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The main electric tool in my shop is a sander and I'd like to use hand tools to finish the wood but I'm curious as to how well a scraping plane or smoothing plane can finish a project compared to sand paper.
General I use oil finishes but sometimes stain for contrast. Finishing is my weak area in overall knowledge and wanted to get others opinions on this subject.
No sandpaper can match the smoothness of a super sharp smoothing plane. For some finishes, you have to rough it up a little with sandpaper so it can take the finish.
This is one of those "I'll make the popcorn" subjects.
A lot of picky & intelligent folks claim that once a finish is applied, there's basically no difference.
I have a feeling that could be true, but I refuse to believe it. :)
This is a crotch section, done with a hand plane;
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...pshvwwiz6l.jpg
If the surface will be finished with a heavy polyurethane, no one will be able to tell the difference.
If the surface will be finished with a light oil or wax, almost everyone will be able to see the difference.
All else lies somewhere in between.
With a plane it is not difficult to get the surface smooth enough to see a reflection of another object. I have not seen this done with an electric sander.
jtk
I think it depends a lot on the finish. Obviously if you're going to do a 6-coat build of high-gloss poly varnish (with scuff-sanding between coats of course, because that's how they're designed to be used) then there will be no difference in the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Speers
At the other extreme I think I can tell the difference with "in the wood" finishes like oils, though the human capacity for self-delusion is not to be underestimated.
I beg to differ.
i cannot tell a difference between a properly sanded surface and a properly planed one. The issue is if you only sand up to 150 or 220. Like most people do. Then you can tell a differenc with your fingers and your eyes. But try sanding to higher grits like 600 or 1000 and tell me you can see or feel the difference with even the thinnest of oil finishes. I cant.
at the very least even if you can tell the difference, tell me the sanded finish is inferior. Again, we are talking about properly sanded.
for each of you in the other camp that sanding is inferior for inthewood finishes, lmk what sanding regimen you are comparing it to.
This is making me feel better. I was concerned that the plane finish would have a different appearance in a bad way.
I know traditionally one would have a smoothing plane and a scraper but is there a difference between the two?
Also just to make sure will a plane finish work with a stain or would it need to be sanded for proper absorbtion of the stain?
Jim. Would the light oil wax appearance be bad? Scratch marks etc... or better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Koepke
We're not going to agree here (there are sound reasons why Allan was reaching for the popcorn) so I'll restrict myself to one observation: The chief difference between planed and sanded wood is not a matter of smoothness. It's a matter of structure.
If you look at each under high magnification you'll see that even with high-grit sandpaper such as you propose, the structure of the wood (pores, rays, fibers, etc) is invariably disarranged by abrasion, whereas cutting with a very sharp blade leaves it mostly intact. That's why wood recognition guides invariably insist that the end grain must be planed before examination. The Hoadley book has high-quality micrographs that demonstrate this IIRC.
IMO the properly formulated question is therefore: Do those demonstrable structural differences translate to a perceptible difference in the appearance of the finished piece, when viewed under reasonable conditions.
I *think* that with at least some woods and some finishes I can see differences in contrast and depth. I don't think I can see any difference in smoothness, though.
FWIW I don't hold similar opinions about amplifiers or speaker cables :-).
EDIT: The structural differences in question are within the resolution of the unassisted, normal-acuity human visible system. They're over the accepted 1 arc-minute limit when viewed from the near point.
I understand why you have reservations about the differences in finish. In my relatively little experience, I can easily see a difference in the project before a finish is applied between sanded and planed surfaces. I have a hard time telling after the finish goes on. Because of this, my sander sits on a shelf and I have a square of 220 grit that gets whipped out every now and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark weathersbee
I made a bookshelf for my daughter out of poplar and stained it walnut color. With a hand planed surface, it had no trouble accepting the stain. Keep in mind, all species have little differences here and there. I recommend you test out some finishing experiments for yourself and draw some of your own conclusions. So many ways to get fulfillment in this hobby/craft.
You can always tell the difference between planed and abraded surfaces if you know what to look for. Okay, bury something under multiple coats of a ghastly plastic finish and all bets are off.
My favourite projects are finished with a plane and then the thinnest of finishes. Corners and edges are crisp and your fingers can tell with your eyes closed that something is different.
If you want finish to take uniformly (this includes colour) then abrading is king.
Having read the responses... My thought are that the look and feel you get with both is quite different and therefore you're desired end result is what will drive you're methods. A modern minimalist project probably won't lend itself well to leaving tool marks in the finished product whereas a reproduction shaker project will more than lend itself well to leaving tool marks visible. YMMV
And yet, to play Devil's advocate, most woodworkers would agree that the finest, most glass-like finish possible comes from french polishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chase
What is the french polish method if not abrasion? (pumice) It makes you think ....
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Anyway, I don't have a horse in this race. I use planes most of the time, for two simple reasons:
1: I like hand planes. They're so cute. :)
2: I hate sawdust. - And that's the main reason I would recommend any power-tool user to consider hand planes. It's much better for your lungs.
Hi MarkQuote:
Originally Posted by mark weathersbee
I posted something on this recently in my chest build.
Here is a surface hand sanded with Abranet on a Mirka handsander (not a machine) through grits 120/22/400, and then I began using a finely set card scraper. You can see the difference in the surface.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...l_7f541cdc.jpg
A smoother should take that up another notch in clarity/transparency.
In this case, the sander was used to refine a curved surface (bow drawer face with highly interlocked grain). I generally use a smoother.
Regards from Perth
Derek