Heavy Metal. Oliver Questions?

I am looking for some info folks on some Oliver machines. Please excuse the ignorance in advance, as I really am not familiar with the Oliver machines.

First question. A friend has an Oliver Model 285T shaper with an 1 1/8" spindle(?). He wants to convert it to 1 1/4" . He has called Oliver and the price for this new spindle is steep, over $1K.
What parts/components are really being changed? Is there another place to get one? or Can one be manufactured, for less?

Second question. I have an option to buy an Oliver 260D sliding tablesaw with all of the parts. Miters, slider, fence etc.. It's a little bit dirty, and needs cleaned up, but otherwise appears fine.
What should I be looking at when I objectively evaluate this machine? what are the weak points to look out for? What pitfalls are associated with an Oliver, ie unique blades or something like that? What is an insulting offer? and what is acceptable?

TIA.

Mike....try here - this is a very good place to talk about and ask questions about "Oliver" machinery.

http://discussion.oldwwmachines.com/default.asp

A new spindle for that machine would easily be $1k. As Rod pointed out I'd ask the question about that spindle on the owwn list. It's most likely a solid spindle and 1 1/8 is an odd size these days. What you'd need is a bushing that would allow you to use 1 1/4" cutters with it. I haven't seen any going from 1.125 to 1.250, but any machine shot should be able to make you one.

A 260D is an assume machine and heavy as hell, 2200#'s I think. I believe it can take 16" blades with at least a 1" arbor. Check those things since they won't be off the shelf blades at the home center, but you can get them from any blade mfg easily. Depending on the type of work you do you can put a really fine blade on one arbor and a fast cutting one on the other arbor. Or, dado on one and combo on the other.

Check the voltages on the motors. There are two unless is this an old belt drive. I know someone that bought a 260d and the motors were only 440 volts. He's using a transformer to boost this 3ph 220.

That's a highly sought after saw.

How much? Depends on the condition and the above mentioned. If the motors are only 440 that's a real limiting factor.

Check here for prices people are asking.
http://www.oliverusedmachinery.com/TableSaws/index.html

Start low and see what he says, but with all assessories $2k - $3k isn't out of the question.

That is the saw that Wendell Castle uses, I am told. My used tool dealer sells them for about $3500 in good working condition. I thought they were all 2 motor units, but learned something today. Great froum. I have been told that usually one arbor is set for cross cut, and one for rip, so no blade changes are needed.

I think your right. I was looking through the archives and didn't see one. I think I was remembering a different older Oliver that had dual blades and belt drive.

I'm lusting after a simliar saw, the Greenlee 495S. I need something to match my Greenlee 227 mortier.

http://owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1593

hey mike
I actually own an oliver 260D. Really cool machines. I have just rebuilt / gone through the one I recently bought. It had a repair that required me to make some adjustments to it to bring it back to perfect alignment. Now that I have gone thorugh it and cleaned all the years of gunk off it it and made a few adjustment it runs great. These machines are direct drive, so there is, or should be, no vibration to speak of. They do have 2 motors as others have said. They have a sliding table which is very nice. They do have a 1" arbor ( although I believe oliver would do specials). You can put smaller blades on them if you want though. As far as voltages, they are going to be 3 phase. From my experience many were in the 230 volt range but some did come through with 460 volts. I think the reason that they were not dual voltage like a lot of motors are is the slip ring setup and the way the wires are routed out of the motor directly to the slip ring set up.

You need to check all the obvious things as with any machine. You may find that there has been some repair during its life. Many times the repair is decent and really won't effect the machine at all. One thing to ask is the serial #. from that you will be able to date the machine.

You want to check the slip ring on the machine. The 260D has 2 motors for 2 seperate cutting blades. The way the blades are raised and lowered is by rotating the motors on a turret. One motor goes up while the other motor goes down. The power is transmitted to the motors via a slip ring. Sometimes these get burned up.

As far as price goes, as others have said, you should expect to pay at least 2000 to 7000 depending on the condition and the age as well as what comes with the machine. There have been examples where these machines go for less than 2 grand, but most folks know the value of them and they are very collectable. The top on the 260D is the finest surface you will ever see. These folks spared no expense in surfacing the top.

I have bought lots of used machines and most of the time there is something wrong with them, but most of the time you can fix them and be very happy at the end. The 260D is a beast though, but smaller than my rt-40.

best wishes

lou

Mike...
You should goto www.owwm.com and navigate over to the oliver section and then push the button to view all documents uploaded. Filter through the dozens of catalogs and find the ones for the table saws and in particular the 260. These are PDF files of the actual sales docs used by oliver for the better part of the last century. The www.owwm.com site is a massive treasure trove of information.

