Metal containers for dust collection separator

I have been reading posts here and elsewhere about Phil Thien's Cyclone Separator Lid and am interested in building one for my Delta 50-760.
As others have done I would like to mount the separator underneath the motor.

Does anyone have a good source for an appropriate container? I have found galvanized garbage cans online like the one shown on Thien's site but wonder if the corrugated sides of the can would decrease it's efficiency and if a smoother container would work better.
I would also like to find a container that would fit centered under the 50-760 without modifying the frame and that I would be able to drop straight down to empty rather than undoing the clamps at the top. I picture using something like steel rods with hooks on the end that hook over the lip on the bottom of the can so that I can loosen the rods at the top then drop the can out from under the cyclone lid leaving it attached to the DC. It would make emptying the containter much easier. Or perhaps I would use something underneath the can to support it upright that can be removed.

Any thoughts?
I know some folks with the 50-760 had to cut or modify a frame rail for their container to fit properly. I thought perhaps a straight sided container rather than a tapered one would fit better and not cause as much disruption to the air movement.
I would gladly sacrifice a little volume for ease of changing it out.

Has anyone used plastic rather than metal? Do you have any significant problems with static or a decrease in performance due to the static?

I want to give a big thanks to Phil for sharing his design with us. A lot of people are raving about how well it works and I hope to be one of them soon.
I just built a work bench for a friend of mine and and with all the jointing and planing I had to empty my DC 3 times and is still full waiting for a fourth empty. :)

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Originally Posted by Trent Shirley

Has anyone used plastic rather than metal?

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I've looked at a couple of installations that used a Rubbermaid Brute 28 gallon trash can. They're pretty stout and they're a little shorter than the metal cans. They also make a 20 gallon container, but I think that's a little on the small side.

I believe that someone triedd a regular plastic trash can and found that it collapsed due to the negative pressure.

I not sure exactly want you to do...seems you are mixing pre-separator and integrated bafffe ideas. Two ways to use the Thien...on is a pre-seperator that is inline in front of the DC. Collection goes through it first, takes out virtually all the heavy and most of the fines and sends the air onto your DC. The other is to send it all to the DC, and incorporate the baffle into the DC. I would suggest you make a pre-DC seperator and not incorporate the baffle into the Delta itself. Oddly, Amazon.com has a picture of this on their Delta 50-760 page. Seems their would be more than enough room to build the Thien on top of the can (rather than in the can) which would eliminate the issue of smooth walls, make it a whole lot easier to empty, and keep 100% of the capacity of the can. It also eliminates the big stuff from running thru the DC impeller. Attached is the amazon pic to show you the DC set up, and a picture of the Thien Separator as a lid. The how to build is found here http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.0

In the pic at right they are using a trashcan as a pre-seperator, which is built into the can and lid. The picture at right is the seperator acting as a lid on top of the can. Should be more than enough room to fit it in...and the "lid seperator if round and smooth walled and the bottom is the baffle....doesn't matter what shape is under the baffle. You will be emptying the can regularly, the DC bad very very infrequently as virual all the heavy duct is caught in the can. Make sense?

This is what I will be doing although a different DC and since I don't need mobility the can will sit outside the DC frame. I will use a 55 gallon steel drum that I can but locally for $15.

I do not own a 50-760, but I have seen plenty of these with the Thien separators under them. I believe the 30 gallon open head steel drums fit with no frame modifications to the DC itself. There is a post on Phil's forum titled "Delta 50-760 Dust Collector with side inlet Thien Seperator" that shows the can parked in the frame of the DC really nicely, almost like it was meant to be there by Delta...

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Originally Posted by David Hostetler

I do not own a 50-760, but I have seen plenty of these with the Thien separators under them. I believe the 30 gallon open head steel drums fit with no frame modifications to the DC itself. There is a post on Phil's forum titled "Delta 50-760 Dust Collector with side inlet Thien Seperator" that shows the can parked in the frame of the DC really nicely, almost like it was meant to be there by Delta...

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That's a nice design but harder to make unless you have the tools to cut into and fab up the inlet out of metal. The internal baffle also seems like it would be harder to remove when emptying.

I am in the process of making my Thein separator, but I found a place to purchase fiber drums.
Cheap too. I paid $7 for a 45gallon drum and lid, includes locking band for the top. They have various
sizes from 10gallons to 55gallons. I forget the company, but have it written down at work if you want it.

Depends on how close to Albany, NY you are I guess.

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Originally Posted by George Bregar

That's a nice design but harder to make unless you have the tools to cut into and fab up the inlet out of metal. The internal baffle also seems like it would be harder to remove when emptying.

