have shown a few pictures of the richness and depth she should expect to get even with nitro cellulose. It is a beautiful finish if used with proper sealers. Gloss considerations aside,I could have made the same beautiful finish with NC lacquer on that Viola DaGamba with some tinting in the lacquer. I have used the methods I described on my modern guitars for many years. No "museum masterpiece" type stuff involved at all on my electric or acoustic guitars. Simple nitrocellulose lacquer,which is what Julie has purchased for her guitar.
I really don't need to learn guitar making again,but thanks anyway for your concern.
You need a real dark brown walnut filler. I just do not see how that filler is going to work. A lot of the mahoganies you can buy these days do look so light,I think that filler was made to match natural "Honduras mahogany",which is rather pinkish brown. That filler will darken a bit when it dries, to match the light mahoganies, but it is never going to match that dark wood you have.
Old timers actually used plaster of Paris,tinted with dry stain powders on mahogany finishes. I know one old English guy who still did in the 70's (Roy had his tool chest on his show). It worked then,and would still work now. I would recommend testing a small batch first,to make sure it still would dry with the stain powder in it. And, the stain powder needs to be water based,of course. My point here: Old timers knew how to get by with nearly nothing. In the Anthony Hay cabinet shop in Williamsburg,they STILL use ground up brick dust on their mahogany,which was also used in the 18th. C.. It gave a lively reddish color to the wood which was prized. Before mahogany,the English were largely confined to the more drab appearance of their oak and walnut furniture. They loved the new colors.
These are off hand tips to store in your memory. Just interesting information to know. I am not giving you this info as "museum masterpiece" info for you to follow. Best for you to get some properly colored water based filler like John recommended.
It had been a few days since I read this and I decided that Julie was using WB lacquer when infact she's using WB filler so it is no surprise that you don't know what I'm talking about George, neither do I.
Having built a few dozen guitars, solid body and acoustic, and lots of furniture using NC over vinyl sealer I can say that I have never had a delamination problem in over 20 years. I use Sherwin Williams for both products and my thinner and I do hit the vinyl over filler coat with NC lacquer on the same day. Old stock, spray temps and humidity, surface prep are all very important factors for a successful finish no doubt.
While waiting for the test pieces to do their thing, I cut slots in three different fretboard woods. I routed and sanded the radius on the maple and cocobolo but only did the slots on the ebony.The short piece of cocobolo has a thin coating of fretboard finishing oil on it. If you can't see it, there are streaks of yellow in the cocobolo. No doubt a guitar would have to be designed around this wood. Both the ebony and cocobolo are glass smooth. I can't get that on other woods, but maple does come closest. If one decides not to finish the fretboard (other than oil), so far I'd say these three woods are all good candidates.
I'm learning of all the processes one goes through making a guitar, the one that requires double and triple checking EVERYTHING before you begin cutting, shaping, gluing, etc is the fretboard. It HAS to be perfect! I have more screwed up fretboards than good fretboards
I'm finding it very difficult to choose between yellow dye and golden brown, both Trans Tint dye colors. They are so close in final color, once applied, but each lends different characteristics to the wood. When we were deciding on the right mix for the kitchen cabinets, it took us a month as we went through 20-30 samples. Eventually I realized most of them looked pretty much the same. I'm not going through that again. K.I.S.S. - keep it simple, stupid.
My SO ordered a cream pearloid pickguard and some gold hardware. It was the right thing to do. The new parts will be here long before I can install them anyway. I've already got plans for the red pickguard and chrome parts. :)
As to the finish, yes, I'm going the lacquer route. I liked the surface the Behlen filler left after sanding, but not the color. So I'll exchange the mahogany filler for neutral. The filled wood soaked up much less finish and left a smoother surface. This is my first foray into fillers.
The cherry necks are losing in the polls. Curly maple has passed them and is now in the lead. Oh, and one other thing, this guitar is MINE! :D My son has enough... although he doesn't think so. :rolleyes: