Grinding Wheels

When I started turning I bought a cheap HF tool set. They served me well and I actually still have and use a couple of them. Ive been slowly replacing them over the years with Thompson tools. Over the weekend, I took a turning class and the instructor briefly touched on sharpening and since I had brought some Thompson tools to class, he wanted to talk specifically about sharpening "high end exotic" steel. Ive been using the original white wheels that came on my slow speed grinder. He told me those wheels don't actually cut the Thompson steel but rather break it off and that I should be using the blue Norton wheels. A little research on Doug Thompsons website and he says the same and specifically recommends the Norton 3X K Grade wheels. My issue with those wheels are that the finest grit they come in is 80. That seems pretty course to me especially when trying to clean up an edge for shear scraping, etc. Further research, I find people who say that Thompson steel shouldn't be sharpened with anything less than CBN wheels.

I guess I said all that to say, I need an education on grinding wheels. Specifically, grinding Thompson steel. I'm having a fairly difficult time thinking of having to spend upwards of $300 on a grinding wheel but if its what I need, Ill bite the bullet. Talk to me.

I have a 600 grit CBN wheel and it doesn't seem to get the Thompson gouge quite as sharp as HSS. Just a stray observation, and one that not everyone seems to agree with.

You can purchase CBN wheels for around $150. One of the best investments I've ever made. In my experience they take away less metal, leave a sharper edge which lasts longer.

I just bought two CBN wheels from Woodturners Wonders (220, 80) and could not be more pleased. The do a wonderful job of sharpening my Thompson tools and others. You can get two wheels for about $250. I regret putting off this purchase.

I use a 180 grit CBN wheel on one side of the grinder and a white 80 grit on the other side. The 180 CBN puts an edge on my tools (Thompson and other HSS) that results in an excellent finish cut. I use the 80 grit for my scrapers, or if I want to re-shape a tool. I labored over whether I should spend $125 on the CBN; it's proven to be one of the best tool investments I've made.

Haven't heard any of that yet. I've been using the OEM white wheels that came with my Rikon SS grinder. I'm sure there's a premium solution to your problem, but I'd make sure it is actually a problem that needs fixing first. If your wheels sharpen the tool as expected, what's there to fix?

That said, I am curious how the 3x wheels would perform, but my practical side always steps in and insists I wait until these are worn out. I have yet to win that battle. Or did I?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Dennis Collier

... I need an education on grinding wheels. Specifically, grinding Thompson steel. I'm having a fairly difficult time thinking of having to spend upwards of $300 on a grinding wheel but if its what I need, Ill bite the bullet. Talk to me.

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I like the blue Norton wheels far better than the cheap wheels. I used them for years with a Oneway balancing kit. However, I was still not happy with the fineness of the grind so I went to using a Tormek water wheel, especially for my spindle gouges. Very good edge on Thompson and other tools.

Then I abandoned all of those wheels and went to CBN, 80 to 600 grit. They cut very well with no balancing issues and no need to ever true a wheel. I have a 600 grit wheel on my Tormak. I got all of mine from Ken Rizza at Woodturner's Wonders.

However, even with the 600 grit CBN I still don't get the edge I got with the water wheel. I'm about to order either a 1000 grit or 1200 grit Tormek wheel to try.

JKJ

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Originally Posted by Wes Ramsey

Haven't heard any of that yet. I've been using the OEM white wheels that came with my Rikon SS grinder. I'm sure there's a premium solution to your problem, but I'd make sure it is actually a problem that needs fixing first. If your wheels sharpen the tool as expected, what's there to fix?

That said, I am curious how the 3x wheels would perform, but my practical side always steps in and insists I wait until these are worn out. I have yet to win that battle. Or did I?

:confused:

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Comparing my Thompson tools to my standard HSS tools, the HSS definitely gets sharper on the white wheels I currently have. They have a much finer edge where the Thompson gouges come off the grinder with a jagged toothy looking edge. If I were only sharpening HSS, this wouldn't be an issue.