In short, I own an oliver 88-DM. Mine was made in 1968 and I consider the 88 to be one of the best table saws ever made. Ever! Even with my martin leanings, I still own and have my 88 and its not for sale!

I have posted and told many folks many times that I think the 260 is an excellent saw, I still feel the 88 was and is better. This is a personal preference and you may like the 260 better.

You can if you wish buy a brand new oliver 88 today. It will be made by Eagle Machinery Co in Grand Rapids, MI using the same patterns and machine tools and in the same building as all the other 88s ever made. But be prepared to wait several months and be prepared to pay about $30,000 dollars. So used is the better option.

Many parts used on the 260 and the 88 were interchangeable. But the main difference was in the motors. The 88 uses a traditional trunion design whereas the 260 has dual motors on a turret.

You will find it generally easier to get a 260 than an 88. I dont why. One of my theories is that the government bought many of these saws and the purchasing dude simply said "give me the best". The 260 was the most expensive of the saws made and the government bought a bunch of them thinking that more money equates to more machine. In some ways, they were right. You get an extra motor and the turret assembly. Also, 260 saws were very often equiped with the F fence in liue of the E fence. The F fence was the better fence and my 88 was sold with an E fence.

Another theory has it that the 88 is considered the better saw for cabinet shop use. So these sell immediately and never wind up back on the used market. Whatever the reason, I have found it easier of late to find 260 saws than 88 saws. I have not come accross a late model 88 for sale for some time. I have seen some older 88s with the older body style.

In either case, both saws are highly regarded. You will have to to some rework and cleaning on most saws as you will on most any saw that is 30 or more years old. But once dialed in, these are sweet saws. And given their massive weight and large table size, its cake to shove 4x8 sheets through these saws. No Problem.

Other makes to consider would be Greenlee as well as Tannewitz and Beech. These saws often sell for much less than the olivers because oliver has a type of cult following. They are more or less just as good and some tannewitz owners also feel that the tannys are more accurate. I DONT KNOW if this is true, but I have seen many tannys in military pattern shops lending credence to the fact that they are at least as accurate as the olivers.

As to the 285 shaper. The 285 is a tiny shaper and is most often used for smaller cutter heads. The 1 1/8 inch spindle is odd but replacement can cost a small fortune. I do this work as well; however, I am booked solid for quite some time so I cannot touch it for now. One thing to consider would be to use standard bushings and T - bushsings along with 1 1/4 inch heads. Right now, I own a couple of heads that are 1 1/4 inch and my hofmann uses a 30 mm spindle. So I am using these bushings to adapt my old US heads to this european standard. No Problem.

Hope this helps...

I had perused the OWWM site for a bit, so much info it was easy to get lost in the part numbers, models, and years. To the new, or uniformed it really started to all run together. Some of those guys are seriously talented. I don't know if they actually use their machines, or just enjoy the resto' aspect. Doesn't matter to me at all. I can appreciate the talent, and time that went in to restoring those machines.

I like the idea of an Oliver 260D,and I definitely respect the fact that both Lou and Dev regard these machines highly, as do many others. Gives me a little more confidence.

The only sticking point for me would be that the saw may sit for awhile. A machine this size would require me to completely rewire my garage from the sub panel in, and get a hold of a rotary phase converter to actually run it. One of those "how much will it actually cost before I can turn it on" decisions.

I'll pass on the info about the shaper. He can do with it, what he will. Thank you.

In one way I agree with dev about the 88 being a better saw. It is less complicated than the 260d. I am sure it has the same great finish that the 260 has on the top. As he has said, the 88s just don't come up for sale at all. there was one in CA on ebay about 4 weeks ago with the asking price of ~ 5000 plus shipping ( 2500 lbs cost some $$ to ship, unless you find some back hauler deal that every one talks about, except when you really press them for names and phone #, and then there is usually the umm and arring going on ).

One of my pet peaves for many of the new machines that are out there is that most are blanchard ground and it takes some getting use to if you have had a lot of older machines that have true cold planed tops. Even the mighty nice felder 700 series has what looks like blanchard ground tops, the 900 series looks more like a cold planed top and the knapp does actually have cold planing as far as I know. My newman 60 and the Moak 36" are real sweet machines, but after seeing the finish on the oliver I see why folks like these machines.

There is a down side to them as well. They are pretty massive and running a 16" blade takes some getting use to. You can run smaller blades in the 12" range, which is what I run on my rt-40 now. I have been in touch with a few folks who definitly use their 260d all the time and just don't look at them. keep us posted on what you end up doing.

lou