Power tools in Europe (long)

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10-11-2003, 1:20 PM
Christian Aufreiter

Power tools in Europe (long)

Hi folks,

having read some posts about Ridgid and Metabo on the different ww forums, I decided to put in my opinion on HAND HELD power tools in Europe. My comments are based on personal experience, conversations with other woodworkers and on the information I received by watching professionals and their tools.
Due to the fact that I’m just 18 years old and buy high quality stuff I have, of course, not tried all different tools and brands so my point of view is certainly not absolutely objective.

(Brands are in alphabetical order)

AEG/Atlas Copco/Milwaukee: 

http://www.aeg-pt.de/
http://www.atlascopco.com
http://www.milwaukee.de/ (most annoying site, you can’t view the different tools without password)
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/site.nsf

I have a 30+ year-old AEG hammer drill with circular saw, angle grinder and orbital sander attachment. There’s even a table to use the saw as table saw. At the time these tools were made AEG was independent of Atlas Copco. The quality is quite good, the drill got some new brushes I think and still works after it saw a lot of use when my dad built our house. As far as I know Milwaukee is the professional line of the company since 2003. Many tools, offered in the US, are not available in Europe. As a lack of experience I can’t comment on their current tools but in general they make a good impression.
Atlas Copco is also known for compressors, pneumatic tools etc.

Black & Decker/Elu/Dewalt: 

http://www.blackanddecker.de/
http://www.blackanddecker.com/
http://www.elu.de/
http://www.dewalt.de/
http://www.dewalt.com/us/core/

Let me start with the Black & Decker-Elu-Dewalt-relations (as far as I know), for those who are not familiar with.
Long time ago B & D started selling rather cheap tools in Europe. These tools were primarily designed for the hobbyist. But also professionals bought them and where rather disappointed of the quality. Then B & D introduced a "profi line" and hoped that professionals would buy these tools. But these tools were hardly successful because B & D was associated with hobby woodworker quality.
Now B & D needed a solution in order to win professional woodworkers as their customers. Then they found this company Eugen Lutz (ELU) which was a highly regarded brand in Europe, especially because of their routers, hand held power planers, mitre saws, ... Finally B & D bought this company and added more and more B & D tools to the Elu line. In other parts of the world Elu products were sold under the Dewalt label. The famous DW 621 router was in fact developed by Elu as OF 97. Personally, I question if Dewalt themselves would have been able to make such a good tool. Anyway, about three years ago (year 2000) B & D decided change Elu to Dewalt and from this time on, Elu was no longer available.

Actually, Black and Decker is a brand name but I regard them more or less as no name tools. They introduced interesting, multi-functional tools in the last year, for example the Versa Pack cordless system and the “Multischleifer” (multi sander). I tried this sander and can say that it doesn’t sand very aggressively, nor does it leave an outstandingly smooth surface, has not enough power, poor dust collection and extremely high vibration (out old AEG attachment worked much better). IMO you can’t combine ROS and orbital sander if you expect high quality.
Elu would be one of my brands if it were still available. I don’t really trust Dewalt and their strategies. They constantly change the locations of the factories and I’m not conscious that they continue the famous Elu quality. Elu introduced “power boxes” (= Systainers as we know them from Festool) and Dewalt took them out of program again. I’m not complaining about the Systainers but I don’t understand why Dewalt doesn’t offer them. More and more companies (Makita, Metabo, Mafell, Lamello, Protool) introduced Systainers and at the same time Dewalt stopped selling them.
The Dewalt cordless stuff looks great but I wonder who needs a 24 V drill. It really annoys me that Dewalt is much more expensive here than in the US.
For example: DW 980K2 costs EUR 357.6, which is $ 421.36 at today’s rate.

