Festool square cuts; I love my Festool MFT table…BUT…

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Originally Posted by Paul Johnstone

Daniel,

If you are a pretty serious hobbyist and have the room, I'd highly recommend getting a table saw. I'm sure there's a way to make the circular saw and guide work. But for repeatable cuts, I don't see how it's going to any easier or more accurate.

Plus, a table saw is useful for so much more.

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The EZ Smart Repeaters make repeatable cuts as easy as using a tablesaw and fence. I should know since I have both. And the EZ tools, (When combined with the proper circular saw and router) allow for practically everything the TS will do and some things the TS won't do, including turning a router in to what essentially amounts to a manual CNC machine.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Wade Lippman

It is a PITA to get square, but once I have it set, all my cuts are perfect.
Frankly, I don't see why they wouldn't be. Nothing is going to move.

I wonder if your sides aren't parallel. I once couldn't get it cut square, and surprise surprise.

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By "sides", do you mean the frame of the table, i.e., the extruded aluminum frame in which the MDF table top is mounted into?

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Originally Posted by John Stevens

Hi, Daniel. Over on the Festool Owners' Group forum someone posted a great method for squaring the MFT fence to the blade. The rows & columns of holes are CNC drilled at precisely 90 degrees. Simply align your guide rail with a column, then use an auxiliary fence aligned to a row.

If your guide rail doesn't stay in the same line when it's repositioned to different heights, check the owner's manual, because it gives a method for adjusting the MFT hardware to ensure it does this.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

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Thanks much John I'll check it out...looking now. I am assuming that you mean above to align the adhesive strip on the saw guide rail to a row of holes, and then align the fence to row perpendicular to the guide row...is this correct?

I think I tried that once long ago, I'll try it again.

BTW, do you have a link to the above described method in the Festool owners group?

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Originally Posted by Dave Falkenstein

This might seem way too obvious, but... I have a MFT1080. When using the guide rail on the MFT, are you setting the guide rail firmly into the positioning "pin" on the front rail attachment? I set the rear rail height first, according the the thickness of the material I am working on. Then I loosen the vertical adjustment on the front attachment and raise the front of the rail with the positioning pin into the rail slot and above the work surface. Then keeping pressure on the rail and attachment, lower the rail to the work surface. If you don't do something like I described, the rail can move horizontally a little bit, throwing off your square cuts. I almost never move the rail from the square position, and I set it square using a large, thick, accurate square, and it stays that way. I'm satisfied that my square cuts are accurate and repeatable. There are several discussions at the Festool Owners Group forum on this same subject.

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Dave, when you say "large, thick, accurate square", what brand/manufacturer do you have? I was looking to purchase a large and thick square last year, and I could not find one. I purchased a set of Pinnacle triangles a while ago from Woodcraft, they are fine quality but not thick enough when I check for squareness of the rail against the fence, not thick enough to account for the height of the rail over the fence. They butt up against the fence but only barely make it up to the height of the rail, not high enough for an accurate check. The plastic or aluminum triangles you buy at Home Depot don’t go up that high either.

Sometimes I like to set the height of the guide rail for the thickness of the material, then before I cut, I would like to check the squareness of the rail against the fence, and if the rail is up high, it’s impossible to check the rail against the fence due to the rail height. So thus far, I have only been able to check and set squareness of the rail when in the lowest position using the pinnacles which barely make it up to the rail and sometimes they don't, and then when I increase height I have to have faith that raising the rail does not throw off the rail squareness.

