Gasoline prices being what they are, I'm driving less and am starting to think in terms of hybrid vehicles. Anyone have comments on these? Do they really deliver as claimed? Most importantly, is anyone making a hybrid truck that's worth considering?
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Gasoline prices being what they are, I'm driving less and am starting to think in terms of hybrid vehicles. Anyone have comments on these? Do they really deliver as claimed? Most importantly, is anyone making a hybrid truck that's worth considering?
Mark, Chevy makes a hybrid version of their Sierra pick up. However, the extra cost of the hybrid version of any vehicle taks a long time to recover. Especially in a truck, the extra mileage just doesn't allow a person to see a great difference in the short term.
Chevy's hybrid Sierra isn't really a "true" hybrid from what I read. Here is a blurb about it:
GM launched a hybrid version of the Silverado/Sierra in 2005. It is a mild hybrid design, with the electric motor serving only power accessories and the system also automatically shuts down when the truck brakes below 13 mph, and uses electric power to restart it. It uses three extra 14 V batteries mounted under the rear seats to store power. The truck uses an 5.3 L Vortec 5300 V8 for primary power.
The truck features four 120 volt 20 amp AC outlets mounted in the bed. These are particularly interesting to the building/construction contractor market, since they often require AC power when on the job. Additionally, the extra reserves of power for the accessories make this truck well-suited to that market, where trucks often sit at idle for hours at a time.
Availability was extremely limited at first, with commercial buyers getting the first allotment. Later in 2005, the truck was offered at retail in Alaska, California, Florida, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington. Finally, for 2006, the truck was generally available to retail buyers in all US states.
Here is another link:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...03/147374.html
The savings from a hybrid come from town-type/stop and go driving. The claim is a 10% increase in fuel mileage (we alll know that the claimed mileage only works at the factory with the wind blowing in the right direction :D ). Highway mileage in this truck won't really change because the engine never shuts down. Maintenance costs will be higher than a conventional engine as well.
I also read that Hummer has a hydrogen test vehicle out. Talk about taking along time to recover extra cost.:D
I know 4 people that have a hybrid of some kind. 3 don't like them because the fuel savings for them isn't enough to really offset the added expense of buying the hybrid and one person likes it...because he saw 35 MPG on a cross state trip via interstate.
I vote for horse and buddy. ;)
We have two hybrids...a 2002 Prius and a 2006 Highlander Hybrid Limited. Highly recommended. I'm getting about 26 mpg overall on the Highlander...and that's really nice for a mid-sized SUV. And--it has more horsepower than the "regular" one. We get between 45 and 50 mpg with the Prius and the current model gets more.
That said, what Dennis says is true, fuel payback is variable depending on the cost of fuel. However, the new IRS credit is helpful in that regard...buy soon as it's limited to the first 60K vehicles from any one manufacturer. I didn't buy the Highlander expecting to recover the extra cost...the day-to-day fuel savings is nice, but I also like the environmental aspects of it. We did more than recover the increased cost on the Prius...
If you have any specific questions about either of these two vehicles, feel free to ask. I'd buy another hybrid for the next vehicle, too...'just because.
And relative to the GM offerings that Mark mentions...they are a joke, IMHO. Only the current offerings from Toyota, Honda and Ford really exploit hybrid technology for significant fuel savings, and even they don't make the mark when it comes to balancing fuel cost vs increased vehicle cost. The industry critics agree with my opinion on this.
I am sure that I am missing something here but I get 40+ mpg out of my completely unaerodynamic slab of diesel van? I know that our gallons are a little bit bigger than yours but it still doesn't look like a great advantage to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Peacock
I've looked into it too, and have several customers driving them. Most are happy with it and seem to be looking at it more as "doing their duty for the earth" rather than cost savings. They are finding that with the added cost they may not get a payback until after the batteries are toast, and somewhat scared about what replacements might cost.
From what I understand, the benefits of the hybrids depend on the type of driving you commonly do. City type stop and go uses more of the electrical side while highway cruising uses mostly the gasoline/diesel side. But I believe the biggest advantage is in the emissions reduction.
Also, I listened to a radio program the other day about the use of ethanol fuels that GM is promoting. They said that it used more oil based energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it saves. But it could eventually reduce our dependency on foreign oil.
But it's good that there is finally getting to be some serious research work in replacing oil as the standard.
My son also has a Prius (I believe a 2004 model) and a new Highlander. He gets about 26mpg with the Highlander and claims over 60 with the Prius. I doubt he would ever admit getting less. ;) He also won't admit the Toyota hybrids have a cult following but he spends almost every waking hour on the Prius internet discussion forum. I'm sure though he would ditto everything you said. Well worth the investment. For me, though, where we live there is no Toyota dealer for almost three hours drive away. I am reluctant to get a vehicle that cannot be serviced locally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Becker
Hi Mark,
If you drive short distances at a slow to moderate speed a highbird might work out for you. If you live where you regularly drive on the highway go with a VW turbo diesel. I have a 2005 Jetta Wagon and average around 43 MPG. If it is all short trips 6 miles or less it may drop to 38 all highway I get 47. You can fit 3/4 X 12X 96 shelving in it. I regularly load it with my CMS mounted to the Ridgid MSUV, my Smart table and rails from Dino and assorted hand tools when I need to do work in Pittsburgh. The 3'X5' cement board is the biggest sheet goods you can fit in it. There will be a trailer hitch on mine soon. Lots of power and fun to drive!
On the green side VA is warm enough most of the year to run biodiesel up to B100 (straight bio, no modification needed) if you want or a straight vegie oil system (SVO requires modification).
The best site on the web for info on the TDI is Fred's TDI page http://www.tdiclub.com/
The people are friendly and knowledgeable like here. Also feel free to contact me with questions.
So using 28 MPG as a base & figuring top MPG an a small Hybrid of 50 MPG = 78% better MPG & the fuel has gone up here 51% since last August figure in the cost of the Hybrid in monthly payments & insurance etc. With the high cost of purchasing any new car today I wonder at 12000 miles a year how many years you'd have to drive the car to recover the cost. would the car last long enough to recover the cost.
I think I'll keep my little $1000 1994 S10 that I just bought. It seemed to get around 20 MPG on a short trip we just made. I'll know as soon as we make our next trip which will be 370 miles.
Frank,Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Fusco
I had to chuckle at this - I spend some time on the Prius forum myself, noticed the names, and wondered if there was any connection there. Small world, I guess!
Anyway, I bought a 2005 Prius back in October of last year. With winter driving conditions, my mileage dropped down to about 46-48 mpg. Now that the weather has warmed up, it's been up to around 52-53 mpg. My driving is a mix of city and highway driving, probably about 3/4 highway.
We just returned from our trip to La Crosse, which is about 110 miles from here. Before we left, I checked the tire pressure and inflated them to 40 front and 38 rear (had been at 32/30). I filled up the gas tank a little ways outside of La Crosse on the way back, and as we pulled into the driveway, I was at 59.7 mpg after 91 miles.
The terrain on this drive is mostly rolling hills, and there were several small towns along the way where I slowed down to 30 mph; otherwise my speed was between 55-60.
I don't want to make a Prius love fest out of this, but the Prius can get darn good gas mileage, depending on how it's driven. As far as the cost/benefit analysis, it's very, very difficult to determine, at least with the Prius, just what the "hybrid premium" cost is. There is no non-hybrid production vehicle that compares on an apples-to-apples basis with the Prius, and the stock Prius comes equipped with several options that are typically found on higher-end vehicles. If you were to compare the Prius with a similarly-equipped Camry, there is very little price difference.
