What three planes would you suggest to cover the most ground in a fully electrified shop? LV and/or LN is the price range.
My initial thoughts are a LA block, medium shoulder and a LA smoother or similar.
TIA
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What three planes would you suggest to cover the most ground in a fully electrified shop? LV and/or LN is the price range.
My initial thoughts are a LA block, medium shoulder and a LA smoother or similar.
TIA
my input is not worth much, but decide what you want to do with a plane and then decide what to get. I would recommend buying a book on planes (the Hack one is great, and I am sure that Chris S. book is great, too).
FYI - I really like my LV "apron plane" better than my "full sized" LA block plane. It easily fits in one hand.
I really like my LV medium shoulder plane. I also like my LV router plane for trimming.
I would strongly recommend a #3 or #4 plane jane smoothing plane. Learn to sharpen it. Use it for a final finish on a surface rather than sanding and you will never look back.
I think we should have macro button that automatically enters the text "it depends".
Guys around here love their bevel up jacks (I assume that's what you meant by low angle smoother?). I couldn't afford a "premium" smoother, I can't see that being a bad choice. Shoulder planes are nice. Mine is a woodie, better described as a rabbet plane, but it does the job...I'd like a 92 though. I don't know that all newer models convert into chisel planes, or if that's even a feature shoulder plane users even value. I'd be interested to know that myself.
That LN apron plane feels tiny. I felt like will smith in MIB when they gave him "the mighty cricket" gun. I held it between my thumb and forefinger like it was a dirty sock. People love them though. I'm just being silly, I'm sure it is awesome.
You're on the right track. Block, Smoother, Shoulder... pretty soon you'll be accelerating down the slippery slope... I'd suggest you just bite the bullet and go with premium planes. Costs more, but less hassle. YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Huskey
3 planes is limiting. With only 3, I'd ask what you want to do with hand planes? Do you want to do surface prep so that you won't be sanding? Or do you want to fit joinery?
In general, you use very different planes for those tasks.
So for the smoother what would be the most versatile? The Veritas LA jack or BU smoother?
Does everyone agree the med shoulder and LA block make the most sense for the other two?
I don't own any shoulder planes. I find it far easier to simply cut right to my line in the first place. Especially if you're mostly a power tool user, I don't really see how much use you'll get out of a shoulder plane as you should be able to make your cuts precisely.
I wish I knew what kind of work you did. I always thought the three most useful for power tool users were a block plane, a jack and a smoother. I happen to have a Veritas low angle block and BU smoother. I also have a LN No.6 (which is in Fore Plane territory but I use it as a jack). I like having something like that around because it lets me knock off the really bad spots when rough wood comes into my shop. That makes initial face jointing much simpler.
The Low Angle Smoother can be used on a shooting board. The Bevel Up smoother can't (it doesn't have flat sides). I use my #6 on the shooting board anyway so that doesn't bother me. The BU smoother is a tank. I really enjoy using it. If you were going to get the shoulder plane anyway, I would lean towards the LAS as it's a little more versatile.
Another plane I really LOVE is my LN Model Maker's place. I can trim a little here and there very precisely. I wouldn't give that one up for anything.
Here's my vote (although I agree, that three is limiting):
1. LN 5 1/2 jack plane, tuned as a cambered bevel smoother like David Charlesworth describes. I use this all the time for fine tuning wood pieces along their length before cutting the jointery. This is for really doing precision work.
2. LV Bevel Up Low angle jack plane, for use with a shooting board for fine tuning the ends of boards.
3. LN standard angle block plane - for chamfers and doing smaller work
A #4 smoother might be a good substitute for the LN 5 1/2 if you just need to swipe your boards to get rid of table saw/planer marks... but since hand cut boards tend to need more fiddling to get them dimensioned, I think the 5 1/2 gives more versitility... and leaves the boards smooth enough for most work.
I would recommend the LN 60 1/2 R N. Its a Rabbit Block Plane. You can cut shoulders with it like a shoulder plane because the iron extends to the edge of the sole, but it's set up like a block plane and tackles block plane tasks very well. I use this plane all the time (see avatar). I would also be lost without my smoother (4 1/2) and my jointer (8).
I second the Rabbet block (although I don't own one). But for someone who is cutting most joints with power tools, that would be very good for tuning joints (e.g. cheeks and shoulders) and for low angle block plane tasks.
For a second plane, get anything in the #4 - 6 range depending on what you want to do. If you want to clean up long edge joints go larger. Otherwise, I'm sure any premium smoother or jack would be good. A low angle jack (either LN or LV) would be the most versatile.
If you don't already have a sharpening method skip the 3rd plane and get yourself some stones and a honing guide if you need one.
If you're set up for sharpening, than your third plane could be a a number of things. Perhaps a dedicated shoulder plane, or an adjustable mouth block plane (the rabbet block mouth is not adjustable) or a router plane, which is very handy for any recess work (hinges, etc...)
If you have the budget for 3 LN/LV planes, I would suggest you leverage it a little differently.
You need a jack plane to initially prepare stock. Buy a Steve Knight razee jack. It will do the job brilliantly and save you bucks for other planes. Initial jack plane work is usually taking 4 ~ 6 thou shavings so the plane doing the work doesn't have to have a perfect sole etc. It works better with a extremely flat sole but it's not a requirement to do good work. The Knight jack has a ipe sole and will make the initial stock prep a lot more enjoyable than a heavier metal plane.
Next I'd buy a #7 or #8 LN. LV is also good but choice is either a #6 or a bevel up jointer. The LN #7 is $150 more than the LV bevel up jointer but IMO is a perfect jointer. Either will do the job, the LN #7 is best IMO.
I'd also recommend a LN 60 1/2 low angle block plane. This is a perfect plane for end grain, edge softening, and all kinds of stock adjustments that make it a handy item for sure.
Last I recommend either the LN 4 1/2, the LN Bronze #4, or the LV 4 1/2 smoother's. The LV is the cheapest of the three and does an excellent job with a lower center of gravity which is a very nice advantage in tougher hardwoods. Very good adjuster too. If you are feeling a bit adventuresome, a Japanese kanna in the $250 price range will give you excellent results and a superior blade IMO. Has a bit of a learning curve but really can handle any knarly wood you throw it on. The N T Gordon Ebony smoother is also a very good choice with a brass supported mouth and will take extremely fine shavings and about half the price of the LN choices. It's also can be quickly blade reversed for a fairly decent scraper setup.
Last I'd recommend some card scrapers. Invaluable in final surface prep and will cut your sandpaper expenses to almost zero.
Enjoy the shavings.
LN # 102 low angle or standard angle for fine work - end grain or just adjusting/refining a surface. Small plane that punches way above it's weight. My favourite plane.
LN # 4, York pitch frog - the surface smoother! You could go 4 1/2 as well, more money, more work to push.
The third plane is a tough one to recommend. A shoulder plane for joinery? The all 'round block rabbet which does may things well and could replace the 102 but just isn't as sweet to use? Even with machines the #7 is great to have to really get tight edge joints for glue ups and panel flattening.
The 4 can be used on a shooting board no problem. You'll appreciate what a shooting board can do for you.
Hmmm.
Why not just get the two planes I recommend and hold off on the third until you have some handplane experience and then make the right buy on the third. You will be spending money on sharpening remember!
A low-angle jack plane can give you a taste of the wide range of jobs a bench plane is good for. A couple of irons sharpened with different secondary bevels would give you a general purpose smoother and a high-angle smoother for use on highly figured woods. It'll shoot end grain. It'll clean up tear-out from your jointer and planer without introducing big hollows in the board. A toothing iron or cambered plain iron will let you roughly flatten a board face too wide for your jointer -- flat enough to take it to the planer without danger. The Lie-Nielsen is gorgeous, the Veritas is a bit more utilitarian in appearance. I prefer the adjustment mechanism on the Veritas, but that's largely a personal preference. The Veritas' tote is more upright -- designed to be used with a higher (power-tool oriented) workbench.
A good sharpening kit is absolutely essential. A couple of good waterstones (1000 grit and 8000 grit would be a good place to start) and a method to keep them flat (a DMT coarse/extra-coarse diamond plate works beautifully for me) will help make your first plane experience a good one. I'm using Naniwa "Superstones" with great results -- the big advantage is that they don't need to be soaked prior to use. Just a spritz of water and you're ready to hone. Shaptons are very well regarded, too. A sharpening jig makes the learning curve a bit less steep, especially for an occasional sharpener. Plus, if you're going the bevel-up route a jig makes keeping a consistent secondary bevel easy as can be. I like the Veritas MkII with the camber roller. The inexpensive Eclipse-style does a nice job, too.
I'd think about plane 2 and 3 after you've got this setup singing for you. You'll have a clearer idea of what's involved, and what you want your next planes to do for you. Once the hook is set, there are plenty of tool pushers around here to reel you in... :D
The trinity of bench planes was traditionally the long or try plane, jack or fore plane, and the smooth plane. That's where I would start as they afford you the greatest range of possibilities/opportunities. But these are surface planes. I think it's interesting that so many would suggest what I would call "fitting" planes (planes for joint making). I would think these planes produce joints that are fairly easily produce on machines.
