Kitchen Cabinets

I'm in the planning stages for a kitchen remodel and have a couple of questions about cabinets. I will be keeping the lowers I have in place and replacing the uppers. My existing cabinets are frameless and I will be replacing the doors and drawer fronts on the lowers. The doors I want to build are a simple shaker style with stiles, rails and a flat panel insert. I am not sure the best path to building the doors.


Should I use a stile and rail shaker router bit or just use my table saw for the kerfs and shoulders? What species would be best for painting? Poplar, etc?


Regarding the panel insert (all will be painted), should I use 1/4” plywood or perhaps mdf?


Should I glue the panel given that shrinkage will be minimal due to it being ply?


For painting, I plan on using an oil based satin as oils always seem to me to be the hardest. Would you spray? I have a traditional compressor based HVLP gun.


Thanks for your suggestions!

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Should I use a stile and rail shaker router bit or just use my table saw for the kerfs and shoulders? What species would be best for painting? Poplar, etc?

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That is a personal preference. I use a router table for all my cuts as it make the stopped cuts in the stiles easier to, uh, stop (depending upon your chosen joinery method). :) I join all my pieces with a Domino (loose tenon).

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Regarding the panel insert (all will be painted), should I use 1/4” plywood or perhaps mdf?

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I like to use a hardboard insert myself but find whatever is flat and be sure to paint it ahead of time...on all faces and edges. It will last better in a harsh environment like a kitchen. Use a good quality primer and paint. Spend some money there and it'll be worth it in the long run. Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore are some of the nicer (pricier) brands to look into.

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Should I glue the panel given that shrinkage will be minimal due to it being ply?

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I wouldn't do it. You'll want to use something like Space Balls or lay down lines of pure, cheap silicone on wax paper, cut 'em up, and use them to keep your panels from moving and centered. This will keep them more or less floating.

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For painting, I plan on using an oil based satin as oils always seem to me to be the hardest. Would you spray? I have a traditional compressor based HVLP gun.

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I spray just about everything but then again I have a nice (loud) 4-stage turbine HVLP (Apollo 1000, bought early 2000s). Practice with your chosen paint to set it up properly.

-Poplar would work, but you could probably upgrade to soft maple for the cost of a family dinner at a restaurant - personal preference.
-Shaker doors are easy to build on the tablesaw, but a good set of router bits could save you some hand sanding - personal preference.
-I prefer Ultralight MDF over plywood for the panels and glue them in if you want to, MDF is stable and does not expand and contract, plywood can be unpredictable. I built 36" tall uppers (9'ceiling) for our basement laundry room a few years ago using poplar and MDF for the 5 piece raised panel doors and glued the panels in then primed and painted. They are still flat and true as they were on the first day - again personal preference.
-I would definitely spray (if your gun can handle/atomize thick paint properly) it's much more even and so much faster. Start with a good primer, MDF can be a b.... if not sealed properly.
Edit: Sand lightly between coats.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll probably go with MDF. Any tips on ensuring that the doors are square. I've never made five piece doors before. Want to try to make sure that they are perfect.

Mike it's not that hard to do.Dont worry you'll figure out a system that's works for you.
And if you get in a jam well throw you a rope.
One of the best ways to take the power out if doing something is to talk about it.;)
So save your power.
You be fine.

Thanks Andrew!

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Thanks for the help guys. I'll probably go with MDF. Any tips on ensuring that the doors are square. I've never made five piece doors before. Want to try to make sure that they are perfect.

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Build a mock up using cheap pine or pallet wood before you start working on the real thing, make sure all your cuts are 90* horizontally and vertically. Before you apply any glue assemble everything dry, put your clamps on and measure both diagonals, you don't want any surprises once the glue is out of the bottle. Be careful with the amount of clamping pressure, to much and the stiles will bow upwards. If you have a pin nailer you can shoot a couple pins into the joints on the back side of the doors, this will let you free up the clamps for the next door and you still have a minute to double check the door for squareness and make sure everything is nice and flat. Don't be to generous with the glue in areas where it is difficult to clean up, especially on the inside corners. When you cut your panels, it would be a good idea to cut them about 3/16" smaller than than the distance between (inside the grooves) the top and bottom rails as well as the left and right stiles, this will make assembly much easier.
And as Andrew said, there is always someone here to assist you along the way.