Looks like the vote is going toward CBN. So, what brands? Grits? Radius edge vs. non?

Wood turning wonders. 180 (scrapers) & 350. (Gouges)

Woodturning wonders sells them for $125. I use one with a radius edge.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Collier

Looks like the vote is going toward CBN. So, what brands? Grits? Radius edge vs. non?

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A lot of people like the radiused wheels. They have grit on the top and around a 1/4" radius on both sides. These are used to sharpen hollowing bits fastened to long tools without have to swing the handle around in a big arc.

I don't like the radiused wheels for several reasons, one big: it subtracts 1/2" from the flat part of the wheel. Also, I don't often sharpen that type of tool that way. It's a great idea if you do. I bought one and then sold it.

All my CBN wheels, including the one on the Tormek, are straight across the full width AND with 1" of grit down the flat side. I like the sharp corner for sharpening various special scrapers and other tools. I like the flat on the side for certain things. I really like the full flat width. These wheels do cost a bit more but that's ok, I just bring my wife breakfast in bed and she's so happy she gives me her charge card.

Everyone has different needs, but this is what I ended up with after a few iterations: two 1/2 speed grinders, one with a polishing wheel for carving gouges and an 80 grit CBN wheel. The second with a 220 grit and a 600 grit. And the Tormek. I use the 80 grit rarely, but it is handy for initial shaping of big scrapers. The 220 grit is quite aggressive and is great for typical reshaping and sometimes for sharpening scrapers. I use the 600 grit for bowl gouges, skews, and small negative rake scrapers. I use the Tormek for spindle gouges which I also hone and polish with the leather wheel.

If I had just two wheels they would probably be the 220 and 600. If I had just one it might be the 350 grit.

HOWEVER..... Much depends on how you sharpen, what you like to turn, and what you want your edges to be like. A turner who mostly turns green bowls might want far different edges than I do. I like to turn smaller things out of sometimes very hard woods. A polished razor edge can leave a surface on a small turning that only needs touched with 600 or 800 grit paper. A big green bowl can but cut fine with a rougher edge, sawtoothed even under the microscope. Cuts fine and is a lot quicker to sharpen.

I'm sure you will get lots of advice from people who recommend what they bought.

JKJ

First, CBN, you pay more, but get far more. Which grits? If you get one, then 180 grit. I sharpen my scrapers on both 180 and 80, and there is almost no difference in the performance of the burrs, which are far better than what you get with standard grinding wheels. 2 wheels, then 180 for sure, then 350 or 400 or in that range, possibly, rather then 80. Mostly the 80 does not do a better job, other than for some shaping of tools, but if you need to do serious shaping, then a 40 grit belt... I have 600 and 1000 grit wheels. They produce a much finer edge for finish cuts in punky or stringy wood, but their edges don't hold up to heavy roughing. I never did care for the radius edged wheels. Main reason to have them would be for the hollowing tips as they do a better job on the sides of the hollowing bits than a straight wheel will, but you can 'relieve' the sides by hand if you need to. Get the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels. I have never run off the edge of one of the wide wheels. As for which brand, well, 2 as far as I am concerned, D Way, which are steel hubs, and Ken Rizza, which are aluminum hubs, and lighter if you have a underpowered grinder. Optigrind is another option, and Cindy Drozda carries them. I had one and it was high quality, but don't know what they are doing any more.

robo hippy

I have been using Thompson tools since Doug began making them and there was no info on CBN wheels then. I used the white wheels that came with the grinder and never had a problem sharpening with them. I never had a jagged edge off the stones and they were plenty sharp. Once I tried CBN though there was no going back as they take off so much less steel that the Thompson tools I own will take many years till they need replaced. I do like the 1 1/2" wide wheels better than the 1" ones and I do have one of the radius-ed ones but don't use it very often. Recently found http://buffalowoodturningproducts.com/ where you can get 1 1 1/2" wheel for $150 or 2 1 1/2" wheels for $250. I still have one grinder with stones to rough in shapes or if something needs grinding that isn't high speed steel.

