If Santa brought you a 30,000 Shapton for Christmas, would you sharpen your tools that high regularly or at all. I have 16,000 and love it, I’m just curious if y’all would use it if it magically appeared in a stocking. Thanks for the input.
Todd
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If Santa brought you a 30,000 Shapton for Christmas, would you sharpen your tools that high regularly or at all. I have 16,000 and love it, I’m just curious if y’all would use it if it magically appeared in a stocking. Thanks for the input.
Todd
At times my sharpening has been an obsession. A 30.000 grit water stone would get used, but not likely every time.
It seems my water stones can get to a finer edge than my oilstones. Because of the ease and convenience most of my sharpening is now done on my oilstones. A few quick swipes on a strop and they are about equal to being sharpened on water stones.
Currently my finest water stone is a Norton 8000. Not even close to being in the same league as a 30,000. Norton 8000 is 3µ, Shapton 30,000 is 0.3µ.
This is according to > https://www.gritomatic.com/pages/grit-chart < This chart seems to move around the web as pages get updated. It might be a good idea to copy and put a date to the page.
jtk
The highest I ever go to is 16K and only for plane irons.
To each his own, I don't see much advantage in going to 30K. I know Cosman does it.
Why not?! What would it take, 5-6 strokes? 1 minute tops. Seems enjoyable to know you’ve gone that much farther than the rest of the crowd.
I was listening to a podcast recently and one of the most admired plane sharpeners talked about how hard he works to get the back of the iron/chisel as flat and polished as possible. I looked at my tools and said “I can get that better.” I have messed with two planes in the last two days and truly it is substantial. So, thinking 16k gets this, which is awesome - what does the intersection of 30k produce? I have messed with lapping film to .5 micron, but you can’t work the blade as extensively/efficiently as you can on a stone. I’m just going through the mental exercise before I spend money on it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I reckon it is one of my hobbies and I really enjoy it. Perhaps the OP does as well. The other night I spent several hours refurbishing a Japanese plane iron and loved every second of it. I work full time as a woodworker, which means using lots of dominos and lots of sand paper. So I guess traditional woodworking is a hobby, and I think part of that is getting as keen an edge as you can achieve.
To each his own my friend! Personally I think any extra sharpening is always worth the effort.
And it really is very little effort.
If you decide to ditch the 16k let me know :)
16k is my finest stone, but right there on the sharpening sink drainboard is a granite surface plate with .1, and .5 micron Diamond Lapping Film. What's an extra 10 seconds? If I had to drag stuff out every sharpening session, I'd minimize too, but when it's right there, the extra time is negligible. I'm not sure how fine the 30k stone is, but I doubt finer than what I finish on, so yeah, I'd use it.
Exactly! Which is why I mentioned why it matters less to me :)
I still use it on plane irons, as the durability it adds is a bonus. Chisels, etc, not so much since I'm touching them up often anyway (let's face it, it's easy to touch up a chisel).
edit: I think context is often missed in threads regarding methods of work, and I think that the context is ultimately more important than the how's anyway.
I have a 16K Shapton and love it. I don't know if I could rationalize the $300+ cost of the 30K considering I have some .3 micron 3M lapping film as well as a nice selection of strops. Following a few swipes on the 16K I usually strop both sides of whatever it is I'm sharpening and get excellent results.
Just dont breath on the blade or you'll knock it back down to 10k:). I stopped at 10k and stropping because of the law of diminishing returns. It would give you a sharper blade but not enough sharper to justify cost and time for me.
I have seen Cosman have the 30,000 stone but can’t recall when I saw him use it. I think I am going to go ahead and put it on the list to Santa and see if I have been a good boy this year. It could be fun to try.
Why not indeed! I'm interested to hear how it goes.
I'm partial to natural stones, one of the large 10x3x1 translucent or black Arkansas from Dan's would be in my list.
Save your money it’s nothing special. Stropping with get into same sharpness.
I bought mine from Hap when he was doing shows. The only time I think it’s benefited me was sharpening scissors expensive hair cutting scissors ones that cost over 250.00.
It will get a keen edge on o1 for A2 it’s nothing spectacular.
Good Luck
My understanding is that a 30,000 grit stone and green are about the same micron value. Depending on what you use for a substrate for the compound there could be some difference. For myself I use green or gold compound and leather. I keep the strop out and do a mindless strop when I stop to think. I’m interested to see how this goes. I also have some white compound for jewelry work that seems to work about like plain leather, not used much.