I am really enjoying my Prius. It's not a lumber hauler, and it won't suit everyone's needs, but I think it's got a lot going for it. I haven't tried to fit a full sheet of plywood in the cargo area, but I hauled home my big green HF lathe in the back with room to spare.
One of my favorite things is that I never have to fumble with keys. I carry a little transponder in my purse, and as I approach the driver's side door, the car unlocks for me. I get in, push a button, and I'm ready to go!
Scott calls it my alien car. :D
Erin
"I vote for horse and buddy."
Sooo Dennis does your buddy ride the horse or does he get drug along behind it?:eek: :D
Thanks for bringing this up. The mileage does vary with the seasons/temps; partially due to the design of the pressurized fuel system and defroster/AC usage. (The pressurized system affects the electronic mileage number more than the "real" mileage number, BTW) Alison's 2002 Prius averages around 48 mpg during the warm months (not a lot of stop and go where the electric would have more advantage) but can drop as low as 36-38 during the winter when there is heavy defroster use. Nature of the beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin Raasch
My Highlander mileage is climbing, both due to the warmer weather and getting through the "break in" period...I'm just shy of 5K miles now. I don't expect it to get beyond about 27-28 mpg, as I also don't do a lot of stop and go...runs to the airport are at about 65-70 mph. But my local driving at about 45 mph definitely registers with better mileage performance! If this was the regular version of the vehicle, I would likely be getting about 18-19 mpg "for real"...(I do check it via math and not just depend upon the vehicle computer)
From what I can tell on the Ford/Mercury Hybrid, the real fuel savings would come from in town driving. Cooler climate would be a plus also. I don't think the people in Texas would appreciate pulling up to a long traffic light and it start blowing hot air! :eek: :eek: If you have the Ford/Mercury unit on Max A/C, then the engine is running, thus you lose the fuel savings. I'm guessing the others are the same. I had to certify on the F/M hybrid so that my dealership could certify and be able to sell them, as did the other advisor, shop foreman, manager, and 2 techs. (the really interesting thing from a dealer employee standpoint is the sheppard's hook to safely pull a tech that gets electrocuted to safety!!! [I KID YOU NOT] ) Our dealership hasn't even ordered one yet!! Jim.
"doing their duty for the earth" rather than cost savings.
I know these cars do not recharge from the grid but-
Not sure this is a good a deal as some think.
If every auto was suddenly made all electric:
1. Think about the chemical mess all the batteries would make. Like old tires the used batteries end up somewhere.
2. Charging batteries from the grid - Every time you make a converision there is loss and the power needs to be genereted somewhere. I wonder how many units of power need to be generated at the power utility level to equal 1 unit of power at the wheel? I bet it is a lot!
3.Battery power sure seems clean until you follow all the different requirments all the way back to their source. Looking at all the items this clean power uses might disappoint many in how dirty it really is.
We have had a 2003 Prius in our fleet bought new. We bought one because we wished to make a "statement" and a contribution to the hybrid effort.
Quite a number of different drivers, but very good maintenance. We get high 30's in winter and high 40's in summer. I am not aware of reports of milege in the 50's. For running around on flat ground and for city driving it is fine.....where a small car makes sense. For travel over mountain passes, etc. it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of performance...even compared to similar small vehicles.
But hey.....it's a start.....these vehicles will undoubtedly get better and better.
Just going a little bit off topic.... in early march I was at a computer conference down in San Diego. One of the events that they did for fun was bring in the California Fuel Cell Partnership people -- http://www.cafcp.org
They did a talk on their hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and then gave people rides or even drives in them all afternoon. I took a ride in a little Nissan number. Boy was it quiet, and it still had darn good pickup.
They are testing them in fleets right now, and their goal is to have something for the general public to buy around 2010-2012. This is something to keep an eye on in the future.
One of the guys I spoke with was with the Marines. Their test vehicle was a full size four door (Chev?) pickup. They make their hydrogen themselves by splitting water with electricity. He thought they were already doing a break-even cost in comparison to gasoline.