If you are not sharpening the small 1/4" tools used for hollowing, I would advise staying away from the radiused edge wheels. A 1 1/2" wide radiused wheel only has a usable flat grinding surface of 1", and that can be deceiving as you look at the whole spinning wheel and you may tend to fall off the rounded edge.

D-way makes the best-- solid steel wheel with no adhesive.

Ken Rizza's (Woodturning Wonders) are good and he will special order non-rounded wheels for you. His are aluminum with an adhesive bonded grit.

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Originally Posted by Tom Albrecht

If you are not sharpening the small 1/4" tools used for hollowing, I would advise staying away from the radiused edge wheels. A 1 1/2" wide radiused wheel only has a usable flat grinding surface of 1", and that can be deceiving as you look at the whole spinning wheel and you may tend to fall off the rounded edge.

D-way makes the best-- solid steel wheel with no adhesive.

Ken Rizza's (Woodturning Wonders) are good and he will special order non-rounded wheels for you. His are aluminum with an adhesive bonded grit.

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Tom - how is the CBN bonded to the D-Way steel wheel and why is it better?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,
Dave's wheels are electroplated and he can tell you more about what that means. Like a lot of our woodturning suppliers, he runs a small family business and he's more than happy to bend your ear if you call him, same with Ken Rizza.

Here is a link to the D-way website page on CBN wheels: http://http://d-waytools.com/cbn-grinding-wheels

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Originally Posted by Mike Goetzke

how is the CBN bonded to the D-Way steel wheel and why is it better?

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I believe the aluminum wheels are made the same way. The aluminum can be a lighter weight than thick steel wheels which MIGHT be an issue when starting up an under-powered grinder. Someone on another forum mentioned with two steel wheels he gave the wheels a little push by hand to help get them up to speed. I don't know if they were Dave's wheels, though.

I know one person experimenting with using water with a CBN wheel. His steel wheel started rusting right away. Keep it away from water, should be no problem unless cycles of cold/condensation tend to rust everything in the shop (but that would be a bigger problem)

Rizza said he went with aluminum wheels for a couple of reasons. I'm sure he would be happy to talk about it if you give him a call. Nice guy. I got flat honing plates from him also, both CBN and diamond. He can order almost any thing you can imagine if you are not in a hurry. He also now sells a complete package with wheels on a grinder. (No, I don't work for him or get a commission!)

I suspect you would be happy with either type of wheel. If you haven't done so, you might want to read Reed Grey's writeup on CBN wheels:
http://www.robohippy.net/featured-article/

JKJ

I am not positive, but I don't think that electroplating and aluminum work together.

I believe both aluminum and steel CBN wheels are electroplated. Not sure about the specifics of the process, and it may be some what different for aluminum and steel. Some questioned about how well the aluminum hubs would work compared to steel. As long as Ken's wheels have been out on the market, if it was an issue of it not bonding properly, we would have heard all about it by now.

I have heard of some of the Tormek CBN wheel users keeping the water bath going, but only for a short time due to the rust factor, and you just plain don't need it. If I was going for a wet wheel, I would use oil like Trend. Any slow or high speed standard grinder would leave you wet if you are in the line of fire...

robo hippy

Actually electroplating works very well with Aluminum, you must use a different setup, but it works well.

Plating Aluminium is possible, but not easy, there are several steps involved to do this, Copper, Brass and Steel are much easier done and with less problems afterwards if any.

The process is getting more refined as time goes on and more experience is gained, look at the plated Aluminium wheels on cars, there used to be lots of problems with that, not so much anymore it seems.

Attachment 351352

When I bought my Rikon slow speed grinder I wanted to install 2 CBN wheels on it but I was concerned about the added weight of CBN. I went ahead and ordered two CBN wheels from Woodturners Wonders and when I got them, I compared the weight of the original (unused) stone wheels vs. the CBN wheels. The CBN wheels turned out to several ounces lighter.