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Any tips on ensuring that the doors are square.

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My thinking may be sort of whacked out, but, I like using a router instead of the table saw on the rails and stiles for this reason.
The router bits are a fixed distance from things & the doors just seem to go together square.
Also - it might be my imagination, but, using space balls also made things go together square for me.

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Regarding the panel insert (all will be painted), should I use 1/4” plywood or perhaps mdf?


Should I glue the panel given that shrinkage will be minimal due to it being ply?

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Another advantage the router has is that you can buy undersized bits that match the undersized plywood.
I glued my inserts, but, only a dab in each corner.


Flat doors are really super easy to make.
Once you make one you'll kick yourself for not jumping in sooner & you'll start looking for things you can make doors for.

If you have spray equipment look at General Finishes pigmented poly. It was designed to spray so it sprays much easier than a typical paint will and dries in a couple hours so you can do multiple coats in a day.

I sprayed my cabinets with it two years ago and have been very happy with the durability and cleanability.

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Thanks for the help guys. I'll probably go with MDF. Any tips on ensuring that the doors are square. I've never made five piece doors before. Want to try to make sure that they are perfect.

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When I make doors I cut the panel to the exact length I need then lightly clamp the rails to it then clamp the stiles. If your panel is square the door will be square. I make the stiles a little long and cut them after assembly. Having a sliding table saw makes this step simple.

Great tips all! Feeling more confident already!

Brad, as a pigmented poly, it finishes looking like paint?

My approach to my kitchen remod a few years ago was the same, new, taller uppers, but keep the carcase of the lowers, add new doors and end panels. I went with natural hickory, so I didn't paint them. I used raised panels, which are a bit trickier than shaker style. I did, however, make new top and bottom cabinet fronts for my son's kitchen probably 7 years ago. Soft maple with 3/4" MDF raised panels. Before painting I sealed the raw MDF edges with a watered down glue. I painted them using SW classic acrylic satin enamel, which is a water based self-leveling cabinet paint. They turned out really nice. I sprayed them using a rented airless sprayer. Spraying a heavier paint like that can be an issue with some HVLP sprayers. The advantage to a self leveling paint is if you need to paint anything in place because you can't spray and need to brush or roller, you can still get a sprayed on look. I have since bought a Graco X5 entry level airless sprayer and have painted probably 30 raised panel bifold and full size doors as well as a basement full of beadboard in a fraction of the time it would take with roller and brush, or even using my HVLP conversion gun.

Thanks Ole, would any others like to comment on using an airless sprayer for cabinets?

Another question - I know there are a myriad of ways to construct the carcasses. What type of joinery works best for y'all? Pocket holes, biscuits, rabbet, butt? Thanks again!

best way I have found to build square cases solo is with a domino - YMMV

Dado and rabbet joints are slower to make but exceptionally strong and accurate, use screws and glue where not visible or glue and clamps on the show side.
Pocket holes have their place but, at least for me, it is kind of hard to keep the parts from shifting when tightening the screws.
I own a biscuit joiner, you can have it. Dowels would be a better option if you have a good dowelling jig like the Jessem.
If you do want to spend the money get the Domino, but unless you run a production shop - I would say no.

Before you start your project make sure you have at least one square that is actually square - no joke.

Yeah, Domino is out for me. Have had the same issues with shifting with pocket holes. I have a biscuit joiner as well, but never have liked it.

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Yeah, Domino is out for me. Have had the same issues with shifting with pocket holes. I have a biscuit joiner as well, but never have liked it.

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Learn to use your biscuit joiner. It was designed for assembling plywood, etc. boxes. Lots of folks bad mouth them, but I've had one for over 25 years and it's my go to tool for building plywood boxes, including kitchen cabinet boxes. Biscuits, glue, and screws where they won't show works fine. Fast, accurate, and more than strong enough.

John

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Another question - I know there are a myriad of ways to construct the carcasses. What type of joinery works best for y'all? Pocket holes, biscuits, rabbet, butt? Thanks again!

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I used dowels, 4 in each 12" long upper cab joints between the tops, bottoms and sides, using 3/4" hickory faced ply. Dowel-Max jig. Backs were 1/2" pre-finished maple ply rabbited into the box. Euro style, no face frames.