...art
ps: but I do know a few people who either have-and-love, or want, a Toyota Prius. Seems worth investigating. But I'm happy that I can just cycle to work. I think that is cheaper still. I like to tell people that I could buy a brand new bike EVERY year, and that would be cheaper than a parking pass ($50 a month where I work), let alone gas, depreciation, time to service, etc.
I find the current trends in energy technology quite fascinating. I think most hybrid owners would agree that it is not the ultimate solution, but that it is a step in the right direction. One of my reasons for buying a Prius - though not the most important by any means - is because it's an investment in the energy and transportation technology of the future.
Hybrids still use gasoline, so they are certainly not the answer to any potential shortages of oil. They are, however, a very clean vehicle, having achieved the PZEV (partial zero-emissions vehicle) designation. Even when the engine is running, they are discharging very little nasty stuff into the air.
I've also been following the development of fuel cell technology, and I think that there is great potential there as well. The current problem with both fuel cell and electric vehicle technology is that they are dependent on the electric grid. What makes them both promising technologies, however, is that the grid is slowly but surely becoming greener. Many countries, in Europe and elsewhere in the world, have already invested heavily in wind-generated power. Of all potential energy alternatives, this appears to be one with lots of upside and very little downside. In theory, we could satisfy all our country's needs for electricity and then some through the implementation of wind energy.
Our world is changing rapidly, and it's exciting to witness not only the changes in technology, but the shifts in how we think about the world that these changes are bringing about.
Much as I love my Prius, I'd be one of the first to say that we can't stop there. Even at 50 mpg or better, it's only a matter of time before the cost of gasoline becomes a burden that will be too great to bear. But until the transportation industry makes the next breakthrough, it's a darn good option for me and my driving style.
Erin
Some good points were made on energy production that is less dependent on oil. There has been great improvements made in the development of windmills. They only have a couple of drawbacks to them. 1. People may not like the looks of them, (they can be upwards of 300 feet tall or more). 2. Some people say they are noisy. The height of the windtower is directly proportional to the amount of wind in a given area. More wind turns the blades on the windmill faster which produces more electricity.
As to the noise level, most, if not all residential housing would be far enough away from the windmill that the noise level would not be of concern.
There is a lot of fuss over here about wind farms. Our simple problem is space. The places that have already been developed have people who have a NIMBY approach and the places that have not been developed tend to be consider "beautiful" or "special". Personally I think that modern wind powered generators are spectacularly beautiful. There is some noise and I wouldn't want to live directly under one but from a few hundred yards away they make less noise than the motorway that is within 2 miles of my house does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Weisner
I would suspect that in a nation with more space (like the US) they would represent a pretty good way of generating electricity. Whether the best way to make that energy available in a mobile fashion is batteries or hydrogen cells needs to be resolved but I'm sure that with any kind of will it can be.
Having crossed the Alps in a Fiat500 I can sympathise with the viewpoint but would have to say that I did it and so have thousands of others every day. If the price of continuing to be able to do something at all is to have to do it a bit less comfortably it seems like a fairly easy call to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Bell
Jim (and others),Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Becker
What do you think the cost will be when it is time to replace the batteries? I generally keep my cars a long time and that is something I think you need to fold into the equation. When I have asked at the dealerships they generally duck the question.
Thanks,
Warren
The hybrid battery will cost a little under $2500 to replace (from the PriusChat forum), but it is warranted for 100,000 miles. In CA the warranty is for 150,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren White
Another quote:
'when the U.S. Department of Energy investigated hybrid batteries, it stopped its tests “when the capacity remained almost like new — after 160,000 miles.” '
From the evidence that I've seen, it's not a big concern. Consider what you might need to replace on a conventional vehicle after 100,000 miles, and even in the unlikely event that you'd need a new hybrid battery, the repair/maintenance costs compare favorably to those associated with conventional vehicles.
