Question on Double Square tool quality

Hi,

I was trying to purchase a descent Double square and I seem to be having some issues with tool quality. I have gotten 2 Lee Valley units and when I push adjustable square cleanly to either end and tighten knurled knob and then test the square against my other squares, they are not showing a clean 90 degrees. I returned the Lee Valley square and then purchased a Starrett 13A Double Square (which was about twice the price of the Lee Valley squares) and the same issue happened.

I compared the Double square against my Starrett combo square, a fixed engineering square and both of my Woodpecker fixed squares - and all are off by ~1/32nd of an inch. So I've returned the Starrett now.

When I compare my other squares against one another they are fine - no gaps.

Is not possible to get an accurate Double square? Perhaps I am not being realistic in my expectations. I've attached a few pictures of the comparisons.

thanks for your advice

'mark


Attachment 517219Attachment 517221Attachment 517220

unexceptable. I am surprised a Starret left the factory that far off. Mitutoyo. or old lufkin, brown and sharpe, Fowler, Scherr Tumico probably others i am forgetting.
BilL D

From the last 2 pictures it looks like the squares are adjustable, if so, why not adjust to square and if it holds keep the square? I agree, they should be square from the factory, but in the end if they can be adjusted to square and hold it, isn't that all that matters?

EDIT, my goof, I was looking at the screws on the Woodpecker square, forget my post.

Some of the Starrette small squares had a small screw to slightly move them out of “square” . They were mainly for patternmakers.
I suggest calling Starrette. The one I had or have….didn’t get much use, but I’m sure about the adjustment. Call Them .

You should not test a square with a square. Who knows which one is good. https://paulsellers.com/2011/12/chec...es-squareness/

To check a square that you suspect is out of square- put it up against say the edge of top table saw and draw a straight line. Then rotate the square 180* put it against line you just made. If it’s off the error will double which makes it easier to see. Wish I could explain better with illustration

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroll Courtney

To check a square that you suspect is out of square- put it up against say the edge of top table saw and draw a straight line. Then rotate the square 180* put it against line you just made. If it’s off the error will double which makes it easier to see. Wish I could explain better with illustration

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Do this. I buy cheapo squares, and they've all passed this test. They might be 1/1000th of an inch off, but within the thickness of the line of my marking gauge, and good enough for woodworking.

I've noticed that on adjustable squares, they have to extend to, or better yet past, the edge or they won't be square. But it looks like you're doing that. You might try pushing it past the edge just a hair and try again. I always leave a little lip sticking out the back. 1/64th should be fine. The corner could be rounded slightly and setting it off or something.

But if it fails that, I'd send it back again. No use spending that much money on something you can't trust. Especially when you can buy a cheapo that's reliable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Dufour

unexceptable. I am surprised a Starret left the factory that far off. Mitutoyo. or old lufkin, brown and sharpe, Fowler, Scherr Tumico probably others i am forgetting.
BilL D

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Was Brown and Sharpe a good mfger? I bought an old BS indicator off eBay it was NOT a well made indicator. Made me question my own thought that Brown and Sharpe was a good brand.

I've had good luck w/ PEC (and it's cheaper)

Starret has just been bought out. Hope they stay in Orange.

Mark, for all you know the Woodpecker may be faulty. The ONLY true way to check a square is the flip-and-mark method.

Having said this, the three Starretts I have are all square: 4", 6" and 12" ....

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https:...8-c4e75b2bf654
https://i.postimg.cc/tg4S8LdV/3.jpg

The absolutely BEST squares assured for accuracy are made by Chris Vesper. They are essentially machinist squares. I have a 4" and 7" ....

https://i.postimg.cc/nhkSRHmJ/4.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https:...5-8e7b18e5d855

Failing these, Chris Wong's Magic Square is the go ....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBG...nnel=ChrisWong

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yes, never compare a square against a square. Well, if you want accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derek Cohen

Mark, for all you know the Woodpecker may be faulty. The ONLY true way to check a square is the flip-and-mark method.

Having said this, the three Starretts I have are all square: 4", 6" and 12" ....