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Originally Posted by Rob Blaustein

Daniel,


Don't despair--it is absolutely possible to repeatedly cut square pieces with your setup. As David mentioned, this is has been discussed a few times on the Festool Owner's Group site and I highly recommend searching around there as well as John Lucas's woodshopdemos.com site. I'll try to spell out how I do it, which is similar to the approach that others use. Although it is easy to have the expectation that this system should be easy and intuitive to use out of the box, I've found that there is a learning curve replete with tricks that are not spelled out in the manual (but can be learned from others). Aside from some techniques that I'll mention, there is one auxilliary item that makes this MUCH easier and David Falkenstein mentioned this too--a good sized piece of wood that you know to be perfectly rectangular. I use something like a 2' x 2.5 ' piece of 3/4" ply. Alternatives can be seen here; the link is to John Lucas's site which, as I mentioned, has lots of good tips on using Festool equipment. The nice thing about the 3/4" ply is that it is thick and can rest against the rail and fence easily as described below.

• Set up the two rail attachment pieces so that the rail, when lowered and resting in the 'locked' position, is fairly parallel to the side of the table. Use the holes in the table as a guide. It doesn't have to perfectly parallel since the key thing is that the rail and the fence be perpendicular.
• Set up the fence so that it is close to perpendicular to the rail. Place your rectangular piece of wood against the rail, then run it up against the fence. Change the angle of the fence a few degrees as needed so that both the fence and rail are each butting up against the two perpendiclar edges. At this point the rail and fence should be perpendicular. Now comes a crucial step--you must lock down the fence using that knob that simultaneously attaches to both the fence and the aluminum exgtrusion on the side of the table. Don't rely on the index pins on the fence, they have too much slop.
• You can now adust the height of the rails as needed. There is one important tip that David mentioned in his post and it has to do with making sure the slot in the rail 'snaps' into the tab on that piece (not sure what it's called) when you lower it. Here's a related tip, but it is a little hard to describe. It is useful if, after attaching the pieces that hold that rail to the table, you end up having to apply a little bit of lateral tension in order to have the rail fit into the tab. That tends to avoid the slop that David mentioned.

Hope this is clear and that it helps. As to getting a piece of wood that is rectangular--that's another topic. Google 5-cut method and you'll find discussions of this. I've also used a steel 'machinist' square by ENCO that is about 1/2" thick and 8" by 18" but when I go to the ENCO site I see it has been discontinued.

Good luck!

--Rob

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Thanks so much Rob for the info. A couple of concerns, in the above link you provided, I checked it out and on this page - http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sq-3.htm where he describes the easy method for making parallel cuts with the two steel rules and rafter stops, it looks good, but from the photos there I don’t see how she is making the two rules paralell to each other, in order to assure the saw guide rail is parallel to the other edge of material – how is that accomplished?

My other concern with using a perfectly square piece of plywood to square the rail to the fence, is the stability of the material. As it gets moist the squareness can go off a bit and affect squareness.

Also, you said above “Here's a related tip” – did you intend to post a link for the tip? I also read David’s tip about the pin, but it’s not exactly clear to me how to prevent the slop by applying some lateral tension in order to have the rail fit into the tab, can u or someone elaborate on that a bit more?

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Originally Posted by Daniel Hillmer

Dave, when you say "large, thick, accurate square", what brand/manufacturer do you have? I was looking to purchase a large and thick square last year, and I could not find one. I purchased a set of Pinnacle triangles a while ago from Woodcraft, they are fine quality but not thick enough when I check for squareness of the rail against the fence, not thick enough to account for the height of the rail over the fence. They butt up against the fence but only barely make it up to the height of the rail, not high enough for an accurate check. The plastic or aluminum triangles you buy at Home Depot don’t go up that high either.

Sometimes I like to set the height of the guide rail for the thickness of the material, then before I cut, I would like to check the squareness of the rail against the fence, and if the rail is up high, it’s impossible to check the rail against the fence due to the rail height. So thus far, I have only been able to check and set squareness of the rail when in the lowest position using the pinnacles which barely make it up to the rail and sometimes they don't, and then when I increase height I have to have faith that raising the rail does not throw off the rail squareness.

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Daniel - I use a square I bought from Enco (638-7628), but the Enco web site says that item has been discontinued.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3

You could call Enco and see if they have a new number for that type of square.

