Full Kerf Woodworker II Requires Stabilizer

At the Baltimore (Timonium) woodworking show earlier this month, the person representing Forrest blades told me and other people watching "don't use my blade without the stabilizer". He was talking about the full kerf blade (I double-checked with him). He was pretty adamant about it, saying if you don't use the stabilizer, then use a different blade.

I have only bothered to use the stabilizer with thin-kerf blades.

Is anyone here using a standard kerf WWII or similar with a stabilizer? Is it worth the loss in capacity (more of an issue with this phenolic insert than it was with the original metal one)

As an aside, the new version of the Woodworker II has flat teeth spaced among the other teeth, so it will give you a nicer flat-bottomed cut.

Pete

I use all Forrest blades, full kerf, and have never run into the need for a stablilizer. Not sure why they insist that you use one.

They are most likely trying to cover themselves by insisting you use the stablizer on there blades incase one flexes and someone gets hurt. Then they case say we tell everyone not to use our blade without the stabilizer.

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Originally Posted by Byron Trantham

Not sure why they insist that you use one.

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One word: money.

My respect for Forrest drops 50% because of their insisting on stabilizer even for their full-kerf blades.

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Originally Posted by Hoa Dinh

One word: money.

My respect for Forrest drops 50% because of their insisting on stabilizer even for their full-kerf blades.

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I agree. I have never seen a test that showed any benefit to a stabilizer. It's just more money in their pocket.

Why would a firm who claims to make the best, insist that it's only the best if you use a stabilizer. If that's true, buy some other manufacturer's product who makes a blade that does not need a stabilizer.

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Originally Posted by Hoa Dinh

One word: money.

My respect for Forrest drops 50% because of their insisting on stabilizer even for their full-kerf blades.

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So you've run across this too? I wasn't sure if it was just this one guy, or if it really was their corporate policy.

Pete

While I'm sure there is a profit motive at work here, for someone spending $100 on a blade, what's another $15 if there's a chance that using a stabilizer will give you a better cut......

Theoretically, it's more right than wrong to use a stabilizer. It's also more profitable when you buy than when you don't. :D It's a low tech, not so low priced money maker.

I've never noticed a difference even on a good TK...can't imagine needing one for the full kerf. It's also cuts into your max height capacity.

I think this guy might be representing his bank account and not Forest. Lots of resellers out their
Have you checked with their CS??
I'm having trouble believing it.
TJH

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Originally Posted by Hoa Dinh

One word: money.

My respect for Forrest drops 50% because of their insisting on stabilizer even for their full-kerf blades.

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Guys,

This completely contradicts my experience with both Forrest and their blades. This salesman was trying to bamboozle the audience, or he was ignorant. The salesmen I've seen at shows didn't work for Forrest anyhow, but resellers.

In fact, I tried to order a stabilizer with my WWII, and Forrest wouldn't sell it to me. They said that stabilizers are only beneficial with lower-end saws that have arbor runout or flexible trunnions. For any cabinet saw, you don't need a stabilizer. If you have a contractor's saw, then maybe it would help. My full-kerf 12" WWII, as well as my Duraline and Chopmaster all gave remarkable cuts, without stabilizers.

Todd

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Originally Posted by Pete Brown

...the person representing Forrest blades told me and other people watching "don't use my blade without the stabilizer"...Pete

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Interesting. Reminds me of the old joke: Question - Do you know how to tell if a salesman is lying? Answer - If his lips are moving!!!

I just looked at the information on stabilizers on the Forrest web site. While it does recommend using stabilizers for several reasons, it says nothing about a stabilizer being a requirement.

I have used a Forrest WWII for several years both with and without a stabilizer. Personally, I see no difference in the way the blade cuts, so I now use the blade without the stabilizer.

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Originally Posted by Tyler Howell

I think this guy might be representing his bank account and not Forest....

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I don't care. To me he was Forrest.

If Forrest can't train their representatives, my respect for Forrest drop 50% too.

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Originally Posted by Hoa Dinh

I don't care. To me he was Forrest.

If Forrest can't train their representatives, my respect for Forrest drop 50% too.

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Don't be too hard on Forrest. As someone who had to work with reps (in semiconductors) it's hard to keep those people in line. Just because you train them doesn't mean that they remember it all, or that they won't make up their own stories if they can make money from the stories. And some of the stories I heard reps tell were real whoppers. They don't work for Forrest and Forrest has little control over them. The only control is to threaten to pull the product from them but that's a real last resort.

Just be aware that the person is a rep and don't take everything they say as gospel.

Mike

I have used the Forrest 5" stabilizer with Forrest and other brand thin-kerf and full-kerf blades on a Bosch 4000, a Ridgid 3612, and a Jet cabinet saw. I never have noticed any difference in the quality of the cuts, and I don't like the loss of cut depth I get with the stabilizer. I really don't know why Forrest markets their stabilizers. They make great blades that work just fine without them.

