I am thinking about getting a doweling jig. I would greatly appreciate recommendations.
Thanks!
Mike
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I am thinking about getting a doweling jig. I would greatly appreciate recommendations.
Thanks!
Mike
dowelmax gets good reviews. search for it on this forum.
I had a dowel max for a couple years. 100 percent satisfied. I believe the Jessem gets better reviews and is cheaper. If you buy either, take heart that if ou are not satisfied you will likely be able to sell it for close to your purchase price.
I've used and abused this model for about 30 years now, never needed anything more.
TASK
Attachment 228367
- Beachside Hank
I have the Jessem and love it.
Mortise Pal does dowels and floating tenons. A little pricey, but you get a tool that is versatile and lines up your work in an almost fool proof way (coming from an occasional fool, this is something I can attest to). http://www.mortisepal.com/
bill wrote a great review on the jessem version:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...-dowel-jig-WOW!!!!
The Mortise Pal will do dowels but it is not very versatile in doing it. The DowelMax and the Jessem are much much more versatile then the MP. The MP also uses a router were the other 2 just use a drill and they both have drill bushing on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hawser
I vote for the Jessem. I believe I ordered mine direct from them.
Here is my write up on the Jessem, I was a DowelMax user and the DowelMax is a very good tool.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ghlight=Jessem
Now that I have had the Jessem about 2 years I am still very happy with it and would not go back to the DowelMax, again the DowelMax is a good jig but I like the Jessem better.
Here are some pictures of my Jessem case and a few other things that I have done with it.
http://www.pbase.com/wlhuber/jessem_doweling_jig
I have a Dowl-it. Made in Michigan.
http://www.dowl-it.com/
You can fine tune the centering by loosening a screw, and turning the threads in the back. Handy feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk Rian
I had the same one. Worked very well, IMO. But, then I stopped to think and said to myself "Why?". Sold it here, when I stumbled across it in the way-back, after it had collected 10 years of dust.
I actually have a question.....when and why would one use dowels? They did not improve the quality or alignment of joinery over M+T. In fact, my M+T was better. Maybe it was nothing more than an improving skill level on my part, which most certainly had a lot of headroom on the learning curve...and still does.
I am not saying one should not use dowels, nor am I dissing any of these products. If it works for you, then it is absolutely the right approach.
I'm just asking the question......??
Thanks
Kent
For me the dowel are much faster and much easier and after the joint is done no one will know what is in there anyway. It could be dowels or it could be a M&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst
As to the alignment with the DowelMax and the Jessem setting dowel for a joint will be spot on, that is the really nice thing about those tools.
I agree there is more glue surface with a M&T but at this point the things I am building really don't need more strength then a good dowel joint provides.
I agree with Kent (above). For strength, I'd much prefer mortise and tenon. You'd have to put in a lot of dowels to get the equivalent long-grain-to-long-grain surface area as you get with a mortise. You may not even have room in the joint area for that many dowels.
For alignment during panel glue-up, I'd use cauls. The only thing I've ever used dowels for (in furniture) is the alignment pins for the leaves of an expanding dining table.
Mike
what do you suspect the furniture manufacturers use? they could probably get away with dowels since all the corners are usually braced anyways.
I used dowels and the Dowl-it to build this step ladder for my wife. Just thought it would be a nice way to make it. Nice and easy. I also use M&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst
Attachment 228409
I have the Dowelmax and love it. Very precision piece of equipment. I was very impressed with this company's customer service. I had lots of questions about the Dowelmax before I bought it, and the owner was very helpful.
Assuming the same length, 3, 3/8" dowels gives you aproximately the same glueing surface as a 1.5" x 3/8" tenon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Henderson
Pretty good, I think.
Tim
I built this phone charging station / organizer using almost nothing except dowels, using the Jessem jig. Mortise and tenon didn't really seem appropriate here. I thought about using rabbets, but didn't think it would look right. I also thought about using stopped dados with what would have essentially been stub tenons, but dowels seemed much easier, especially when using the jig.
The panel in front of the phones flips down using a Soss invisible hinge, and I drilled the holes for that using the jig as well. The only other parts that weren't done with dowels are the phone tray itself (which flips up), as that uses a 1/8" rod for a hinge, and the joinery between the drawer fronts and sides, as that uses a pinned sliding rabbeted dovetail.
Attachment 228410
I also built some small knockdown shelves for holiday dolls for my mother-in-law using dowels and the Jessem jig. That's incomplete though since it's not due until the fall, and needs to be painted an appropriate holiday color.
I've done M&T for other work. The learning tower I built for my son is M&T, but I did consider using dowels instead. I went with M&T because I haven't done a lot of them so I wanted the practice, and because I was honestly worried about racking. But the work I've done with dowels so far doesn't have any racking concern at all, so going with dowels on those shouldn't be a problem at all.
In support of Bill's position; good enough, satisfactory, sufficient, acceptable, suitable, reasonable, agreeable, adequate, all right- these words do not necessarily mean compromise in any construction, just a point at which nothing further of substance will be gained by additional effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Huber
- Beachside Hank
Well, let's do a little math and see how it comes out. First, let's compute the long grain to long grain surface area of three 3/8" dowels, and assume they protrude into the material by 1.5" (on both sides). First, I'll compute the surface area of three 3/8" dowels, each 1.5". The surface area of a cylinder is given by the equation 2*PI*h*r (this excludes the area of the ends), where h= length of the dowel protruding into the wood, and r= the radius of the dowel (3/16" in this example). Each side of the joint (3 dowels in this example), therefore, will have a surface area of about 5.3 sq inch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Janssen
But that's not the long grain to long grain surface area. Some of the dowel will be facing end grain and will not be a strong joint. The amount of long grain to long grain changes as you move around the dowel, but on average, the long grain to long grain surface area will be half of the total area of the dowel. So the effective gluing surface (long grain to long grain) of three 3/8" dowels, 1.5" into the wood, is about 2.6 sq inches. [See note below]
Now, let's examine the tenon. The first question is how wide can you make the tenon? Three 3/8" dowels will take 1 1/8" (3 times 3/8") and there needs to be some space between them. Let's assume there's 1/8" between the dowels. That's about 1 3/8" total width. The area of one face of the tenon will be the width (1 3/8") times the depth (1.5"), or about 2 sq inches.
But the tenon has two faces and both are long grain to long grain so the total effective gluing surface of the tenon is 4.125 sq inches.
So the tenon has about 55% more long grain to long grain surface area than the dowels. And, of course, that's why dowel joints come apart long before mortise and tenon joints.
I think I did all that math correctly, but please check my calculations and let me know if you find any errors.
Mike
[To help visualize why only half of the dowel is long grain to long grain, visualize the dowel as being square, but with the same total surface area as the cylinder dowel. Two sides will face end grain and two sides will face long grain. So the long grain to long grain surface area is half the total area.]
I've repaired a lot of chairs that used dowels in the joint between the back and the seat. Usually, the only thing holding the chair together was the corner block. But the chair was more like a rocking chair than a dining room chair - but it was not supposed to rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by frank shic
Mike
lol an unintentional "feature" ;)
One underlying issue I had - that's me, not necessarily anyone else - with dowels was the same I had with biscuits from has-been-sold plate joiner: joint alignment.
I freely admit that I used dowels and biscuits when I was just getting started, because they simply "seemed" to be the easy and straightforward method, but joint alignment was only one of a never-ending list of problems I dealt with when I "knew-less-than-nothing".
I found - again, maybe due to movement on the learning curve all the way up to "knows slightly more than nothing" - that my alignment with M+T was better than the others. Of course, I have a very nice mortiser to help, and a tenoning jig for the TS. But....funny how these things progress.....I only break out the tenoning jig these days when I have a qty of repeating tenons. Any more, usually, I use the TS for the shoulders, and the BS for the slightly-oversize cheeks, and tune 'em up with a block plane or shoulder plane, or - today's fave - face float.