Jim
Dan's claims that their Black Arkansas produces a finer edge than their Translucent.... Most places claim that their translucent produces a finer edge (such as Best). I think that Preyda claims that their surgical black is finer than their translucent. Yeah, I spent a lot of time looking at claims from different companies. I am currently sharpening my chip carving knives on a Dans Black because I cannot find the stone I purchased specifically for the job :mad:
I own the 16K stone but have never tried to compare it to any of my Arkansas stones. I just use whatever whim takes me. I always just assumed that I got a finer edge off my 16K than my arks, but an Arkansas stone has a tendency to polish the edge as well.
If I had a 30K stone would I use it? Yes, I would use it. I have also been considering using a heavy concentration diamond spray on maple to see how that works. I expect that the 30K would do a better job (especially given the edge I get off my 16K), but it costs so much more. Oh, and it should be said that although I like the edges I get off my stones, I have never been overly happy with what I get from hand stropping. Maybe that is because the 16K does such a good job, I just do not know. I do not feel like I need to strop my chip carving knives off my Dan's black. I suspect that I am just bad at stropping. Someday I will work on that.
https://www.danswhetstone.com/inform...our-whetstone/
https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com...ng-stone-grits
Dan's has the better reputation for Arkansas stones but I have no particular complaints about any of my Arkansas stones, and that includes Dan's, Best, Preyda, Norton, and some I have no idea what they are.
And...Andrew has indeed seen how I sharpen my "Arsenal" ...and how I strop...
More than welcome to visit the shop....
Yeah he is scary, I hand him a blade I'm not done with and he just starts dropping it on whatever happens to have the next thing I know it's insanely sharp. I really should wander out and do that and then we could grab some Mexican food. Cuz I can't strop worth a darn.
Santa brought me the 30,000 Shapton Glass stone. Here is a report from doing my first chisel. I took a 1” LN chisel that I had already “flattened” in the past and went through the whole sequence again. I did this because as I observed the back, I recognized that I really didn’t work that hard on it the first time I did it. The chisel has been wonderful as is, but I thought it deserved some more TLC. I started with 320 self adhesive sandpaper on one of those ludicrously flat granite blocks - just because there was a small spot where I had not gotten all the way out to the tip, nor had I worked as far towards the handle as I wanted to.
Then I went through a Shapton Glass stones, which were 1000, 4000, 8000, 16000, then 30,000. I worked the back for about 1 minute, then would re-flatten the stone on a DMT Dia-flat stone. I would work through the grits and reflagged each stone approximately 4-5 times before moving on the next grit. Then I worked the bevel side, with the LN honing guide quickly (20ish strokes per grit) all the way up to 30,000 at 35 degrees.
Conclusion, I am one of those dummies that likes to see that a blade can shave hairs, but I have never been able to sharpen where the blade can pop hairs off that are suspending (not having to cut at the base towards the skin). That chisel could cut every hair, as I hovered through them. I haven’t said “Wow” in a long time. I have no clue if this will retain an edge longer or if it makes a hill of beans difference on performance, but it was really cool to see. The back is probably 10-15% more mirror-like than a 16,000. I have a cheap jewelers loop and looked at the scratch patter at the cutting edge and there is a pretty decent difference between 30,000 and 16,000.
Is it worth the money…eh? I have about 50 tools to work through and a lot of projects to hopefully make throughout my life so time will tell. But since I have it - I’m glad I do. I hope this helps.
Nothing like having the stone at hand to put all the comments and theories to rest.
Thanks for getting back on this.
jtk
If Santa brought me the 30k stone then it would see regular use. Strop will get replaced by the stone.
If stone was something like CAD 150 I would have probably bought it already. It is currently listed at CAD 499 on LV website. At this price, there is no way I will buy that stone.
In retrospect, if Santa brought it, I will sell it off or return it to the store. Much more useful tools can be bought with that money.
Lee Valley has the 30,000 Glass stone at $259 (so I would expect under $330 in Canada). The Shapton Pro 30,000x Purple Ha-No_Kuromaku Cermaic Stone is $369 (usd) so $470 in Canada.
I prefer the glass stones for wood working tools but I do own a few PRO stones (the 5K and the 8K). The PRO stones are harder and formulated for blends of stainless and carbon steel (the 30K was developed for suhi knivse and razors I think, the Yellow 12,000 / 15,000 was developed for wood working tools).
The Glass series is considered Softer and releases abrasive faster allowing them to cut faster. This is where the density difference comes in, the Glass stones are more dense than the pro stones making them seem harder yet still called "softer" because they wear quicker. The Glass stones don't have the same specific stone to steel formulation as the Pro's, they are simply made to be able to sharpen very hard and highly alloyed steels. These stones were originally made for the specific purpose of sharpening high end wood working chisels and that is why they are hard and promote flatness so much in the advertising.