Also consider that since the Prius uses regenerative braking most of the time, your brakes are likely to last the lifetime of the vehicle. :)
Erin
"Partial" zero? Isn't that kind of like "somewhat pregnant"? Either it's there or it ain't! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Erin Raasch
Actually, I understand the designation. I just think it's funny the words people come up with.
Does this mean that the battery is covered in full for the 100,000 or is there a cost scale depending on age/mileage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin Raasch
Also, what in the begeezes are "regenerative brakes?":confused:
You can see how little I know about this. I'm glad I brought this whole thing up. This has been helpful and enlightening!
I've had my Honda Civic Hybrid for 2 1/2 years and that's about what I get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin Raasch
I went 52,300 miles on the first 1000 gallons. At first I had problems getting the EPA rated 48 mpg around town. Now I get 54 - 55 mpg around town. The difference seems to be doing what folks have been advocating for years.
Slow down. My highway milage is as high as 65 mpg but at 55 mph.My milage is better at 40 than 45 mph.
Combine trips. My milage is lower when the engine is cold. Combining trips makes a big difference.
Tire pressure. I keep mine at 45 psi in the summer and can see the diffence in mpg.
Oil changes. When I forget to do it on time I can see the mpg decrease.
Cruise Control. On my car the cruise control has a lighter as pedal foot than I do!
Not only does my milage drop to 40-45 in the winter, I can even see a slight decrease when it's raining. I've never figured that out!
The Hybrid was a good choice for me at the time because I got rid of a Volvo wagon that got 22 mpg highway and I did 50,000 miles a year of highway driving at that time.
If you drive a normal amount I'm not sure a Hybrid is worth the extra money over a high mpg normal car. I too share the concern over where all these batteries are going to end up.
Even at $3.00 a gallon folks are blowing by me on the highway in their SUVs. I don't get it.
Don't know about the battery. In 2004 my honda dealer didn't know because no one had ever replaced one!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Pruitt
Regenerative braking is when you coast and the electric motor as a generator producing electricity for the batteries. This helps slow the car. I would equate it to a 1/2 gear down shift. Not as dramatic as going from 4th to 3rd but more like 3 1/2. I do find I need to tap the brakes occasionaly just to signal the car behind me that I am slowing down magically without brake lights!
Assuming that the technology is the same as in materials handling equipment - the vehicle is slowed down by using its momentum to run the motors as generators and the energy is fed back into the batteries. Effectively some of the energy used in acceleration is recovered in deceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Pruitt
8 years for the Toyota batteries, but I'm not worried about it since these vehicles generally have very low maintenance costs over time due to quality in my experience. I'm figuring on keeping the Highlander Hybrid Limited up to 7 years...which would be the LONGEST I've ever kept a vehicle in my life... I also hedged my maintenance costs for this vehicle. Normally, I would never consider any form of extended warranty, but opted for a 7-year/100K mile contract on this one (greatly discounted through negotiation and timing to about $17 a month equivalent if I divide the cost by the intended ownership lifespan) due to the large dependency on computer technology, both to run the car and for a lot of other systems. That means I pay for LOF and tires over the life of my intended ownership. Everything else non-cosmetic is covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Pruitt
On the Toyota hybrids, when you let off the gas or press on the brakes, the electric motors generate electricity and also aid in the stopping power...you actually can feel the extra "oomph" in the braking. The stopping power is amazing. On the other hand, so is the acceleration when you need it. When both electric motors kick in concurrent with the gas engine, the Highlander Hybrid really "hauls"...which is good, 'cause our driveway is just outside of a blind curve, at least until the new driveway gets put in. ;)Quote:
Also, what in the begeezes are "regenerative brakes?
I say let someone else "consumer test" the technology. This stuff is new and it is complex. Different motors driving the same wheels using computers to balance everything out. ARRRRGGGHGHHHH Sounds like a seriously expensive maintainance and repair headache sometime on down the road.