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Originally Posted by Mike Henderson

Don't be too hard on Forrest. As someone who had to work with reps (in semiconductors) it's hard to keep those people in line.

Just be aware that the person is a rep and don't take everything they say as gospel.

Mike

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Thanks Mike, good point.

Now that a bunch of people have piled on complaining about Forrest, does anyone realize that nowhere in this thread do we even know for certain that this is Forrest's policy? All we have is a question from one person, someone new to the forum, that a sales guy that may or may not work for Forrest might have said stabilizers are required. Ease up a little until you have all the facts. It would be a shame if peoples respect dropped 50% for jumping to conclusions.

Edit - Quite right Dave, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Tom Jones III

...does anyone realize that nowhere in this thread do we even know for certain that this is Forrest's policy?..

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Tom - Please read my post, above. On the Forrest web site there is no mention of the stabilizer being a requirement.

http://forrest.woodmall.com/damstif.html

I actually have not used the stabilizer for my full kerf Forrest blades in a few years with no ill effects. There is no harm in using them, however, and it theoretically will make the disk run truer under load.

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Originally Posted by Mike Henderson

Don't be too hard on Forrest. As someone who had to work with reps (in semiconductors) it's hard to keep those people in line. Just because you train them doesn't mean that they remember it all, or that they won't make up their own stories if they can make money from the stories. And some of the stories I heard reps tell were real whoppers. They don't work for Forrest and Forrest has little control over them. The only control is to threaten to pull the product from them but that's a real last resort.

Just be aware that the person is a rep and don't take everything they say as gospel.

Mike

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What Mike said. That guy is a dealer and not a Forrest factory person. I heard him telling customer about the "new" WWII that is apparently just a version with raker that's been out for a while.

And um Mike, I used to be one of the semiconductor reps selling switch fabrics. What are you saying? Everything I said was true ;)

Can you spell 'moron'? That guy qualifies for sure. It's all balderdash and as other have alluded to: it's all about money. I've been using a regular kerf and occassionally a thin-kerf blade practically forever. Never had an issue that required a stablilzer.

When I picked up my WWII at the Columbus show they tried to get me to buy one for $26. I didn't see a need for one and I still don't. If they blade is that flimsy then you shouldn't be using it at all.....

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Originally Posted by Bryan Rocker

When I picked up my WWII at the Columbus show they tried to get me to buy one for $26. I didn't see a need for one and I still don't. If they blade is that flimsy then you shouldn't be using it at all.....

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Same story here when we bought one at a show for a friend....he definitely thought we should have a stabilizer for it....we didn't agree. I suppose when they push the stabilizer, we should all be asking the "rep" if the Forrest has a deflection problem... :rolleyes: :D

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Originally Posted by Tom Jones III

.....All we have is a question from one person, someone new to the forum,

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What does that have to do with anything? Does one have to have a certain number of posts under their belt before their posts are taken seriously? Personally, I think the OP's remarks expressed a very legitimate concern about what that "rep" was insisting is a Forrest policy. I see no foul in calling Forrest on this claim.

This has been suggested at each WW show I have been but the rep is not from Forrest. These are wholesalers aor dist. reps that are selling the product and for what a stabilzer cost them and they sell it for adds about 18.00 profit to each sale. I have and only would use a stabilizer with TK blade.

I purcased the LV 5" stabilisers many years ago, and use them on a full or TK kerf. What's the harm? One half of the stabiliser is already on the arbour, why take it off depending on the type of blade you are using.

To pile on, I have one and never use it. Also, as has been said before, Forrest sells through reps. They do not do the shows themselves and I think that they may do themselves injustice buy this. I do have a stabilizer that I bought about 10 years ago when I bought my first blade a thin kerf. I used it off and on, mostly off and found that it just took up space and added nothing.

A couple of years ago, I had several discussions with someone at Forrest about bulk purchasing some blades for our guild. His price for say $2,000 worth of blades was more than most on line sites. His comment was, "we can't control what our dealers do or charge."

And now my push for the "other guy", John at Ridge Carbide does do the shows and he does own the company and he does sell you the blades his company makes and he is up front with you, so.......

And they are GOOD!!!!

CPeter

Strange. I don't use the stablizers even on thin kerf blades.
[I don't own any Forest Products]

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Originally Posted by Brian Gumpper

What Mike said. That guy is a dealer and not a Forrest factory person. I heard him telling customer about the "new" WWII that is apparently just a version with raker that's been out for a while.

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Interesting. He definitely told me and the others there that was the new replacement WW II. In fact, he had a sign that said something like "ask me about the new woodworker II". I guess I was bamboozled! I didn't buy one, though :)

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Originally Posted by CPeter James

And now my push for the "other guy", John at Ridge Carbide does do the shows and he does own the company and he does sell you the blades his company makes and he is up front with you, so.......

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I have the Ridge Carbide dado set. It's pretty nice.