My notes on the 30K PRO stone states:
My notes on the 30K glass stone list this as excellent for razors, not recommended for chisels (I assume specifically narrow chisels, not my 2" wide monster chisel), and good for pretty much everything else (scissors, knifes, planes, etc).Quote:
The Purple #30000 is a truly one of kind stone. Each stone is individually crafted, requiring more than 20 hours of processing. With a .48 micron particle size, the #30000 is the finest sharpening stone in the world. It is dense and hard, and takes sushi knives and razors to the ultimate level.
If you are good with a strop (like my friend Steve who posted previously in this post), the 30K stone is probably not of much use to you. I have been working hard on my stropping and some others helped me in the carving forum to get a handle on stropping for my chip carving knives; I think that my angle was too steep and I am not getting decent results while stropping my chip carving knives. Historically I have had better results from a 16K stone than a strop.
David Weaver used to post about different sharpening strategies on other forums. His take at times was in a different direction to using the highest grit or the most expensive stone, more of a goal oriented view as opposed to brand review. His web site currently has several articles on experiments he has conducted on different media, https://ofhandmaking.com/.
If you are interested in super fine honing, he's made some postings on using lapidary diamond powder. You can buy particles as small as 0.25 microns. If 30k has 0.48 micron particles, would this powder be like 60k grit? However, lapidary powder is only a few dollars instead of hundreds. https://www.ebay.com/itm/322345149590
My focus is on woodworking tools and my wife's kitchen knives when it comes to sharpening. If someone offered me a 30k stone, I'd say I'd rather get something else. If I wanted to experiment, I wouldn't mind buying some diamond powder and see what I get.
If you want to try Really fine sharpening media, this is the cheapest way. Only pull back with the edge though, because if you go forward, after a few strokes it becomes so sharp that it goes right down through the film. I keep this, and the next coarsest one on a small granite surface plate on the drainboard of my sharpening sink. It lasts almost forever because if you take an already sharp edge to it, only a couple of strokes are required.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...m?item=54K9601
I think we get too caught up in degree of sharpness, myself included.
You can take it to an ultimate edge, the first couple cuts in some oak sets you back to where? Maybe 8000 grit? 4000 grit?
I don't think it goes down that quick. I don't plane Oak a lot, but sometimes plane Cypress all day. I sharpen first thing in the morning, and when we come back from lunch. My starting grit is 6k those times. I like to start as sharp as I can, because the whole setup is right there, and going up only takes a few seconds each.
edited to add: I don't think any of my smoothing plane irons have touched anything coarser than 6k in years.
I decided to run some tests of my own and then throw them under a bit of magnification to see what things looked like. I also did a simply fast subjective test with news print.
My simple tests indicate that the 30K makes an easy to see difference for me.
My Lie Nielsen 40V Butt Mortise Plane had some serious chips in the blade. I purchased it used and have never bothered to do much with the blade other than to simply use the plane. I decided that it was time to sharpen a bunch of blades (13 or so).
Note that for these images, I would remove the burr then free hand the bevel. I did not try to chase he burr. Well, until the end.
Also note that the backs had been previously flattened, at least for the chisels.
With the plane blade, I started on a Washita stone, which very quickly raised a burr, but there was too much steel to remove to get past the chips, so I pulled out my Norton IM313, which has a Coarse Crystolon (120 grit), Medium Crstolon (180 grit), and a a Fine India stone (400 grit).
It is difficult to tell, but much of what you see off the coarse stone is a burr.
Attachment 472484
The medium crystolon leaves a huge burr
Attachment 472485
The Fine India left a pretty good cutting edge. This is the bevel on the A2 blade
Attachment 472486
And that brings us to the Norton Washita stone. Probably did not need to add this into the mix, but again, this felt sharp after this.
Attachment 472487
Next, There is the A2 plane blade as well as an old Stanley Sweet Heart Chisel off a Shapton 2000 glass stone.
Attachment 472488
The A2 plane blade off the Shapton 4000 glass stone
Attachment 472489
Shapton 8000 PRO stone. The rougher area is off the Tormek since this has a hollow grind. Seeing a slight mirror and you can still see the burr. The image says glass, but this was actually off the 8K PRO stone, not going to change the text on the image. The blades are pretty sharp at this point.
Attachment 472490
The Shapton 16000 Glass stone. This still leaves s small burr. I can chase it and I usually do. This will reduce it. Chased or not, this does a good job cutting news print, which is not what really matters for a chisel. This next image also shows the results on the chisel off the Shapton 30000 Glass stone.