Bosch/Skil: 

http://www.bosch-pt.de
http://www.boschtools.com/homepage.htm
http://www.skil.com/

Skil tools are regarded as low-end stuff. Personally, I never used their tools and don’t see any reason why to try them.
Bosch has two lines here: Green for the hobbyist, blue for the professional. The differences between green and blue vary from tool to tool. While the blue jigsaw is a completely different tool than the green model, differences other than the color are hardly visible on some circular saws.
Again, not all American tools are available here, which is also true the other way round (check the blue jigsaws, for example). IMO Bosch makes good tools but lacks are thorough system thought. Their tool boxes are sometimes too small to hold the tool properly, you need even adapters to make Bosch tools fit a Bosch vac etc. Bosch offers a wide range of rotary hammers, now a huge cordless program and very nice jigsaws. During the past years, Bosch introduced new, innovative tools like the “Varioschleifer”, micro dust bags, “Feinschnittsäge”, etc. Other tools look also good but don’t seem to be outstanding.

Duss: 

http://www.duss.de/index.html

Famous for rotary hammer drills for heavy duty use. I never used Duss but professionals claim that the hammer drills are comparable to Hilti.

Fein: 

http://www.fein.de/
http://www.feinus.com/

Finest engineering and excellent quality. I’d go with Fein tools if I were working with metal. Fein doesn’t offer many tools for woodworkers but I’d like to see one of their corded screw drivers and the Minimaster in my shop.

Flex/Porter Cable: 

http://www.flex-tools.de/
http://www.portercable.com/

I know that Flex invented the angle grinder many years ago and that’s it. Many PC tools are not available here and I don’t even know where to check out Flex locally.

Hilti: 

http://www.hilti.de/
http://www.hilti.com/

Industrial standard in rotary hammer drills. Exceptional quality, I use an old TE 12S which I got from my granddad. Special tools for measuring, fastening etc.
Apart from this stuff and the rotary hammers, most tools are made by Bosch.

Holz Her: 

High-end carpentry and woodworking tools. Offered a nice plunge saws and guide rails. As far as I know TTS bought them in 2000 and now offers some of their tools.

Kress: 

http://www.kress-elektrik.de/

Offers two lines: Blue for the hobbyist, red for the professional. I have a hammer drill which I like. It was made some years ago when Kress had only one single line. Some of their tools are average, I’d say, others (biscuit joiner, red ROS, red cordless drills, etc) offer good value for the money. The power cord of the blue line is way too short.

Lamello: 

http://www.lamello.com/

Lamello makes the biscuit joiners of my dreams. IMO professionals use almost exclusively their biscuit joiners.

Mafell: 

http://www.mafell.de/
http://www.mafell.com/

Famous for the Erika Pull-push saws. Mafell concentrates on carpentry tools but offers also great stuff for fine woodworking. It’s the only company from Festool (as far as I know) which offers plunge saws. I think it was last year they invented the “DuoDübler” an almost revolutionary product. This year they came out with a new circular saw and a flexible guide rail. This rail is 1.4 m long and can be transported with the saw in a single systainer.

Makita: 

http://www.makita.de/
http://www.makita.com/

Many professionals use Maktia cordless drills, which might be a kind of tradition because Makita is said to be one of the first companies which offered good cordless drills. Their cordless stuff is still impressive but kind of oversized in some cases IMO. I use an older 7.2 cordless drill and I’m satisfied although I had a problem some years ago. Professionals also seem to like their portable planes which I don’t really understand. The dust port is fixed (other brands allow the customer to change it from the right to the left side) and power cords are too short (on other tools too).
10-11-2003, 1:22 PM
Christian Aufreiter

Unfortunately, it was impossible to send the whole text in one post.
Here's the rest:

Metabo: 

http://www.metabo.de/
http://www.metabo.com/com/english/

One of my buddies from Germany works almost exclusively with Metabo and is very satisfied with it. Metabo offers stationary power tools (for the hobbyist) too and is also the owner of Elektra Beckum and Lurem. I think Metabo makes high quality tools but nothing really outstanding. Metabo doesn’t offer different lines but looking trough the catalogue you can easily discover the premium stuff, check their ROS’s for comparison, for example.