I pity anyone just starting out thinking that they couldn't try this great hobby without all the exotic tools we all mention. Any one remember oh so long ago when high speed steel and aluminum oxide white wheels were the order of the day ? This being said however I love technology but the prices can be unrealistic for a retired fella ...Just sayin'

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Originally Posted by Scott Ticknor

I pity anyone just starting out thinking that they couldn't try this great hobby without all the exotic tools we all mention. Any one remember oh so long ago when high speed steel and aluminum oxide white wheels were the order of the day ? This being said however I love technology but the prices can be unrealistic for a retired fella ...Just sayin'

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Right on Scott, I wasn’t brought up to discard all the tried and true and replace all with the latest (better and best, like the whiter than white etc) to have to do it all over again in a year or two.

Use what works and save your money works for me, as this is no production shop, some extra seconds don’t count up to much here, having sharpened HSS in a production shop with good results with Carborundum wheels, and even carbide with the friable green silicone carbide wheels, granted a diamond wheel is a much better wheel for that and are affordable now for a production shop, not in that time.

I am still using the tried and true Carborundum wheels as I have done for 60 years, and my HSS tools get plenty sharp, and that HSS has proven to be an excellent steel for woodworking tools, yes carbide is better for metal, not so much for wood IMO.

My 10 inch grinder here, I have a couple other ones that are also used for some sharpening on my smaller tools.

Attachment 351354

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Originally Posted by Scott Ticknor

I pity anyone just starting out thinking that they couldn't try this great hobby without all the exotic tools we all mention. Any one remember oh so long ago when high speed steel and aluminum oxide white wheels were the order of the day ? This being said however I love technology but the prices can be unrealistic for a retired fella ...Just sayin'

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But….then what’s a retailer to do?
If they can’t sell yah the latest unobtainium whatchamacallit?
That’s an unknowable percent better than the last solution?
That worked just fine.....


Its just marketing.
Gotta increase the GDP somehow. :)


(yah, I’m cynical, but my wife endorses it. And she’s in marketing)

Olaf

Hey, come on now. I'm retired too. And I don't just buy up all the newest stuff either, but you have to admit that there is a lot of new technology that benefits mankind in general, and woodturners too. When my friable 8" wheels were worn down to replacement size it made sense to spend a few dollars more to get something that will not need to be replaced again.

I have five sons. One of them is a woodturner-- he, and my grand daughters, are going to make a haul when the time comes.

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Originally Posted by Tom Albrecht

I am not positive, but I don't think that electroplating and aluminum work together.

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I do believe that I was told that the aluminum wheels are resin bonded...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott Ticknor

I pity anyone just starting out thinking that they couldn't try this great hobby without all the exotic tools we all mention. Any one remember oh so long ago when high speed steel and aluminum oxide white wheels were the order of the day ? This being said however I love technology but the prices can be unrealistic for a retired fella ...Just sayin'

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Originally Posted by Leo Van Der Loo

Right on Scott, I wasn’t brought up to discard all the tried and true and replace all with the latest (better and best, like the whiter than white etc) to have to do it all over again in a year or two.

Use what works and save your money works for me, as this is no production shop, some extra seconds don’t count up to much here, having sharpened HSS in a production shop with good results with Carborundum wheels, and even carbide with the friable green silicone carbide wheels, granted a diamond wheel is a much better wheel for that and are affordable now for a production shop, not in that time.

I am still using the tried and true Carborundum wheels as I have done for 60 years, and my HSS tools get plenty sharp, and that HSS has proven to be an excellent steel for woodworking tools, yes carbide is better for metal, not so much for wood IMO.

My 10 inch grinder here, I have a couple other ones that are also used for some sharpening on my smaller tools.

Attachment 351354

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Originally Posted by Olaf Vogel

But….then what’s a retailer to do?
If they can’t sell yah the latest unobtainium whatchamacallit?
That’s an unknowable percent better than the last solution?
That worked just fine.....