TS Aligner, Jr sells the same square that Enco used to sell, but for a much higher price tag. Look here and scroll down to the squares. The 8X18 square is $157.62 - Enco used to sell it for $53.78. I know it's the same manufacturer because I have a smaller square from TS Aligner and the big one fro Enco - identical.


You can make a large, thick, accurate square from a piece of MDF using the 3-4-5 method. You can make it as thick as needed, and it would be fine for shop use. Might be a bit awkward hauling it to a job site though.

Regarding the question you asked Rob about the pin - yes there is a slight amount of horizontal movement of the guide rail, even though the pin is bottomed out in the rail slot. I simply push the saw a bit to the right so the play of the rail on the pin is eliminated. Even forgetting to do that, my cuts are as square as I need them to be. Our medium here is wood, after all.

If you have not already done so, please read the related threads at the Festool Owners Group, where this topic has been discussed in great detail. (Links to other forums are not permitted here at SMC)

What are the main differences with the new MFT/3? Can one upgrade? I have the original 1080....

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Originally Posted by Bruce Benjamin

The EZ Smart Repeaters make repeatable cuts as easy as using a tablesaw and fence. I should know since I have both. And the EZ tools, (When combined with the proper circular saw and router) allow for practically everything the TS will do and some things the TS won't do, including turning a router in to what essentially amounts to a manual CNC machine.

Bruce

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When I think of a CNC machine, I think of a (minimum) two axis machine in which a cutting or milling operation occurs. In this case it would either be a saw or router moving freely on a two axis arrangement. This would imply that in the case of the router for example, you would attach it to two ball bearing perpendicular rails, and the router could be moved freely as you direct the router across the material.

How do you see the EZ system as a manual cnc machine, if it only rides on one axis during the time of the cut (or maybe I am missing something)?

Because if you are only talking about one direction at a time, it just becomes a one axis machine and to me it’s not a manual CNC (someone please explain if I am missing something).

In fact, here are some instructions on how you can build your own three axis automatic CNC machine using a router, and the entire cost is around 600 bucks – it would seem for a few extra hundred bucks the unit could be enlarged to cover 4 x 8 panels and a larger router with a straight bit, but I could not imaging it costing that much over a grand, with only a need for more material and the bigger router…

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-Cheaply-and-/

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Originally Posted by Dave Falkenstein

Daniel - I use a square I bought from Enco (638-7628), but the Enco web site says that item has been discontinued.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3

You could call Enco and see if they have a new number for that type of square.

TS Aligner, Jr sells the same square that Enco used to sell, but for a much higher price tag. Look here and scroll down to the squares. The 8X18 square is $157.62 - Enco used to sell it for $53.78. I know it's the same manufacturer because I have a smaller square from TS Aligner and the big one fro Enco - identical.


You can make a large, thick, accurate square from a piece of MDF using the 3-4-5 method. You can make it as thick as needed, and it would be fine for shop use. Might be a bit awkward hauling it to a job site though.

Regarding the question you asked Rob about the pin - yes there is a slight amount of horizontal movement of the guide rail, even though the pin is bottomed out in the rail slot. I simply push the saw a bit to the right so the play of the rail on the pin is eliminated. Even forgetting to do that, my cuts are as square as I need them to be. Our medium here is wood, after all.

If you have not already done so, please read the related threads at the Festool Owners Group, where this topic has been discussed in great detail. (Links to other forums are not permitted here at SMC)

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Thanks very much Dave.

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Originally Posted by Chris Padilla

What are the main differences with the new MFT/3? Can one upgrade? I have the original 1080....

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That’s FINALLY a question I can answer - I own the MFT 1080 table myself.

I wanted to upgrade, buy the new fence and rail system and install it into my MFT 1080 table – because I actually have two MFT’s put a lot of money into them.

I actually saw the new table at my local dealer, they made a few improvements, the whole setup looks much beefier. Maybe easier to square parts, although I nave never used it myself yet.