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https:...8-c4e75b2bf654
https://i.postimg.cc/tg4S8LdV/3.jpg

The absolutely BEST squares assured for accuracy are made by Chris Vesper. They are essentially machinist squares. I have a 4" and 7" ....

https://i.postimg.cc/nhkSRHmJ/4.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https:...5-8e7b18e5d855

Failing these, Chris Wong's Magic Square is the go ....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBG...nnel=ChrisWong

Regards from Perth

Derek

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Ok, I feel less than looking at how you store your squares. Nice. Brian

Oh come on, I'll bet you've done it plenty.

bought a mititoyu engineers square at the beginning was over 200.00 at the time. Its square and I check other squares against it. Id trust it before anything that moves. It had a certification originally, I dont remember what the tolerance was at the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mel Fulks

Some of the Starrette small squares had a small screw to slightly move them out of “square” . They were mainly for patternmakers.
I suggest calling Starrette. The one I had or have….didn’t get much use, but I’m sure about the adjustment. Call Them .

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thanks - I just returned via Amazon. This one (13A) was not adjustable, as far as I can tell.

'mark

Yes I thought about that, but then I compared the Starrett and the other 2 Lee Valley Double squares to 2 of the fixed Woodpeckers I own, and also to an no-name engineering square and and adjustable (combo) 6" Starrett square. The new Double squares were always off as shown in my pictures. So its a little bit unlikely that all 4 of my other squares are off (not impossible). So then I compared each of my existing squares to one another and they were all right on the money.

I will try to next Double square that I buy with the flip method - I'd see that before but just did not try it. Woodpecker makes a Double 4" square but having a hard time spending ~$170 for that one.

thanks

'mark

'mark

yeah agreed, was doing a quick and dirty test. When all of my existing squared lined up perfectly to one another and the new Double Starrett did not, then I got suspicious and just returned it. But agreed that your test would be much more accurrate

thanks

'mark

THanks Jimmy,

well the original Lee Valley Double square (~$51.00) was made in the USA. This square was off more when the sliding part was at one end of the rule than the other when comparing it to my other squares. A friend and I then measured the width of the slot in the rule and it was wider at one end of the 4" rule than the other (using digital caliper)

So that's when decided to return the LV ones and buy the Starrett for 2X the price (ouch!). When that was off (in the pictures I shared) I just returned that one back to Amazon.

thanks for your suggestions

'mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warren Lake

bought a mititoyu engineers square at the beginning was over 200.00 at the time. Its square and I check other squares against it. Id trust it before anything that moves. It had a certification originally, I dont remember what the tolerance was at the time.

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I love Mititoyo, they just feel right.

I sent them a photo of my caliper one day, maybe had 40 years on it and beaten to hell and still works perfect. They gave it to the Pres at the time as it really did show the level of quality. I have a panasonic camera same had over 10 years of being beaten up even forgotten in the rain. Finally died, tons of deep battle scars in it from being on my belt. Both of them spoke highly considering what they went through. Caliper is still perfect camera replaced. Easy for me to buy from both those companies.

Hey Derek

wondering how old your Starrett’s are? I heard from another ww that Starrett’s quality has really gone down. I have a Starrett 6” combo square from maybe 8 years ago and while it still shows pretty square (paper flip test method), the locking nut never works that well. It’s my fault, I should have returned it years ago, but thought it was perhaps just breaking in the threads. Still has the problem today.

What pains me is that all the Double squares I’ve just returned over the past few weeks were all made in the USA. Someone is sleeping at the wheel imho. Also i just tested the flip method on all my existing squares and they appear to be spot on. THanks

A

’mark

Mark, the 4" is fairly new, about 12 months. The only downside to is is that the blade is Imperial. I cannot find a Metric version. The 6" is Metric and about 5 or 6 years old. The 12" has a few blades, currently sporting a Metric, and about 20 years old (I have two of them).

Mine have always been accurate. Know that all combination and double square blades can be tuned for accuracy. There are tiny metal tabs inside the head which can be filed (very slightly, very carefully, one stroke at a time) to achieve the accuracy desired. Here is a video (first one I found, but decent) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D1K...b%27sWoodStuff

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek, that would be acceptable for a square that I've owned for sometime, but to me, its not acceptable that I'd have to "tune" a brand new unit.
Perhaps i should look for a used double square on ebay and adjust from there...

best

'mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Frederick

Starret has just been bought out. Hope they stay in Orange.

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I'm surprised anyone has heard of Orange. Starrett's is in Athol, adjacent to Orange. I live just south of both, in North Dana.

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Originally Posted by William Hodge

I'm surprised anyone has heard of Orange. Starrett's is in Athol, adjacent to Orange. I live just south of both, in North Dana.