Attachment 472491
I can clearly see that the burr is smaller.
I did tests against newsprint, and I could do a decent job off the 16K, but but off the 30K stone there was an easy to distinguish difference. It was not even close.
Now, do you really need this level of sharp? Well, if I am paring I want it. This level is almost always better to have. Can I get this off a strop? I have never had any luck with strops until recently so maybe you can. Those of you with decent stropping skills you probably can. If you want to know, just test your blade and/or take a few pictures with a scope. I took images at 40X, I did not even bother to take it to 100x to see differences.
[QUOTE=Andrew Pitonyak;3171755]Lee Valley has the 30,000 Glass stone at $259 (so I would expect under $330 in Canada). The Shapton Pro 30,000x Purple Ha-No_Kuromaku Cermaic Stone is $369 (usd) so $470 in Canada.
I prefer the glass stones for wood working tools but I do own a few PRO stones (the 5K and the 8K). The PRO stones are harder and formulated for blends of stainless and carbon steel (the 30K was developed for suhi knivse and razors I think, the Yellow 12,000 / 15,000 was developed for wood working tools).
/QUOTE]
LV has pro for CAD 499 and glass for 349. Both pretty costly compared to others. 12k pro is listed at 109. That's a pretty big jump in price.
When I was in US, I bought LV chisels from LV store while visiting Vancouver. Saved a bunch back then due to currency conversion. Basically, CAD listed prices when converted to USD, were lower.
I have 5k and 12k stones in pro. Don't remember if I bought them from Amazon or elsewhere but choice was dictated by price. These two have worked very nicely so far. And looks like they will last years.
Someday I do want to try diamond pastes. They sell them in 0.25 micron and lower sizes. Want to see what difference it makes. More of a curiosity than any practical need!
I think that the primary time that it matters is when paring.
I also think that if after the first few cuts we are back to the 8K or 4K edge, that would be testable to some extent by looking at the blade (or similar). I think that David Weaver has done this, or at least I think I read that he had. I should poke around to see if I can find that.
I think that the edge geometry plays a large role here, which is why we have different angles for different things. I am reminded of Buck knives. Buck looked at the edge geometry / profile and how this affected longevity. They posted their results with a title "EFFECTS ON EDGE SHARPNESS STEEL TYPES AND EDGE GEOMETRY". In the unlikely event you can find this post, it started as follows:
Note that the emphasis is mine, not theirs.Quote:
As with many complex issues, there are several different factors that can and do influence the sharpness of a knife blade, such as blade steel, heat treatment and edge geometry. Even the term “sharpness” itself refers to more than a single issue. There is the initial sharpness of the blade, “how well does it cut the first time it is used?”, and secondly “how long does the blade keep its usable edge?”
Another relevant quote that would agree with you Robert, but this is testing with knives on a CATRA machine.
I like that they include equations to estimate the cutting ability, but I am in to that sort of thing. :DQuote:
After the first half-dozen cut cycles, the knife is already dulled significantly as you can see from the graphs. At this point, it doesn't really matter how the edge was generated - on a stone or on a machine - edge geometry and blade hardness take over. We believe this is true in real life as well as in the lab.
Based on these studies, they completely changed the initial grind on their knives. The new grind has a shallower angle and they say that it maintains a usable edge for longer and is actually easier for the lay person to maintain. They call the new edge shape things such as "Edge2000" and E2K because they made this change in the early 2000's.
But I was not looking at edge geometry, I was looking at how fine should I sharpen. I won't be using my 30K stone on my mortise chisels. I guess that if you would bother to strop a blade then you could use this stone on the blade.
This is the teaser from David
Quote:
Unlike most claims of woo, I have the microscope pictures to prove it, and at one point in a group of tests planing tens and tens of thousands of feet of wood and taking edge pictures, I have the longevity data to settle the argument about whether or not some special transformation of edges happens under certain natural stones. Unfortunately, it doesn’t. Any burnishing or adhesion that’s done to an edge is something worn off quickly when planing wood.
I know how much one ten thousand feet of wood is, but I didn't plane it. We made Cypress shingles out of ten thousand lineal feet of Cypress 1x6's, and 1x8's. It took two trips with my gooseneck trailer, and one full load in the one ton pickup.
I was running a mortise for a clasp in leopard wood, a much harder than normal wood for me to use, so I used the 30K stone on my Lee Valley PMV11 bench chisels with very nice results. I was surprised at how well I was able to pare with that edge.