Panasonic: 

http://www.panasonic.de
http://www.panasonic.com/flash.html

Their tools are available but hardly known here.

Scheer: 

http://www.cfscheer.de/

Scheer’s main field are large stationary power tools but they also make routers. I was looking at their tools before I got mine and that’s my impression. The design is often “agricultural” the quality seems very high, the prices are very high. A midsize router (comparable to the DW 621 which seems to be standard in the US) would have cost EUR 673.96, which I wasn’t willing to spend. Scheer offers a high-end routing system for stairs. Producing stairs their unit might be worth the cost.

Tooltechnicsystems: 

http://www.tooltechnicsystems.com/

Is the name of a company under which three individual companies work together:
Festool (tools for woodworking, painting, automotive branch)
Protool (concentrates on construction and carpentry)
Tanos (invented the famous Systainer)

Festool: 

http://www.festool.de/
http://www.festool-usa.com/portando/index.cfm

Festool is my – and many professionals’ – preference. A few days ago I looked into the car of a company which does remodelling jobs. I found a shelf full of Festool Systainers inside.
The reason why Festool has such an excellent reputation is that they offer almost unique tools in some fields. Let me give you a few examples:
The cordless drill with right angle and eccentric attachment
The jigsaw with the CP guide
The plunge saw which is the best example. Mafell is the only company (as far as I know) which offers a comparable saw. Years ago there was a third one - Holzher - but Festool finally bought it. This shows that there are hardly any competitors in the class and while Mafell has excellent saws they don't offer the wide range of accessories for saw and guide rails.
Last year Festool celebrated 40 years of Festool guide rails. So they were probably the first or one of the first brands which offered such a system. As a professional who has been satisfied for more than 25 years why should you buy another brand?
This might be the reason why Festool is almost alone in this field. A company would be successful at selling plunge saws if they were way cheaper or way better as Festool. Way cheaper is difficult if you want the same grade of quality and way better is apparently difficult too, otherwise Bosch, Metabo, etc would offer such a saw.
As for the ROS, it works almost without vibrations, has an excellent dust collection (another Festool feature: you don't need adapters in connection with a Festool hose), VS, ....
Festool has a 30 days money back guarantee and a three year warranty, another unique feature.

Protool: 

http://www.protool.de/protool/de/index.htm

Is a rather new company within the TTS organization. While Festool concentrates on “fine woodworking”, Protool offers tools for rough carpentry and building jobs.

Tanos: 

http://www.tanos.de/

I hope I could give you somewhat of an idea what the situation is like in Europe and I’m willing to answer your questions if I’m able to.

Regards,

Christian Aufreiter, Austria

PS: If I forgot an important brand, let me know!
10-11-2003, 1:51 PM
Christian Aufreiter

Of course, I forgot a company. A few minutes ago I recieved an email for a friendly guy who pointed out that I didn't mention Hitachi.
Hitachi isn't quite popular here and I'm not familar with their tools. I saw a cordless drill at my local store but didn't pay much attention to it. It was quite simple without highlights.

Regards,

Christian
10-11-2003, 11:41 PM
Howard Barlow

Great info, Christian. I am trying to buy a tablesaw in Russia. All I could find on my last trip, in September, was antique designs or big $$$$$$ Italian types.

I see Mafell has some. I sent them an email. Do you know of any other tablesaws available in Europe that resemble U.S. type saws? I'm looking for about a 10", 3 hp Unisaw/Jet/ Powermatic type.

Thanks
10-12-2003, 9:29 AM
Christian Aufreiter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

Great info, Christian. I am trying to buy a tablesaw in Russia. All I could find on my last trip, in September, was antique designs or big $$$$$$ Italian types.

I see Mafell has some. I sent them an email. Do you know of any other tablesaws available in Europe that resemble U.S. type saws? I'm looking for about a 10", 3 hp Unisaw/Jet/ Powermatic type.