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It sure is nice, the internal baffle is what makes a Thien separator, a Thien separator though. I guess you could do the top hat style like shown above, but that offers its own problems...

I made a side inlet without that support box, out of a plastic 55 gallon drum, yes the metal pipe was the hardest part to work, but it wasn't THAT hard to do... Just took some effort, some tin snips, and my Dremel...

I just finished testing my latest setup. With a small shop I needed to stuff it in a corner. It seems to be working great. I need to put some dampening rubber where it attaches to the joist - too loud through the floor. I have no filter on it right now and can see no visible dust while running the planer through 4" flex (for now). Only the stuff I don't want to breathe is getting through:eek:. However if I take a big handful of floor sweep, and stuff it in the pipe I do get a blast of fine dust. Is that normal?
It's true, the plastic trash cans will collapse, sucking in air which then pulls lots out of the can! I chose this setup so I could change the container if I didn't like the metal can either. We'll see how it goes.


Attachment 179887http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.pnghttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.png

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Originally Posted by David Hostetler

It sure is nice, the internal baffle is what makes a Thien separator, a Thien separator though. I guess you could do the top hat style like shown above, but that offers its own problems...

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I mean internal to the collection drum...operational there would be no difference between the "top hat" and an internal one...if anything the top hat would be better...no spacer rods to disrupt airflow, and no issues with leaks due to bad seal between the baffle and drum.

I just finished my separator today using a 40 gal can (because that's what I had) and it just barely fits vertically and fits the width almost exactly, no alterations to cart. Had to do an odd modification with the ports so I recommend a 30 gal can. You should also add a reinforcement ring to the can because, if you should inadvertantly get a suction block, it will crumple that trash can like an aluminum beer can. With a router just cut a ring of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood about 2" wide and sized to fit tight half way down in the can. This will prevent a total collapse if you unblock it fast enough. Otherwise you'll be buying a new can. If you never clean the floor with it and suck up the wrong things, this won't be a problem. Both my intake and exhaust ports are in the lid as my only intention is to deposit heavy objects in the can. Virtually no dust remains in this can, only chunks of wood and my car keys when I inadvertently suck them up while cleaning.

George, thanks for the link to that thread on the top hat separator. I think that should suit my purposes nicely. Heck of a well documented project as well.
I was not planning to use a baffle, just the separator at this time.
The top hat separator will allow me to use the metal can without worrying about the corrugated sides slowing the air movement and make it a lot easier to empty the can. Now if we can put in a window to see when the can is getting full it would be perfect eh? I just have to do some measuring to see how much clearance I would have for the can using this method. If need be I can just extend the frame height with some dowels as others have done.

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Originally Posted by james glenn

I am in the process of making my Thein separator, but I found a place to purchase fiber drums.
Cheap too. I paid $7 for a 45gallon drum and lid, includes locking band for the top. They have various
sizes from 10gallons to 55gallons. I forget the company, but have it written down at work if you want it.

Depends on how close to Albany, NY you are I guess.

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I was looking at fiber drums the other day but they were a bit pricey. Please post the company you bought from it may come in handy.
I am in Western MA so it is not too far from Albany but still a couple hours. We do head out that way from time to time for other purposes though.

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Originally Posted by Trent Shirley

George, thanks for the link to that thread on the top hat separator. I think that should suit my purposes nicely. Heck of a well documented project as well.
I was not planning to use a baffle, just the separator at this time.
The top hat separator will allow me to use the metal can without worrying about the corrugated sides slowing the air movement and make it a lot easier to empty the can. Now if we can put in a window to see when the can is getting full it would be perfect eh? I just have to do some measuring to see how much clearance I would have for the can using this method. If need be I can just extend the frame height with some dowels as others have done.

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Hey, great, glad I could help. The only chage from the "top hat" design I linked is that I'm thinking of using bendable ply rather than kerfing standard, or maybe hardboard if it can make that radius, and insetting it into a grove in the top and baffle rather than glueing it. Seems that would be much easier and would insure a perfect circle. It would also eliminate having to add laminate inside.

You'll have to excuse the rudimentary look of my setup, I can't find the willpower to make furniture quality shop fixtures. :) But the setup works great.