Unless you belong to that rare and uniquely eccrentic breed of people who are possessed of the driving passion to force this technology into reality by applying their own risk, money, and personal effort I submit that you "just say no" to new technology hybrid cars.
This is especially so if you haven't got a compelling reason to look to hybrids. As I see it you articulated a stropng reason to own a F-250-4WD with all the luxury options and park it right next to your Mercedes Benze SLK road hog. You don't drive much, or so you said.
ERGO you won't ever pay a lot for Gas over the course of any given year. So go in style and leave the finiking to the finikers.
Um...Toyota has been shipping hybrids since, oh...about 2001. They are on their second generation hybrid technology since 2004. Honda is not far behind and is also moving towards their second generation hybrids, moving to "electric favored", rather than the "gas favored" designs they have been using. When it comes to technology, five years is a LONG time!! ;) I don't consider it "new", at least for these industry leaders relative to hybrids...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Rohrabacher
Estimates on the Ford battery are also in the 2500.00 range. The warranty is divided between regular and "green" states. Warranty on the batteries are longer in the green states. I don't know how they determine that. Is it by what state the vehicle was originally purchased in? Or is it by what state the vehicle is brought in for repair that turns out to be a battery? If someone living in a green state purchases a vehicle in a regular state, what is the warranty? Would someone be able to take the car to a green state regardless of where they live and get the longer warranty? Hmmmm.......Questions with no answers. :rolleyes:
The oil change interval on the Ford Hybrid is 15k IIRC. Is it the same for the Toyota and Honda? I'm guessing it is. Jim.
Another concern with wind power believe it or not is Bird Kill!
It seems quite a few birds get hit by the blades. The is some bird loving group who has strong opposition to wind power.
I also heard something about Bats flying into the fan blades. :D :D
Jim, That Highlander is sounding interesting. Are you able to fold down the seats and use it to haul equipment/lumber/finished projects, etc?
Ian, How the heck do you get 40 mpg out of a van? and at what speed are we talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Barley
on edit.
I did the conversion -- 40 mpg with 4 liters to the metric gallon (I guess) = 33 mpg at 4 qt to imperial gallon. (40 mpg x 0.8327 quarts to the liter) Is that right? And I assume we are not talking about a 6500 lb chevy or ford van either.
Dennis - It's a Citroen Relay - pic below. I'm using 4.54 litres as a gallon. A UK gallon is approx 1.2 US gallons. (Apparently you guys made a mistake a while ago and think there is only 16oz in a pint? - when we all know it's really 20oz:) ) So in US gallons I get 33+ mp(US)g.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis McDonaugh
Weight of the van unladen is about 4300lb. I am not famed as a timid driver. Speeds up to about 70mph on motorway.
I suspect that the difference in the gallon causes quite a confusion. I only just realised myself that I never have factored it in when I read stuff about US motoring trends. I will in the future though. (Good - Now I don't have to learn anything else today)
PS - The pic is not my van - mine's silver and has a lot more dents in it!
Ah...I remember riding in that van!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ian Barley
Consider yourself lucky Jim - when Larry came over he had to slum it in my wifes VW. Air Con, comfort, cleanliness I tell you - you got the better deal!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Becker
I call that new technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Becker
I call that new technology also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Becker
Hells bells they haven't even got the computers naild down on conventional ausomobiles yet and the damn hybrids are still way expensive.
I'll take the SLK and the F250 any day over 80 MPG.
Ian, what size engine do you have in that? I get about 22 mpg empty on the highway with my Dodge p/u, but it weights 8300 lbs with the 6 liter Cummins diesel. I'd bet my p/u is way less aerodynamic than your van.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Barley
Cliff, there are a lot of happy hybrid owners out there, but it definitely is a niche vehicle. I think you have to do a lot of city driving to truly realize the gas savings and coincidently, this is where the gas vehicle does the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Rohrabacher