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Ah, brings back memories of the old joke you would hear when I lived in Boston.

Four cities were named after Endicott Peabody (Former Governor of Mass): Endicott, Peabody, Marblehead, and Athol.

We need s a shop tour! Every time someone has a question, you seem to have an answer stored in some sort of beautiful storage! Impressive!

I recently bought the Lee valley 4 inch double square. The accuracy is OK, but the lock screw is very small, and you need to really turn it very hard to lock it which is a little bit annoying to use. I have a starrett 12 inch combination square, the lock screw has a larger diameter and it's very easy to turn and lock it.

Hi All,

I just got the PEC 4” double square tonite from Amazon. And this unit is the most accurate of the bunch. I do see a shimmer of light when comparing it to my other squares, but it does pass the line test where I drew the 90 degree line and flip the square 180 degrees and get a parallel line next to the original (Hooray!).

I’ve tested this new double square at both end of the ruler and get the same good results (unlike the Starrett and Lee Valley). It’s also square or good enough in the middle of the ruler as well.

The only thing I don’t care for but can live with is that one side of the ruler is in 1/100’s while the other is 32’nds and 64th’s. I just personally would not use 1/100th’s

otherwise its less expensive $65 keeper for now

thanks all

’mark

I just received my new Starrett 6" double square. Passes the flip test. Moves smoothly. Lovely tool.

I got mine from Iturra 904 642-2802. 80 bucks plus 9 bucks shipping. Pretty good deal. Lou has the 4" version for $70. And you get a really nice catalog if you ask. No relationship, just a happy customer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andrew whicker

Was Brown and Sharpe a good mfger? I bought an old BS indicator off eBay it was NOT a well made indicator. Made me question my own thought that Brown and Sharpe was a good brand.

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I can't speak to current quality but 30-40 years ago B&S was every bit as good as Starrett. I still have many of their tools in my machinist box.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by les winter

I just received my new Starrett 6" double square. Passes the flip test. Moves smoothly. Lovely tool.

I got mine from Iturra 904 642-2802. 80 bucks plus 9 bucks shipping. Pretty good deal. Lou has the 4" version for $60. And you get a really nice catalog if you ask. No relationship, just a happy customer.

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Lou is a treat to talk to - especially about delta-style C-frame bandsaws.

Those prices are eye-popping. $100+ and $120+ on websites. A few crates fall off a truck somewere?

I have never had a combination square that is an accurate as any of the Woodpecker's squares. I use a Woodpeckers MFT Square to square up the miter head on my Festool MFT table. It's perfect. I have other Woodpeckers squares. They also appear to be perfect 90's. I guess the problem with all squares is to find a standard to compare to. I have always found that the simple plastic triangles (30, 60, 90 and 45) that you buy in art or drawing stores to be very accurate. So that might be a good comparison. Or, maybe we're all just a little too concerned about "perfectly square". I do know, however, that Woodpeckers squares are CNC and laser cut and labeled and that, when using them, I never have anything out of square if it shows square on a Woodpeckers tool.

Regarding the comments that you should not check a square with a square and the only way to check for square is flip and mark.

I am not disputing that, but on the topic of Starrett, they make a 6 inch machinist square, now made in China, 3020-6, for a couple hundred dollars. However, for $481, they make a made in USA Master Precision 6 inch square.

https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-20-6.../dp/B0002FUMA6

https://www.starrett.com/details?cat-no=20-6%20W/SLC

I figured for someone who owned this square, it would be something where one could perhaps check square with a square.

I dont know the model of Mititoyu I have but it says DIN 875/0. I emailed them past on my caliper and how beaten it is after a lift time of us and it still works perfectly. Plan to go out and visit them sometime with this square. I need to clean it really well then like to have it checked after all the years on it.

I guess everyone knows new framing squares are much worse. Bought a framing square to use on first job . Tested it at home and saw
it was off. Told an older guy on job that the square was off ! He said “ they are all off ,you gotta file them, and flip over and file.
I never turn down an old ,cheap framing square, Some are crazy heavy!

Using a cylinder square on a surface plate to check squares is the ultimate way but a bit exxy so I would use a good quality 123 block instead on a good flat surface. The best bang for the buck is to use geometrical drawing squares which are super accurate instead of a combination square but the Starrett will do me.