I screwed the baffle directly into the ring as many others have done, although this simple method shown here eliminates any support rods getting in the way of air flow
Attachment 180166

put a lid on the top of the ring, sat the blower on the lid, and exhausted the fine dust directly outside.
Attachment 180165


The setup sucks through a bag (rather than through a barrel) because I wanted to eliminate the "empty the barrel into a bag" step... I just pull the bag off and discard. So far it's been great. Great separation, easy to build, easy to empty, and 1/2 the footprint in my shop.
Attachment 180167

(note: to keep the bag from imploding, I have a cyclinder cage inside. I just shimmy the cage out when it's time to throw the bag away)

Attachment 180168


To make a version just like this that looks like high end furniture would be easy for the talented folks on this forum. But my version from scrap wood I had laying around took just a couple hours start to finish and works great.

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Originally Posted by George Bregar

Hey, great, glad I could help. The only chage from the "top hat" design I linked is that I'm thinking of using bendable ply rather than kerfing standard, or maybe hardboard if it can make that radius, and insetting it into a grove in the top and baffle rather than glueing it. Seems that would be much easier and would insure a perfect circle. It would also eliminate having to add laminate inside.

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Bendable ply will make the turn, but I really doubt that hardboard will. Unfortunately, bendy has a rough surface texture and I think you'd be better off laminating it after construction is complete.


The only thing I don't like about the top-hat design is that the air comes in, makes about 290 degrees of the circle, and then slams back in to the flat wall on the inbound air side. That has got to cause some turbulance. I guess it's no more than having the inbbound air pipe disrupting the air flow (the original design), but it 's still there. Unfortunately, I can't see a better way to do it.

Has anyone done a comparison between the original layout and the "new" top-hat designs?

dont over think it.

metal garbage cans work fine and are cheap

What about using a large sonitube section or creating a tube with two overlapping layers of laminate and route thin rings in the top and bottom panels for them to set into? You could then make the intake tube fairly flush to the inside of the tube and not have the flat area?
The assembly could then be strengthened on the outside of the tube with dowel or even 1x2 pieces connecting top and bottom. The grooves the tube sits in can be sealed with caulk or whatever and the whole assembly could still be taken apart if you had a need to.
I think it would be a lot easier to build but I do not know how it would affect the air flow.

My goal is to ultimately suspend the separator from the motor where it never has to move and the barrel underneath could be removed separately without need of tools.

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Originally Posted by Trent Shirley

I was looking at fiber drums the other day but they were a bit pricey. Please post the company you bought from it may come in handy.
I am in Western MA so it is not too far from Albany but still a couple hours. We do head out that way from time to time for other purposes though.

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The company is called:
Capitol Container Corporation
240 Church St # 2
Albany, NY 12202-1082
(518) 449-0797

They just have them stacked up in trailers. They are used, mine was used for tomatoe sauce, but they are clean and ready to use.
It just had a slight sauce smell when I opened the top. But like I said, $7 for a 45gal one. I plan on building the separator inside the drum,
so the size is just right. They are grey on the outside.

Go to nearest car wash, they usually have too many barrels from the soap and want to find someone to take them away. 30 to 55 gal

Here is a "top-hat" design that uses polycarbonate for the sides of the separator instead of hardboard or kerf bent plywood.
http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=431.0

I am also working on a separator modification.

I'm planning on making the separator itself from sheet steel and using a fiber barrel which was given to me by a local recycling place.

I also posted the below to Phil's forum.

Phil.... thanks for developing this product and especially for sharing it with others.

I am working on a HF 2hp conversion with a "tophat" separator, pleated filter, etc... as many others have done. I'm planning on using a fiber barrel, mounting it all on a rolling base and probably just moving it from machine to machine.

I do some work with a sheet metal shop that has laser cutters, so I'm planning on having the separator parts laser cut out of 14ga steel and welding them up.

A few questions:

Does the slot-to-inlet position in my illustrations look correct?

There doesn't seem to be a conventional direction of rotation in separators that I have seen. Does it not matter?

Should the 5" outlet tube on the top of the separator be flush or protrude into the separator? (again, no convention)

What is the ideal drop slot width? (more chips than dust - router, chop/tablesaw, planer/jointer - more solid wood than sheet stock)

Window? I suppose I could laser cut a window in and back it with PETG or Polycarbonate, but do I really need it?

I appreciate any comments/feedback, I'll try to update this thread as the project progresses.

Attachment 182725

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Attachment 182727


-kg

I'm also using a 40 gallon galvanized can with a very tight fit but I devised a sleeve that slides up and down over the intake from the DC and the Thien lid connector. Slide the sleeve down and the can slides off the cart sideways. With 4" pipe and elbows I thought the 30 gallon can too small as I needed 8" of space for the elbow in the Thien. Not a perfect solution as I have to slap a piece of duct tape on the sleeve keep vibration from causing it slide down.

Bob R-

Form follows function.

In other words ... yours looks great :)