need help sharpening/fine tuning h&r

I've been making a half set of hollow and rounds and I'm starting to get the hang of it but the problem is I have never used a moulding plane except the ones I made myself. I don't know how there supposed to perform.
I have them cutting well, the problem is that they keep cutting, I'm thought that they are supposed to stop when full profile is reached. I know that the corners of the iron are responsable for this and Tod herrili recomds that the blades die. Of at the corners but it seems Luke you would want those corners for working next to other profiles. I guess my question is should I die of the cornners?

It's your choice. If you want them to be able to cut deep for some reason, you can leave the corners at the same profile level as everything else, but you'll see some tutorials (that imply that's an OK method) that tell you to be judicious about your last few cuts and stop a cut short or the corners will cut into your moulding.

Just make sure that you remember how you set up the plane when you do your work.

I leave them short enough that in a fine cut, they're not digging, and in a heavy cut they are.

A skilled person who cuts mouldings each day might prefer to leave them proud because they'll know exactly when to stop the cut.

My experience is that while a lot of dedicated-profile molding planes are "stopped" and will not cut once the profile is at full depth, hollows and rounds do not generally have this feature. This gives them their versatility which is really the point of them. If you make the corners of the blade die into the profile they will of course only cut to a certain depth, if you hold them very carefully at the same spring angle. However, since they have no wide fence or stop surface, the edges of your plane's bed profile will really take a beating if you habitually use them like this.

What John said.

Some moulding planes are designed to cut a specific moulding and have stops that will end cutting at the right time. Ovolo, ogee and complex moulding planes often are like this.

Hollows and rounds are not designed for specific mouldings. They are 60 degree arcs. If you want a bland moulding that is made up of 60 degree arcs, then you may have the iron cut the same depth all the way across. If you want stylish 18th century mouldings you need to have the iron feather to nothing at the edges. This allows you to cut arcs that are 70, 80, 90 degrees, or whatever. It also allows you to cut curves that are not a constant radius for more style. It allows you to adjust the moulding for visual appeal (cut in one area more than another). And it allows you to make crisp and clean mouldings that don't need sanding.

Buy Matt Bickford's excellent book.

In the course I took with him, he often had a cardboard profile
to check his progress. I found the process frustrating,
as I would have an uneven depth along the length of a given molding.

I was assured that this is a matter of practice, for which there is no substitute.

I recommend scoring some gauge lines on the front of any molding you make.
That way, when you get close to your desired profile depth, at least the front face will be even.

We were coached to take medium shavings, and look at the width of the shaving coming off.
That was the best indication that you had established a given arc.

Yeah I have matt bickfords book and found it quite informative for making mouldings. I'm still building the planes. Like I said I have no frame of reference when building these planes. I have Larry Williams DVD and follow this closest. I also have Todd herllis DVD and he's the one who recommends dying of the blades.
Thanks for the help guys. I think what I'm hearing is its personal preference as to iron shape but perhaps tapered off corners might be more usefull.
I'm also curious as to whether or not the iron is supposed to move when you tap the wedge home. Some of my plans do this more then others is this a wedge fit problem? And one last question. My planes work perfectly fine in softer wood like poplar but on cherry I get a lot of tear out. I'll admit that the mouths are not as tight as they could be but is this the only cause? Could bedding the iron better help? They are bedded at 55 degrees which seems high enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronald mccormack

My planes work perfectly fine in softer wood like poplar but on cherry I get a lot of tear out.

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The stock used in our course work was specifically chosen for the straight grain.
The presumption was that anything we made would be painted or stained.

Anything with an undulating, curled or figured pattern would be near impossible to plane with these,
as you're dealing with a very small point of contact, without any shearing.

These are highly specialized, to the point that I stopped at a few hollows and round pairs, just for rule joints.

I suspect that the moldings we see in period pieces were made by specialists.
As you have alluded, there's a feel for these unfenced planes that can only be learned.

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In the course, it was mentioned that the untapered irons would move out slightly,
as the wedge was driven home. What you're describing is not unusual.

I suspect that the finer H&R planes flex appreciably when the wedge is tight.
This can lead to a "belly" in the cutting shape, like a shallow crescent.

This would explain why so many of my efforts were thicker on the ends.

We used only H&R planes, no complicated profiles - so the only way to get a sharp
corner was to use a Rabbet or Snipe's bill. The Rabbet was used most heavily.