Anyway I called Festool USA HQ in Indiana a few months ago when the new table came out, and the tech support guy said there is no way to install the new fence and rail system on the previous 1080 table. The extrusions for the new table - the table frame itself, is completely different and the old festool guide rail brackets will not fit on the new table, and vice versa.

I am not a little miffed at Festool about this, because you are forced to purchase a whole new table for their new rail and fence setup and that just turns me off about them. It shows that they are not interested in supporting their previous customers who have spent thousands of dollars and with a new improvement like this I feel that they have thrown me overboard by not making the new fence and rail retro - fittable.. Because I have about three grand into their equipment right now, which is a reason why I am seriously considering buying a Grizzly table saw instead of a new festool table.

I even asked them if I could purchase the new extruded aluminum rails seperately - the table frames from Festool, and retro fit my old table parts to the new rails, so the new fence would fit, and they would not even do that. It's like they want to punish their loyal customers, and I don't like companies who hate their customers.

I did examine the new table frame closely and it is definitely an improvement, it appears to be a dovetail design which would imply that it holds the fence and rail more securely and is more self aligning which is great. It almost seems Festool lifted the idea from the EZ Smart Square, which also uses a self aligning dovetail design. Yet one would think that if the new rail and fence system can not fit into the old 1080 non dovetail extrusions, that the most logical, helpful, cheapest, sensible and customer appreciative and grateful thing the people at Festool could have done for their LOYAL, PAYING CUSTOMERS, would have been to design an adapter jig, so that one could adapt the new fence and rail system to the old table. Either that, or at least make their new extrusions available to mft 1080 customers so we can retro fit. Obviously their loyal customer base is not worth it to the CEO of Festool over in Germany, for him to order his engineering staff to do either, and instead chose to gouge his loyal customers for the price of a entire new table, while continuing to engage in price fixing in the US by not allowing their dealers to sell below list price, which is at the very least (I believe) unethical.

Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080. Even if I did not own the older table, I would be afraid to buy the new MFT table because what if they come out with a design improvement on their new table a year from now, and I really want it, and I can't retro fit it and have to buy a brand new entire table a year later to get a small improvement? I can either keep my old table and let it collect dust, or sell it on ebay (which cheapens the MFT product line to consumers and ultimately will harm festool reputation once they see dozens of MFT's on ebay). At least with a table saw, you can buy jigs and fixtures from either the TS maker or third parties, to improve performance and add various jobs you can do. But with an MFT, you are locked into and dependent on Festool for upgrades, and they seem to view their MFT line as a monopoly by not supporting their older MFT line by not making design improvements and parts interchangable or come up with interchangability solutions. It all seems extremely stingy when they come up with new ideas, you have to pay for the new idea plus several times over, to get the improvement, when it comes to the MFT tables.

They no doubt make fine power tools, and i'm thinking about buying their router, but I have definitely been turned off by the MFT line because of this. If I can find a router almost as good as the festool I will likely buy the cheaper one.

OK there, I got it off my chest I'll shut up now.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Hillmer

When I think of a CNC machine, I think of a (minimum) two axis machine in which a cutting or milling operation occurs. In this case it would either be a saw or router moving freely on a two axis arrangement. This would imply that in the case of the router for example, you would attach it to two ball bearing perpendicular rails, and the router could be moved freely as you direct the router across the material.

How do you see the EZ system as a manual cnc machine, if it only rides on one axis during the time of the cut (or maybe I am missing something)?

Because if you are only talking about one direction at a time, it just becomes a one axis machine and to me it’s not a manual CNC (someone please explain if I am missing something).

In fact, here are some instructions on how you can build your own three axis automatic CNC machine using a router, and the entire cost is around 600 bucks – it would seem for a few extra hundred bucks the unit could be enlarged to cover 4 x 8 panels and a larger router with a straight bit, but I could not imaging it costing that much over a grand, with only a need for more material and the bigger router…

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-Cheaply-and-/

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Daniel, it sounds like you've never seen the EZ Smart SRK, (Smart Router Kit) before. It does have a two axis arrangement. It rides on the rail for one direction, (X?) and it also can slide in and out from the rails for the Y axis. The Z axis comes from the plunge router mechanism. I don't think you can make controlled simultaneous X, and Y movements at the same time but considering how good Dino, (EZ owner/inventor) is at coming up with new applications and functions for his tools, it may be possible soon. I've had the SRK for quite a while now and I think it's brilliant. But inventing isn't my thing and I haven't figured out how to make it move in a controlled manner in more than one axis at a time. Dino?

Here are some links to some pics to show you a little of what it's capable of... http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/srs.html This is the sale page for the SRK. I think the latest version has changed a little since these pics were taken but the function is essentially the same.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mor...th-limit-stops
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-router-system
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Greek-key
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/system-of-capabilities
http://www.eurekazone.com/instructio...structions.pdf These are the instructions...

So there ya go, X, Y, and Z axis movement in a very controlled manner. Easy to set up and easy to use. I'm not suggesting that this will take the place of an expensive CNC router in a production environment but it will do most of the same tasks for far less money.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Daniel Hillmer

Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080.

OK there, I got it off my chest I'll shut up now.

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That is quite dissapointing to hear, Daniel and frankly I am quite surprised. What have folks at the FOG been saying about this? Do you visit there? I don't since I hate Yahoo! formats. I figured even it was upgradeable, it would be nearly cost-prohibitive like most of Festool's stuff but I would probably have done it anyway. I guess I'll just keep puttering along with my "vintage" 1080 MFT! :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel Hillmer

I even asked them if I could purchase the extruded aluminum rails seperately - the table frames from Festool, and retro fit my old table parts to the new rails, so the new fence would fit, and they would not even do that. It's like they want to punish their loyal customers, and I don't like companies who hate their customers or try to cheat them.


Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080.

OK there, I got it off my chest I'll shut up now.

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There is one company that offers complete compatibility between it's previous, current, and future tools/parts and they also offer free upgrades, (Or nearly free if there are significantly more parts involved). I don't want to be accused of being a salesman so I'll just give you the initials of the company...EZ ;):D

I'm not a festool owner but if what you say is true I'd be ticked off too. Before you give up on a guided saw/router system you should at least consider the festool competition. The even offer parts that work with the festool stuff. Many have gone this route. They even have a forum in the manufacturer's section here on SMC.

Bruce

By the way, I think there is more than one person using a Festool MFT with some EZ parts, so perhaps you could hybridize to get what you are looking for. It might be worth a look if you are mostly satisfied with your rail system, and just need a fix to an issue.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Benjamin

Daniel, it sounds like you've never seen the EZ Smart SRK, (Smart Router Kit) before. It does have a two axis arrangement. It rides on the rail for one direction, (X?) and it also can slide in and out from the rails for the Y axis. The Z axis comes from the plunge router mechanism. I don't think you can make controlled simultaneous X, and Y movements at the same time but considering how good Dino, (EZ owner/inventor) is at coming up with new applications and functions for his tools, it may be possible soon. I've had the SRK for quite a while now and I think it's brilliant. But inventing isn't my thing and I haven't figured out how to make it move in a controlled manner in more than one axis at a time. Dino?

Here are some links to some pics to show you a little of what it's capable of... http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/srs.html This is the sale page for the SRK. I think the latest version has changed a little since these pics were taken but the function is essentially the same.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mor...th-limit-stops
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-router-system
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Greek-key
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/system-of-capabilities
http://www.eurekazone.com/instructio...structions.pdf These are the instructions...

So there ya go, X, Y, and Z axis movement in a very controlled manner. Easy to set up and easy to use. I'm not suggesting that this will take the place of an expensive CNC router in a production environment but it will do most of the same tasks for far less money.

Bruce

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Thanks Bruce. Does anyone know if Dino @ EZ Smart have any dealers in Michigan, where I could actually go and see one in operation or try it out myself? It's hard to make a decision without seeing one up close.