Also - never say never, because I just finished a workbench for a non-WW neighbor/client. He rebuilds/restores motorcycles, and this will be his engine bench. It has 3 drawers across the top of the case, and 3 sliding "trays" across the bottom - to hold in-process engines. The drawers and the trays were made with 1/2" and 3/4" ply, sides butt-joined and bottoms just slipped inside, and everything put together with.....dowels. No doweling jig, mind you, but still - about 150 1/4" x 2" fluted dowels. I have no doubt that his small-displacement Italian Parilla engines [his current "kick"] are quite safe with that construction.
It's like every other technique in our game - if it is working for you, then by definition it is the right approach.
I use them whenever I have to edge join two pieces of 3/4" plywood.Quote:
I actually have a question.....when and why would one use dowels?
Odd reason/odd use, I admit, but, dowels work better than anything else.
I've salvaged a good bit of otherwise waste pieces that work fine for shop jigs and fixtures & shelves and such for shop cabinets.
W/the way plywood is layered, glue alone isn't strong enough & biscuits are too hit or miss @ hitting alayer of wood instead of glue.
The round dowels hit a few layers of wood - just enough to give a decently strong bond.
I'm sure there's other more legitimate uses - but - I've salvaged enough scraps that my little $12.00 Rockler jig has paid for itself many times over.
I did a lot of research and went with the Jessem last year. it was a razor thin margin for jessem and the features/factors were personal preference...NOT any quality issues. both are great dowel jigs that are incredibly well made and from what I have read and seen, both are fully capable of enabling the user to do precise, repeatable joinery with ease.
why jessem over dowelmax?
2 main reasons.
price:
jessem was about $75 less expensive.
system for width changes:
the jessem expands without additional pieces, the dowelmax uses extra shim pieces for expanding the width. I tend to lose stuff like that...so I wanted the jig to be just one piece of kit.
one area that i believe dowelmax is slightly better than jessem is the method to move the jig over with the extender...the jessem uses 2 threaded rods and a joining block whereas the dowelmax uses just one rod. the dowelmax system of just one extension rod looks less complex, faster and easier to use.
just my 2 cents. i've used the jessem multiple times and i wouldn't want to dowel without it.
I agree with you on the this, what I have found is I don't screw the rods into the the base, I turn them around and just push the main base against them and it works very well and is much easier then the screwing the rods into the main base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Behnke
I definitely agree with you - edge gluing plywood to plywood is not a strong joint - you need something to help hold the two pieces together. I use Dominos now but I've used biscuits in the past. Dowels would work but getting the alignment side-to-side seems difficult compared to biscuits. If one hole is just a bit out of alignment, you've got a problem getting the two pieces together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Engelhardt
Mike
Mike have you ever use a DowelMax or a Jessem jig?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Henderson
The alignment is just not a problem at all, again that is the great thing about these jigs. You use a reference plate for all the holes and as long as you are using the same reference for all parts you will get a perfect aligned joint.
I have the Jessem version and recently used it extensively in a cabinet build.
It's a very well built unit and very accurate. I suppose it's as good as (or better) than Dowelmax but both of these have their drawbacks.
First, it's not as fast as I thought, for example if you are doing dowels on the edge (on one piece) and on face (on another) like cabinets you'll have to change the setup
on the jig for each drilling.
Would I buy it again? yes.
does it replace M/T joins? not all of them, I'd still use M/T for most my furniture applications.
Is it accurate? Yes, very.
Is the Jessem a good price? yes.