So I think I change my answer. If you want to get involved with hand planed boards for the esthetics of it, I recommend the traditional planes I suggested above. And i woudln't recommend the low angle planes, despite the fact that people love them.
If you are looking for a few planes to tinker with, planes to assist your machines, look to a shoulder plane, a skew rabbet, and I think a #8 say. Some honking big jointer. Some guys clamp these in their bench vises and push small bits over them almost like a power jointer.
Adam
Myself I am not a big block plane fan and would put my money into a small bench plane or sharpening tools..
Getting into hand tools is a slippery slope as you need a whole array or sharpening tools to go alone with the bench tools
As noted, exactly what sort of work you're doing plays a big role in plane selection. That said, I think I should explain the thinking behind my suggestion of the shoulder plane.
Several responses have noted that if you just "cut to the line", you won't need a shoulder plane. This is true. So, how often do you manage to cut precisely to the line for all pieces? Just as importantly, how long does it take you to set up the cuts to that precision? (Remember, he's a power tool shop looking to add hand tools to his repetoire, he's not {currently} going Full Galoot.) One of the most illuminating articles I read once was an interview with a well regarded custom furniture maker. He had a fully equipped shop with large machines. His go to planes? Block, smoother, and shoulder. The block and smoother elicited no notice, being pretty much standard in that respect, but the interviewer asked him about the shoulder plane. His answer? It allowed him to save time. He didn't have to spend nearly as much time dialing in the precision on the machines for tenons. Cut, test, cut, test, etc. He simply set his machine up to make the tenon a bit oversized, and then a few swipes with the shoulder plane and the fit was perfect.
Consider the aggravation savings for the hobbyist. I'm pretty sure that the maker in my example could go through the cut/test routine a lot faster than I could, and he'd probably be a bit more sanguine about screwing up a piece by taking too much off, since he probably has both more stock, and quite possibly some additional blanks already milled. Me, I'd prefer to avoid the aggravation.
So, if you do a lot of mortise and tenon joinery, then the shoulder plane deserves serious consideration. If you don't, then it can be picked up further down the slope.
In truth, you could do 95% of your "bench plane" work with the aformentioned rabbet block plane. Yes, you can flatten a conference table top with it. It will simply take a LOT longer (and more skill) than doing so with a large jointer. Heck, you could do it with a 1/2" chisel. (Basically what a CNC router would do.) The jointer makes the job simpler and/or better and/or quicker. And that's all we're asking our tools to do for us. So what sort of work will you be doing? If you work a lot of large panels and the like, then look at a jointer (#6,7 or 8). If most of your work is small dovetailed jewelry boxes, then a LA block plane and a #3 or #4 smoother are the order of the day, along with a router plane for hinge mortises and such. If you use Dominos, pocket screws, dovetails, or dowels rather than traditional M&T joints, then skip the shoulder plane, but if you do a lot of M&T work, the shoulder plane could become your bestest plane buddy. If you work extensively with plywood, making lots of rabbets and dados and such, then maybe a block plane, rabbet plane and side rabbet or plow plane are your best options. If you get all your wood rough and gnarly, and you build large panels but only have a 6" jointer, then maybe a scrub plane is called for. Each plane has a set of tasks it makes simpler, better or quicker, and there's a lot of overlap between planes. What are the challenges that have arisen that you want to use handplanes to address? Dial in the answer to that question, and you'll dial in the answer to your question.
I was recently re-reading an issue of American Woodworker (a powertool biased magazine), and they covered precisely the question you've asked. Two planes, they suggested a block plane and jack plane. For three planes, they suggest block, smoother and jointer. FWW had an article on the "8 Must Have hand tools" (I think it was eight, coulda been more). Block, smoother, jointer, shoulder were the planes in the list.
Good luck, and don't forget to show pics of your new beasties when you get them.
Van,
After reading all of this my question was going to be about what power tools will you be complimenting, what types of stock you use and what do you plan to build.
It seems John and others have gotten to the same questions in different ways.
My opinion is that it is difficult to have many "wrong" planes. My shop is home to something like 60 and though there is some redundancy, in most cases, each one has its own best purpose.
Then there is also the matter of how each plane feels in your hands. For the "standard" smoother, the choice in most cases is between the #3, 4 & 4-1/2 size. They all do good work, but if one is doing a lot of different things, the #4 may be the safe choice. If one is mostly working large areas, the the #4-1/2 may be the best choice. If one's work is almost exclusively small jewelry boxes and such then the #3 may be better for the job.
This is a very common question that doesn't have a "one size fits all" answer.
One thing that does come to mind is the LA block plane. It seems a far stretch to suggest there is a wood shop on this planet that can not find a use for one of these. It then gets down to which one fits your hands or needs best. My shop has 5 in 2 sizes. They are mostly set to different cut depths. They get used for end grain shooting, edge breaking, edge shaping, small area touch up and many other uses. So many choices, so little wallet.
If you get an opportunity to feel these in your hand before buying, take it.
A shoulder plane is a good choice for cleaning up mortise and tenon work. They also come in handy with lap joints and rabbets. It is a specialty plane that may not get a lot of use if you are not doing a lot of joinery that can benefit from one.
Beyond commenting on the use and value of different planes, it is really next to impossible to make a good suggestion on what would be best for your needs without actually knowing what your needs might be. A little touch up after power tool work does not make a lot of sense to a guy like me since there isn't much power tool use in my shop. My band saw is a real wimp and doesn't really count for much.
jtk
Knowing how much bandsaw work you do, I think a good #4 smoother is in order. I like my bevel up Veritas smoother.
I also think a block plane is a great thing to have. You might consider the rabbet block plane from LN. It'll let you do most things a regular LA block and some things a shoulder plane will do. Two birds with one stone...
The third would depend on what you do. If you want to flatten stock, a #7 or even #5. If you want to clean up yr joinery, then perhaps a router plane.
If only three here's what I would buy:
LN 60 1/2 RN (block / shoulder)
LN 5 1/2 (large smoother / jack / shooter)
LN 8 (flattener / shooter)
Now if you are doing smaller work (boxes, etc.) drop the 8 and get a LN 4 (or 4 1/2).
Thanks for all the suggestions, clear as mud now. :)
As far as the power tools I am using it is a pretty complete hobby shop:
Table saw
3 band saws
12" jointer
15" planer
37" drum sander
OCS edge sander
OSS
Shaper
3 router tables
mortiser
RAS
etc
As for sharpening I have about 40 Sorby and Pfiel chisels so sharpening's importance is understood and covered.
Budget was not the limiting factor in choosing the number 3 nor actually limited to LN/LV money, if there are more expensive planes that are as user friendly and more of a Swiss army knife I am all ears. The number was based on seeing what I could get the most use out of, if the slop is slippery enough I can see myself going nuts like I have with chisels. Saws will come later, I only have 2...
I don't see me using a big jointer I have the capability to joint and plane boards SIGNIFICANTLY wider than I ever encounter, even slabs. So I will be using planes for final finish work, and cleaning up joinery and end grain. I do have and use a plethora of card scrapers and more than once considered a scraper plane.
Thanks for all the insight!
PS my work is general cabinet work from boxes to highboys in scale and a cross section of joinery from M&T to floating tenons, box joints to dove tails.
This helps a lot toward helping you. For end grain a low angle block is a good choice for simple jobs. For a lot of end grain work a low angle jack may be a much better choice. I love mine (LN #62) for trimming end grain and even long grain on a shooting board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Huskey
For tenon work a shoulder plane or other rabbet plane would be good.
For cleaning up joints along a glue line you may want to consider a small bench plane like a #3 unless you have real large hands, then a #4. The reason for my suggestion here is often a glue line has one side proud. A wider plane here may be a real hassle to get it to just take down a narrow area. A scraper may be the best tool to remove the glue and then a plane to bring the edge of the joint true.
Dry glue can be hard on a blade.
jtk
My 2 cents
Get a LA block, but if you do not mind tuning it up you can go cheap here. Also a shoulder plane is a good idea for adjusting fit and finish. For versatility I would grab a BU Jack plane. By buying a couple of extra blades you can effectively have on plane body that provides multi plane function. Last month FWW had an article to this effect I think. A #7 would be the next one on my list. It is my "most used" plane, but the other 3 listed I think are more needed. What I mean is that my #7 (which replaced my power jointer) is my goto plane for most flattening & straightening operations, but I could get by with the #5. The #7 is not a great smoother (but the #5 will work) and it cannot replace a block or shoulder plane. When I need the smaller planes, which is admittedly less often, nothing else will work
Low angle block, low angle jack, low angle smoother. I use them all, and would be kinda lost without any of them.
Apron plane is a good alternative to the LA block.
Get 2 for now:
a block and a smoother. Then go from there.