Its just marketing.
Gotta increase the GDP somehow. :)


(yah, I’m cynical, but my wife endorses it. And she’s in marketing)

Olaf

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I'm not implying in any way that someone needs to buy "exotic" tools to try woodturning. I, myself started with an entire set of generic HSS tools that costs less than 50 bucks and as stated earlier, I still use a few of them. As time goes on, they are being replaced with better quality because it just makes since to do so. As for price, an unhandled Thompson bowl gouge and its exotic make up is about 65 bucks. An unhandled Sorby bowl gouge in the same size for example, is about 80 bucks. Thompson steel holds an edge something like 27 times longer than standard HSS. How many of those Sorby gouges and other brands will be ground down to a nub and need replacing before I grind away all of my exotic steel? Even with the cost of the exotic grinding wheels I'm shopping, I'm probably still gonna see a savings in the long run. Its more than marketing and may actually be more cost effective for a retired fella!

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Originally Posted by Tom Albrecht

Hey, come on now. I'm retired too. And I don't just buy up all the newest stuff either...

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I knew about the value of CBN for years before I decided to get them. They are cheap enough for me now.

But we should remember people turned amazing things for centuries without HSS tools, CBN wheels, VFD lathes, live centers, MT tapers, and scroll chucks. And even without electric motors.

I remember reading a report from an Englishman in the 1600s about a woodturner in India turning household items and finishing with friction polish (lac). I suspect he didn't sharpen Thompson tools on CBN wheels!

JKJ

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Originally Posted by Dennis Collier

I'm not implying in any way that someone needs to buy "exotic" tools to try woodturning. I, myself started with an entire set of generic HSS tools that costs less than 50 bucks and as stated earlier, I still use a few of them. As time goes on, they are being replaced with better quality because it just makes since to do so. As for price, an unhandled Thompson bowl gouge and its exotic make up is about 65 bucks. An unhandled Sorby bowl gouge in the same size for example, is about 80 bucks. Thompson steel holds an edge something like 27 times longer than standard HSS. How many of those Sorby gouges and other brands will be ground down to a nub and need replacing before I grind away all of my exotic steel? Even with the cost of the exotic grinding wheels I'm shopping, I'm probably still gonna see a savings in the long run. Its more than marketing and may actually be more cost effective for a retired fella!

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Nor am I saying that you should or should not, what I’m saying is, use what works for you, throwing more $$ at it will not necessarily make you a better turner or turn nicer pieces.

Paying a $150-- rather than $40-- with about the same end results doesn’t make much sense to me, Happy turning :D

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Originally Posted by Tom Albrecht

Hey, come on now. I'm retired too. And I don't just buy up all the newest stuff either, but you have to admit that there is a lot of new technology that benefits mankind in general, and woodturners too. When my friable 8” wheels were worn down to replacement size it made sense to spend a few dollars more to get something that will not need to be replaced again.You hope ;)

I have five sons. One of them is a woodturner-- he, and my grand daughters, are going to make a haul when the time comes.

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Tom use what works for you, how long did the wheels last on your grinder ??, where they the better wheels ??, I know I won’t wear my grinder wheels out by a long shot, unless someone makes me last another lifetime, doubt that very much :eek: ;)

Yup some good stuff around we never had before, but the 50 year old wood lathes are probably better than the new ones, even without the VFD on them that you could add, and that is an improvement some also don’t want to pay for ;)

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Originally Posted by Tom Albrecht

I do believe that I was told that the aluminum wheels are resin bonded...

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Here’s some info on the different bonded cbn grinding wheels that Norton makes :)

Plus another makers wanted info when ordering.

Attachment 351575

OK were did you get a CBN wheel for $125.00, what type.

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Originally Posted by Robert Willing

OK were did you get a CBN wheel for $125.00, what type.

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Ken Rizza has a special for $125 per wheel but you have to buy two, a good idea anyway I think.
http://woodturnerswonders.com/collec...0-and-180-grit
Choice of grits. Knowing Ken he would probably give you any combination of grits, even if not on his list. Maybe get a friend to go in with you?