I purchased the WW II a year or two back instead of the RC blade based primarily on reviews in the magazines. The WW II always came in top.

How's the RC compare? They look like a beefier blade.

Pete

Pete, on the page I'm going to link to, scroll down to the bottom to the "custom" grinds section to see the various formats you can get the 10" blade in...I own the 20T WW-II rip blade to compliment my standard 40T WW-II blades. The #6 grind sounds like the one the fellow at the show was breathing heavy about...and it's been available for a couple years now "stock". Further, Forrest will grind/sharpen them in almost any format a customer wants as well as re-bore, etc, when there is a saw arbor size change from a "new tool purchase".

http://www.forrestsawblades.com/woodworker_2.htm

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Originally Posted by Jim Becker

Pete, on the page I'm going to link to, scroll down to the bottom to the "custom" grinds section...

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Thanks. Looking at that, I realize I have seen it before. It just didn't register.

I'm going to email Forrest and let them know how their reps have been behaving.

Pete

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Originally Posted by Pete Brown

I have the Ridge Carbide dado set. It's pretty nice.
How's the RC compare? They look like a beefier blade.

Pete

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The plates are the same thickness. We measured some just the other day. I think the carbide tips on the RC are heavier and the grind is different.

CPeter

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Originally Posted by Pete Brown

I have the Ridge Carbide dado set. It's pretty nice.

I purchased the WW II a year or two back instead of the RC blade based primarily on reviews in the magazines. The WW II always came in top.

How's the RC compare? They look like a beefier blade.

Pete

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The RC's carbide is notably thicker...as in 30-40%. The rest of the blade and geometry are very similar to the WWII #6 grind, except that AFAIK the RC is honed to a finer grit. The cuts are head to tell apart IME.

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Originally Posted by Pete Brown

Thanks. Looking at that, I realize I have seen it before. It just didn't register.

I'm going to email Forrest and let them know how their reps have been behaving.

Pete

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Look at your sales receipt and see if it says Forrest Manufacturing Co, or something else. Snake oil salesmen are alive and doing well. By toughting the # 6 grind as a NEW STYLE OF BLADE, many owners of the old style WWII's will fork over cash (credit card) to have NEW STYLE of blade. Seems the Forrest #6 grind is trying to duplicate what the Freud LU 84 already does.

I bought a second WW2 for my TS this fall at a WC event at the local WC store. Thought it would be nice to have two, one on the saw and a spare or out being sharpened. I use the full kerf blade. The Forrest rep said the reason they recommend the stabilizer is a modest improvement in performance but alluded the main reason is they don't want you ripping more than 2" thick stock and the stabilizer limits rip capacity. A check of the materials included with the blade confirm Forrest recommends not ripping over 2" stock.

I have a 3" dewalt stabilizer that I use, figure it can't hurt, but doubt it really makes any difference.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Wrenn

...Seems the Forrest #6 grind is trying to duplicate what the Freud LU 84 already does.

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The #6 grind is closer to the Ridge Carbide TS2000 than the LU84. The tooth count, hook angle, and geometry are very similar. The LU84 is a classic 50T ATB/R combination blade with 10 degree hook, and 10 groupings of 4 ATB teeth and a flat raker with a large gullet between each grouping. The WWII and TS2000 are 40 toofers with a 20 degree hook and similarly ground teeth.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Wrenn

Look at your sales receipt and see if it says Forrest Manufacturing Co, or something else. Snake oil salesmen are alive and doing well. By toughting the # 6 grind as a NEW STYLE OF BLADE, many owners of the old style WWII's will fork over cash (credit card) to have NEW STYLE of blade. Seems the Forrest #6 grind is trying to duplicate what the Freud LU 84 already does.

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I didn't purchase anything from him :) . He was representing FOrrest, but I know he worked for another company; I just don't recall which.

Pete

I suppose ya can't hang Forrest in all fairness, but it does bring up a good point, and that's ya can't believe everyone ya talk to...unfortunately.

Caution would dictate that you get at least a second opinion on any question you might have, that unfortnately being a royal pita.

Not sure if Forrest can, or would do anything about this, but I'd send him a email and mention that I wasn't to happy with one of the sellers that was representing his product.

Buyer beware comes to mind here.
I'd be worried I'd get the wrong information a one of them $100 blades, and I can afford a $15 stabilizer mistake, not so on a $100 item.

Either way it doesn't bode well for Forrest to have reps giving out possible misinformation.
Just a thought.
Al

I have a full-kerf WWII blade and initially used it without a stabilizer. It worked as promised. I then installed a 3 inch dia. stabilizer and the cut improved a bit. The stabilizer is still on the saw.

As Forrest Gump said; "And that's all I have to say 'bout that".

I got one with my WWII a few yrs ago and have used the blade with it and without it. I don't see much of a difference. It may be a little quieter with it on but I'm not sure. I tend to keep it on since I don't think I've ever had to cut anything where I was limited by the stabilizer's reduction in blade height.