Thanks

Hi Howard,

the Mafell Erika saws are mobile saws. They give certainly good results in the shop, too, but they are primarily designed for the job-site. If you're looking for this kind of saw check out the Festool Precision (NOT available in the US!) http://212.172.181.83/festool.com/ca...3DB553D4ACE066
I'm not an expert for large machinery but let me see if I can help you. Good Euro saws for the hobby woodworker start at $ 2000.
What do you expect from such a saw? - Euro-style sliding table, scoring, ...?
How much are you willing to spend?

Regards,

Christian
10-12-2003, 3:21 PM
Howard Barlow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Aufreiter

Hi Howard,

Good Euro saws for the hobby woodworker start at $ 2000.
What do you expect from such a saw? - Euro-style sliding table, scoring, ...?
How much are you willing to spend?

Regards,

Christian

The saw will be for an orphanage in Russia. The staff will use it for maintenance of the facility, as well as teaching the boys a trade.

While I don't have a specific amount in mind, $2000-2500 would probably be tops. I was hoping for much less, but...
10-12-2003, 4:34 PM
Christian Aufreiter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

The saw will be for an orphanage in Russia. The staff will use it for maintenance of the facility, as well as teaching the boys a trade.

While I don't have a specific amount in mind, $2000-2500 would probably be tops. I was hoping for much less, but...

Would you buy the saw in Russia? I have NO idea of prices, tax and availability there. I can only tell you what we have in Middle-Europe.
Big professional saws (for example Felder, Altendorf, Martin, SCM ...) cost a lot more than $ 2000.
Up to $ 2500 you can get decent saws for the hobby woodworker.
I recommend to look at Metabo. They have some different types and offer good quality (one of my buddies has an older Metabo table saw and many other Metabo tools and is extremely satisfied with quality and customer service). As far as I know Metabo sells many stationary tools to schools. I don't know about the current situation as school budgets are constantly cut but at my school we had a Metabo band saw and an edge sander.
http://www.metabo.com/com/english/pr...chines_magnum/
Elektra Beckum (which belongs to Metabo) might be another option
http://www.elektra-beckum.com/com/en...circular_saws/
Kity also makes a good impression. http://www.kityuk.com/ but I'd strongly recommend to check out these comments on a French ww forum http://www.cyberbricoleur.com/Dossie...c7f3787c7ed2a5
If I understood correctly Kity has/had financial problems. This doesn't mean that they can't make good tools but I'd check it out.
Scheppach http://www.scheppach.com/ doesn't have an English website so I'd look for distributors' websites in English in order to get more information.
Hammer http://www.hammer.at/ is certainly more expensive, I don't know about Rojek http://www.rojek.cz/welcome.asp

The Festool Precisio and the Mafell Erika are within your price range. Even with additional accessories like a sliding table.

You might like to read Phil Bumbalough's articles regarding table saws http://benchmark.20m.com/

Hope this helps,

Christian
10-12-2003, 5:12 PM
Howard Barlow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Aufreiter

Would you buy the saw in Russia?
Hope this helps,

Christian

It would make things easier if I could find one in Russia. Not only the logistics of physically handling it, but I have dealt with Russian customs on shipping items in. It isn't easy, it isn't cheap, it isn't theft proof. We will see.

Thanks for your help,
Howard
10-12-2003, 5:43 PM
Christian Aufreiter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

It would make things easier if I could find one in Russia. Not only the logistics of physically handling it, but I have dealt with Russian customs on shipping items in. It isn't easy, it isn't cheap, it isn't theft proof. We will see.

Thanks for your help,
Howard

I'll try to find out more and email you because I don't think this topic is of much public interest.
Did you check the links? Any saws that you like so far?

Regards,

Christian
10-12-2003, 6:19 PM
Howard Barlow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Aufreiter

I'll try to find out more and email you because I don't think this topic is of much public interest.
Did you check the links? Any saws that you like so far?

Regards,

Christian

Good idea.

I emailed Mafell. I may not have checked them all. I double check.

Howard