Any corners cut by an H&R profile indicated a layout error, corrected with the Rabbet plane.

Lastly - emphasis for getting the irons sharp was placed on stropping the BACK
of the iron, and leaving the bevel alone. MB honed those, himself.

On straight, soft Poplar, an edge would last for hours if the back was stropped.

Hi Ronald,

Dedicated, or "complex", moulding planes come with integral fences and depth stops. So they do quit cutting when they've reached their full profile. Hollows and rounds differ in this regard, as you've discovered. At least as long as the extremities of the cutting edge of the irons don't die into the sole of the plane. And, of course, there is no harm with your experimenting with that if you'd like.

Our feeling is that it is helpful to have the profile of the cutting edge match the profile of the sole of the plane as closely as practicable. And we work hard to keep the iron full-width of the dimension of the sole for the same reason. We feel that this helps enable the plane to work as close as possible to the limits of any moulding arc being formed. Inflection points of reverse curve/arc moldings, such as ogees, can be particularly troublesome in this regard. There isn't much in the historic literature, that I've found so far, so that isn't a great deal of help. The one minor exception is David Denning's _Art and Craft of Cabinet-Making_. My copy is undated, but I believe it was first published in the 1880's or 90's. In brief, while discussing Hollows and Rounds, he states: " ... In grinding and sharpening the irons great care must be taken to preserve the sweep, and not to alter it from that of the sole. To sharpen the hollows rounded slips of stone are required."

The extremities of the cutting edges, especially of the hollow plane irons, can sometimes cause problems when sharpened in this manner. But this can typically be minimized with a little thought and care. Careful layout can be useful, while another strategy is to back off the iron for a lighter cut as one approaches the final profile.

I'm attaching a photo of our "sample moldings" which we produced several years ago and have hauled around with us. No special care was taken, as they were never intended for use on a piece of furniture, and they do show a bit of wear-and-tear. But, they were done with irons sharpened as I've briefly described, and I think you will find them reasonably suitable. Also, note they include at least a couple of moldings with arcs of approximately 90 degrees - arcs which have been implied as impossible to create with planes sharpened in this manner. Also, there are a couple which consist of arcs of two different radii, created with the same planes. Finally, parenthetically, pattern and design books of the 18th century include moulding examples with both ca. 60 degree and 90 degree arcs, so I find it difficult to think of one or the other as more authentically 18th century on that basis alone.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

Thank you so much for your reply don, I have both your DVDs and think they're wonderfully. What hing your videos inspired me to begin making moulding planes and mouldings using these planes.
Its sounds to me your recommending I keep the corner on my irons. Obviously it works both ways but my intentions with my planes are to be able to make a wide variety of profiles with reversing arcs. This is best accomplished with corners on the irons?

Don. I don't know whether you are trying to refute my arguments or to offer support to them. While some of the mouldings you show have nearly 90 degrees of arc, they all appear to have been sanded to remove tool marks. The sanding also removes the crispness and clarity of the mouldings.

Well, Warren, those mouldings have never been sanded. Aside from wear-and-tear from being hauled around and handled by any number of people, they are just as they came from the hollows and rounds. As I said previously, since they were never intended to be installed on a piece of furniture, no special care was taken in producing them. In fact, if one looks closely, I didn't even fully clean up one of the sinkings (vertical fillets) of one of the mouldings. Though, as an aside, the dogmatic aversion to sanding commonly seen today is a somewhat recent conceit, mostly fueled, it seems, by folks who view planes primarily (solely?) as a substitute for sanding. Or as a substitute for some machine or another. Eighteenth century woodworkers who understood and used the full "system" of woodworking planes to undertake every stage of their woodworking would likely be scratching their heads over this stance.

And, now to try and answer Ronald's question. Yes, my preference is to have the profile of the cutting edge follow the profile of the plane's sole as closely as possible across it's entire width. This is based on my own personal experience as well as working with a good number of students while we were teaching. In general, it has been demonstrated to me that the more closely the two profiles match, the more options and control one has over how heavy a shaving can be taken as well as over where material is being removed, &c. Understanding the importance of this was one of the more difficult things to get across to students - until they actually began using their planes. This was particularly true if they stayed for the weekend workshop and were using their own planes to produce mouldings of a specified profile. In other words, try things for yourself, as thoughtful experience is your best teacher. My feeling is that whichever way you decide to go, you will have more control over the final results if you've learned what to look for and achieve while trying to match the profiles as closely as possible.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR