Seeking Bob Flexner (or) When is a Wiping Varnish not a Wiping Varnish?

Just wondering if anyone knows how I can get in touch with Bob Flexner.

I am reading through his AMAZING book "Understanding Wood Finishing - How to Select and Apply the Right Finish," and suspect there may be an error on P. 85. In a group photo on this page entitled Wiping Varnishes, I see General Finishes' Oil/Urethane Topcoat pictured. Not only does the label on the can specifically say "Oil" on it (I know, that doesn't always mean much), but based on his technique for testing an Oil/Varnish versus a true wiping varnish, G&F's Oil/Varnish Topcoat does appear to in fact contain oil, so it should probably not be classified as a Wiping Varnish, as is implied in the photo.

Can anybody verify this, or know where I might be able to contact Mr. Flexner?

BTW, did I mention this book is AMAZING? I only wish I had read it before most of the other lame books and DVDs I bought on finishing, and all the wasted money and effort I've put into finishing that has been somewhat misguided all along due to lack of knowledge . . .

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way, shape or form affiliated with Bob Flexner or the publisher of the aformentioned publication, nor am I in any position to profit from the above endorsement of it - this is just my genuine opinionof the product.

I would try through his publisher; http://www.foxchapelpublishing.com/c...ur_authors.cfm

That really is a great book!

General Finishes Arm R Seal is an oil modified urethane. Oil modified urethane is just a fancy way of saying polyurethane varnish. Varnish is made by mixing a resin with a drying oil, heating them together until a new compound called varnish results. The resin in polyurethane is urethane and it is modified by heating it in linseed oil to produce a varnish.

If you look at their MSDS, you will see that other than the varnish, the only additives are the thinners needed to make it into a wiping varnish. There is no added oil as you would find in an oil/varnish mixture prodoct.

Thanks Glenn. I'll give that a try, if/when I find enough evidence to validate hitherto usupported premise. :D

<moments later>

Hmm, tried the page, but Flexner's not listed, and the domain listed on the back cover of his book is, well, somewhat not what you might expect. Maybe I'll contact Fox/Chapel at some point and request a forwarding service . . . then again, maybe Mr. Flexner is trying to maintain privacy or does not otherwise care to be disturbed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glenn bradley

I would try through his publisher; http://www.foxchapelpublishing.com/c...ur_authors.cfm

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Howie,

Thanks for the information. I guess despite Flexner's best efforts to warn us about trusting finish labels, I managed to convince myself that the big, bold "OIL/URETHANE" imprinted on the front of the can meant exactly that . . .

I'm a newbie to finishes/ing, but my nature is to be skeptical until I have an understanding based on facts (checking MSDS is a good start, I'll admit), but as I see it, all the facts aren't coincident at this point, at least not from my current palette of observations, so please bear with me while I second-guess your reply.

I still have some doubts about the implied claim in Flexner's book that GF's OIL/URETHANE Topcoat is a pure varnish based on the following:

Flexner's own test for identifying an Oil/Varnish blend vs. a true Varnish. His test, as illustrated in the book, involves allowing a small puddle of the target finish to cure on a piece of glass. With varnish, the puddle cures crystal clear, with Oil/Varnish (and in particular he states, any curing oils), the puddle cures with a distinct, unmistakable wrinkle as illustrated in the book by a photo. I didn't do the exact puddle test, but the leather-thick skin of GF OIL/URE Topcoat I left sitting for days in an open container after seems an analogous test which would indicate a non-hardening finish - soft and with the same distinct wrinkles as those of a cured oil. I found even a superthin (and without a doubt cured) part of this skin that formed part way up the sides of the container was not hard or brittle, but elastic, like dried yellow wood glue at the edges of a puddle, that is nearly transparent and is the consistency of saltwater taffy when it is peeled from a surface.

Additionally, Flexner says to check the rim of the finish can to see if the dried finish there is hard or soft. The residue at the rim of my GF OIL/URE Topcoat can is not what I would consider hard or brittle, but somewhat flexible and dentable. I would have to conclude that in this test, GF's Oil Urethane Topcoat finish fails the pure varnish test as well.

It is entirely possible that my conclusions are incorrect, and I am keeping an open mind about it. But if I am mistaken, I would really like to know why. The choices I make on the remaining finishing process on a current project would really benefit from some sound advice.

Thanks a'gin.

Doing the test in a "container" is not the same as doing it on a piece of glass. That's a completely different test environment. The flat glass is important.

As Jim has said, the "test" you performed will always leave a sort of flexible finish. That's because there is always off-gasing of the liquid underneath which will keep the "skin" from fully oxidizing and hardening. This is particularly true with a varnish that has been seriously thinned as a wiping varnish. Try it on the glass and see what you get.

BTW, another way you can tell a wiping varnish from an oil/varnish is that the former is applied and left to dry while the latter is applied, left to sit for a few minutes and then wiped dry.

Now, let me ask a question: Does it make a difference to you other than keeping Flexner honest? How are you going to use the finish?

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Originally Posted by Howard Acheson

Now, let me ask a question: Does it make a difference to you other than keeping Flexner honest? How are you going to use the finish?

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I'm not particularly interested in keeping Flexner honest - just wanted to clear up the confusion for myself and possibly for the benefit of others.

I have already applied a single coat (wipe-on/wipe-off) the finish to a side table I posted about in another thread, and I wanted to make sure that I have at least a somewhat durable finish when it's all said and done. Knowing what material I am working with would also help me understand how to proceed with it (building it up, rubbing it out, longevity, etc.) It's also part of my quest for understanding finishing. I'd like to know as much as possible, not only for completing a satisfactory finish, but also because I'd like to provide care instructions on my work should I end up selling a piece.

Thanks for your concern and replies. :)

>> I have already applied a single coat (wipe-on/wipe-off)

Please do me a favor. Check the instructions on the can. Does it say to apply and then wipe off? It's been years since I used the product but my recollection was that it was to be just wiped or brushed on and let dry.

I remember it as a very highly thinned product therefore it will have little in the way of solids. Wiping it while still wet will remove much of the finish after the first coat leaving little protection.

Is this Oil Urethane Topcoat yr talking about the same thing as GF's Arm-R-Seal? I'm pretty sure that's a varnish.

You're supposed to wipe it on and then let it be. Only a true oil finish gets wiped off. The reason is that oil is supposed to soak into the wood. You only let it sit on the surface so it can penetrate. Whatever doesn't penetrate gets gently wiped off to avoid gummy puddling.

I humbly suggest that you're misunderstanding the definition of 'oil'. Linseed, tung, mineral oil, mineral spirits, naphtha are ALL oils. Linseed/tung/mineral oils are all high molecular weight 'oils' that are intended to stay on the surface or impregnate the wood indefinitely. They don't evaporate. In the case of Linseed and tung, they even contain solids that'll eventually cure kinda hard.

Spirits and naphtha are technically oils, but are used as solvents or as delivery mechanisms for varnishes and other heavier oils. They help the product flow out, dissipate air, and impregnate. But they evaporate in minutes/hours (into the air and your lungs :)) and are not part of the final finish.

SO, I believe the 'oil' in your oil urethane topcoat refers to the fact that it's spirit-based (as opposed to water based) and refers to the solvent - not the 'protectant'. The protectant is in fact the urethane resin. The presence of the resin makes it a varnish.

You'll know you have a varnish if after 2-3 coats, you start getting a glassy build.

Shawn, water borne finishes are not "water based". They still use solvents with the acrylics they are made from and are then emulsified into the water which is the transport agent to the workpiece. Water is not a reducer in these products.
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Sal, here is the General Finishes oil based product page:

http://www.generalfinishes.com/finis...es/oilbase.htm

Please point out to us what finish product from their line you are speaking about so we can better understand the situation.

First, marketers seem to believe that DIY finishers believe that oil is a good thing, penetrating and so on. Tung oil in particular is bestowed mystical powers. But finishing products in which oil is one of the final components are either extremely weak finishes (as with pure linseed oil or pure tung oil) or moderately weak finishes as mixtures of oil and varnish.

Therefore marketers try to have the best of both worlds, they talk about oil when it is only a raw material used in the manufacture of varnish. So they speak of oil even when the product is varnish, and the final product has no oil at all--all the oil has been chemically reacted to become varnish. General Finishes seems to want you to think their wiping varnish--Arm R Seal also has properties of oil, so they tell us part of their raw material list oil and urethane resin on the front of the label--they conveniently omit the alkyd resin that almost certainly is a larger percentage of the raw materials than the polyurethane resin.

I've been confused reading this thread. Arm R Seal is pretty clearly a wiping varnish, just as Flexner shows. But no one has mentioned the Seal A Cell product, which as far as I know is actually an oil/varnish mixture, but is also listed as a wiping varnish in Flexner.

But it is really hard to tell much from the General Finishes web pages. They haven't given much attention to writing coherant technical data sheets, seeming combining information on stains and top coats on the same documents. Kind of like a summer intern wrote them, and the guy who should have seen whether they made sense scanned them in the last half hour before leaving on vacation. All that's why I can't answer very definatively which is which. I don't buy products from companies who give almost no information (Minwax) or who give confusing information (General Finishes) or who have a entire marketing scheme based around misleading information (Formby's Tung Oil Finish though to be fair the word varnish does appear in smaller print on the label.)

Howie,

I've attached a full PDF document from the Mfr.

I should have done this in the first place.

Seems I may just spray on my final coat, though it calls for a .051" (1.2954mm) needle . . . don't know where I'd find one of those. :D

Here is an excerpt straight from the website:

Product Description:
Arm-R-Seal is an extremely durable varnish suitable for
furniture, cabinets, millwork, and case goods. The unique
oil and urethane resins provides deep penetration into the
substrate and forms a hard, tough, beautiful finish resistant
to household chemicals, water, and mar. It is formulated
to be wiped on with a cloth or applied with a foam
brush, thus eliminating drips and sags. Arm-R-Seal provides
a warm look, sands well, and is easy to apply.
Application:
Apply via applicator, wiping cloth, brush or spray. Stir
well before application. Apply liberal amount of stain to
the surface and allow to penetrate several minutes before
wiping with a clean paper towel or cloth. A second coat
may be applied to darken the color. Compressed air: 0.40”
fluid tip / medium cap; HVLP: 0.051” fluid tip / medium
cap. Allow 6 –24 hours dry before topcoating.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Schoene

. . . combining information on stains and top coats on the same documents. Kind of like a summer intern wrote them, . . .

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I couldn't agree with you more, Steve. I did a double-take when I read that in the MSDS. It clearly says "stain" in the instructions.

Don't the Mfrs get it? Don't they realize that if they help the consumer be successful in using their products that they might have a customer for life? Don't they see how p*ssed off we get when we are ill-informed, under-informed or worse, have a deception perpetrated upon us?

I haven't been buying finishing products for very long, but I've already decided to practice buying using the rules you've adopted . . . any Mfr that provides less than full disclosure will NOT be getting my business in the future. I've wasted enough money, time and frustration as it stands.