I made an entire kitchen a few houses back using 3/4 oak plywood and solid oak raised panel doors. The frames for the door were all cut with cope and stick bits on my router table. Panels were finished before glueup. The box was assembles with shallow dados to locate the pieces and had through screws and glue to hold them together. Screws were plugged with plugs I cut out of scrap. We liked them.

Pocket screws hold very well, especially in 3/4. I would only use them if you can hide the holes, however. A track saw is a great way to cut up the plywood.

If you want the doors to be white or black, you can use tinted Resisthane. It sprays easily, dries fast, and is hard enough for kitchen cabinets. There is also a piece on the Highland hardware website talking about mixing Resisthane with latex paint but I've never tried it.

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Yeah, Domino is out for me. Have had the same issues with shifting with pocket holes. I have a biscuit joiner as well, but never have liked it.

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Couldn't you use the biscuit jointer to keep the pieces from shifting while using pocket screws? Two biscuits per joint would keep it aligned. Then all you have to do is keep them from sliding lengthwise. No glue necessary for the biscuits, just use them for alignment and make sure they're not in the way of the pocket screws.

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Brad, as a pigmented poly, it finishes looking like paint?

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Yep looks just like paint but sprays easier and is more durable than paint. They make a white and a black. My local store will tint it to match just about any Benjamin Moore color too.

Ok guys, I have a question, and I apologize to Mike if this takes his thread off topic.
I bought my Freud biscuit joiner many years ago when everybody had to have one, but I never managed to get the biscuits to fit tightly without slop unless I soaked them in hot water for a minute to let them swell or when I used glue on the biscuits I would get oval shaped dimpels on the wood surface once the glue had dried. Did I do something wrong or what am I missing. I never have any issues with dowels and with my Jessem jig the alignment is just perfect, you can not even feel the joint.

Get better biscuits! I use PC biscuits and before I use them, I always sort for: too thin, too thick, goldilocks (jeeeeeest right). But I can always find plenty of goldilocks biscuits so it's never been an issue.

As to the dimples, that will happen if you sand too soon after the glue up. You need to wait for the added moisture from the glue to full dissipate so that the raised dimples don't get sanded down and then turn into depressions once the moisture content has returned back to normal.

It could be the biscuits or it could be the slot is too wide. If you know somebody with one, you might get them to cut a slot for you with theirs and compare it to yours. I don't remember any reviews of the Freud. I like their saw blades but I am not familiar with their biscuit joiner. I have an old Skil that I wouldn't recommend (the fence is bad) but it cuts tight slots. Another way to check slot size would be to get a router bit that cuts biscuit slots (MLCS and others sell them) and compare it's slots to the Freud.

For this style, a simple groove with a dado or flat top rip blade will work well. I'll have to see what a shaker bit is. Techniques for tenons include dado or tenon jig.

I would reconsider MDF. IMO plywood is a better choice to me because I want the texture of wood grain.

Gluing the panel, although not necessary, will eliminate any rattle that may occur if that's an issue.

Once the doors and frames are done, I suggest you use Seam Fill on every seam, unless you want to see the seams and every joint, dimple etc. in the paint. Using a tinted lacquer works great, but it shows every imperfection. Filling and sanding every joint, crack, dimple or imperfection will help you get a great finish.

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Originally Posted by Mike McCloskey

Another question - I know there are a myriad of ways to construct the carcasses. What type of joinery works best for y'all? Pocket holes, biscuits, rabbet, butt? Thanks again!

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Used simple butt joints for the carcass construction - no glue, just screwed together and worked perfectly.

I am building my full kitchen cabinets and for the boxes I bought Sommerfelds Cabinet Making kit, it works great and everything lines up nice and square. Then you won't have to worry about the pocket screws. I have the same problems with pocket screws.

I also am doing Shaker Style doors and I bought the Sommerfeld Shaker bits and I have no complaints on it at all. (I have no affiliation with Sommerfeld, I just like the bits)

All the cabinets I have built are face frame ones but I have found pocket screws and butt joint to work great. Fast and easy. I built raised panel doors so I used a pair of router bits from Freud made for this purpose. I use the same bits though for other cabinets where I just use flat 1/4 panels. In those cases I used veneered mdf but like I said all my stuff is stained