I have a dowel jig but not the DowelMax or Jessem. I can easily see that alignment top-to-bottom can be maintained with a jig. The jig I have will put the hole exactly in the middle of the wood (if that's what I want). The problem is how to get alignment of the holes along the edge (side-to-side). If one hole is drilled just a millimeter or two to the side of the corresponding hole in the other piece, things will not line up when you go to put the pieces together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Huber
Let's say you use four dowels to edge join two pieces of plywood. Three of the hole pairs match up exactly, but one hole pair is off by two mm. When you go to put the two pieces of plywood together, they won't go together. You then have to drill the offending hole oversize or hammer the pieces together.
Compare that to a biscuit joiner or Domino. The alignment of the slots/mortises can be maintained from the reference surface (one face of the plywood), but the slots/mortises are wider than the biscuit or domino that goes into them. So when you go to put the two pieces of plywood together, you have some side to side slop to work with. You never have a situation where the pieces will not go together.
Also, I find the biscuit joiner or Domino a lot faster than the set-up of a dowel jig.
Mike
to address this issue, you'd loos a pin (like a dowel) to make sure the distances of the dowels are exactly the same, you use that pin to fix one of the dowel jig holes with the holes you haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike Henderson
drilled. As long as your dowels are not more than 12" or so apart getting them precisely the same distance is not a problem at all.
It is obvious that there is nothing anyone can say for you to understand that these jigs are very very accurate, these are not your normal old dowel jig. I can join two boards together with these jigs and you can not feel the joint. By using the spacer rods you can space the dowels just as accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Henderson
These jig are just as accurate as a Domino and cost much much less.
I just don't see why you keep coming back with the same old thing about accuracy when you have never used one.
I am with Bill H. At least with the Dowelmax, I'd put it up head to head against ANY jig - LM&T, dowel, or otherwise in terms of accuracy.
Also in terms of speed, it's fast 'enough'. I mean, I was able to make all apron and leg joints for a table in about 10 minutes - and most important it was so easy to use.
Personally, I find plenty of proper applications for dowels.
Actually, I never praised the Domino as being exceptionally accurate. What I said was that the Domino (or a biscuit joiner) can be very accurate to the reference surface, as can be a dowel jig.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Huber
The advantage of the Domino (or biscuit joiner) is that they don't have to be accurate in the perpendicular direction because the slot or mortise can be made wider than necessary. They only require accuracy in one dimension.
The problem with any dowel jig is that it must be accurate in two dimensions or the dowels will not line up. I'm sure that dowel jigs can be made that can be accurate in two dimensions but they may require additional equipment to get the second dimension accuracy, and may require additional time to set up for that accuracy. With the Domino or biscuit joiner, you draw a line across the two pieces where you want the biscuit/domino and push your tool into the wood at that approximate location. You can cut slots/mortises as fast as you can move the tool from one location to another - there's no setup required for each cut.
My preferences are just that - my preferences. I'm providing you with the rational behind my preferences. Your preferences may differ and you should use whatever you like.
Mike
My only issue with Jessem is quality issues in the past. I purchased one of their items & had problems. Took weeks to resolve the problem & I ended up sending the item back. I believe it had to do with moving or selling the company. Can't remember. Hopefully someone will chime in & correct me with positive comments regarding their current status.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe milana
I don't know if Jessem is having problems or not. I ordered their doweling jig from Tool Corral back in January. It was one of the few places I could find it and they have it on Sale for $175. It has been on backorder and it keeps getting pushed out. I'm was not in a hurry at the time and price was more important. That being said, DeWalt seems to be having the same problem with some of their Tracksaw parts.
Mike,
I took the following pictures for you to show how you can do indexing using a pin (provided with the jig) to get accurately distanced holes.
I suppose the pictures are clear enough to show the process. I didn't bother change the drill bit stop when doing the face drilling so the bit went
all the way through (but you'd need to change the drill bit depth stop).
Attachment 228449Attachment 228448Attachment 228451Attachment 228450Attachment 228453Attachment 228452Attachment 228455Attachment 228454
Thanks, Mreza. I understand how it works.
Mike