West Epoxy Kits, which to choose?

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05-05-2015, 11:09 AM
Andrew Ulsher

West Epoxy Kits, which to choose?

I'm looking at picking up some epoxy to help with filling knots, sealing feet on table legs, and anything else I could utilize epoxy on. Problem is I have no idea what I need outside of epoxy and hardener. What are the differences between the fillers and additives as well as the advantages/disadvantages of fast/slow/super slow/special hardeners?

Anyone willing to provide some education?

My first assumption is get the fast hardener to start and pickup the slow later but the special clear hardener seems better?

What do I need to know about fillers and additives?

Thanks!
05-05-2015, 11:31 AM
mike holden

I am afraid this is not a direct answer, but I would suggest you get the book "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction Wood and WEST System Materials" ISBN: 0-87812-166-8
Written by the developers of the WEST system (Wet Epoxy Saturation Technique) and the purveyors of WEST system epoxies the book is slanted toward boat building, but woodworking is woodworking.
Best information available, straight from the horse's mouth as it were.
05-05-2015, 11:39 AM
Mac McQuinn

Mike's info is excellent. Gougeon Brothers has a excellent reputation and I'm sure a call to their Tech line will answer all your questions. There's many different formulations and additives. I'm sure they can steer you down the correct path, Good lukc.
Mac
05-05-2015, 11:43 AM
Bill Adamsen

Andrew:

The user guides and manuals supplied by the manufacturer are pretty straightforward.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...12%20Part1.pdf

Remember, that many of the additives are really designed for boatbuilding and operational or structural uses, where they are unlikely to be seen, or will be covered with paint. Typically in furniture and cabinets we're not adding fillets, fairing, or forced to "coat" something upside down where dripping and sags are a consideration. For furniture I would think ... first off, I probably wouldn't use the stuff ... except to maybe to fill knots. Knots could be filled with just resin or an additive like graphite. Actually in most cases an additive is unnecessary. The holes are dark and look black filled with just straight epoxy. I have found that if you fill all the voids/holes with epoxy, then sand, then finish with either oil or epoxy coating, the result is just fine. But you may be more discriminating than I. One clarification ... this idea of epoxy saturating the wood ... not my experience. It is great stuff and flows into voids nicely, but if you cut a joint that has been glued with epoxy and look for penetration ... it just doesn't happen at the level you think it is going to.

I use the 105 resin and then the 205/206 and 207 (coating) and high-density filler (gaps and fillets) and then microlight or microballoons for fairing depending on a number of factors (paint color, size of faired area). But I don't think any of those have a place in furniture building with the possible exception of the high density fillers for either repairs or special bonding problems.
05-05-2015, 11:53 AM
Andrew Ulsher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Adamsen

Andrew:

The user guides and manuals supplied by the manufacturer are pretty straightforward.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...12%20Part1.pdf

Remember, that many of the additives are really designed for boatbuilding and operational or structural uses, where they are unlikely to be seen, or will be covered with paint. Typically in furniture and cabinets we're not adding fillets, fairing, or forced to "coat" something upside down where dripping and sags are a consideration. For furniture I would think ... first off, I probably wouldn't use the stuff ... except to maybe to fill knots. Knots could be filled with just resin or an additive like graphite. Actually in most cases an additive is unnecessary. The holes are dark and look black filled with just straight epoxy. I have found that if you fill all the voids/holes with epoxy, then sand, then finish with either oil or epoxy coating, the result is just fine. But you may be more discriminating than I. One clarification ... this idea of epoxy saturating the wood ... not my experience. It is great stuff and flows into voids nicely, but if you cut a joint that has been glued with epoxy and look for penetration ... it just doesn't happen at the level you think it is going to.

I use the 105 resin and then the 205/206 and 207 (coating) and high-density filler (gaps and fillets) and then microlight or microballoons for fairing depending on a number of factors (paint color, size of faired area). But I don't think any of those have a place in furniture building with the possible exception of the high density fillers for either repairs or special bonding problems.

What is your go to for filling knots? I was browsing the literature and as was stated by you and the previous posts West revolves around Boat building and other applications. I'm mainly concerned with sealing knots and feet on outdoor furniture.

My impression is I can get away with fast hardener and have no need for the fillers, same goes with sealing the feet on table/chair legs. Is this a safe assumption?
05-05-2015, 12:25 PM
Bill Adamsen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Ulsher

What is your go to for filling knots? I'm mainly concerned with sealing knots and feet on outdoor furniture. My impression is I can get away with fast hardener and have no need for the fillers, same goes with sealing the feet on table/chair legs. Is this a safe assumption?

It works for filling knots "if" the knot perimeter is level or can be made level, and you can prevent flowthrough. Unthickened epoxy has low viscosity and looks for cracks to follow gravity. Fast hardener should work fine. Mix only what you need. Be sure you can prepare the surface for finishing. The "sealing feet" part I'm not sure I understand. Test what you want to do before committing something on which you've invested considerable effort. Uncured epoxy is toxic.
05-05-2015, 3:04 PM
Andrew Ulsher

Sealing end grain would a better way to put it probably.
05-05-2015, 3:29 PM
John Lanciani

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Ulsher

My impression is I can get away with fast hardener and have no need for the fillers, same goes with sealing the feet on table/chair legs. Is this a safe assumption?

Fast hardener on a hot day can be a receipe for heartbreak.

I like to keep fast and slow hardeners -205 & 206 - on hand as well as a couple different fillers ( micro fibers-403, colloidal silica-406 phenolic microspheres-407, and wood flour) on hand so that I have options. I use epoxy as a problem solver, not my front line adhesive, so I like to have lots of options available.
05-05-2015, 4:57 PM
Andrew Ulsher

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Lanciani

Fast hardener on a hot day can be a receipe for heartbreak.

I like to keep fast and slow hardeners -205 & 206 - on hand as well as a couple different fillers ( micro fibers-403, colloidal silica-406 phenolic microspheres-407, and wood flour) on hand so that I have options. I use epoxy as a problem solver, not my front line adhesive, so I like to have lots of options available.

What are some examples of problem solving you use the different fillers and the slow/hardeners?

Also how hot of a day can cause problems. Here in Texas summer can be 95-105º easily.
05-05-2015, 6:10 PM
Bill Adamsen

Andrew ... sorry I didn't ask earlier ... with a 105° day, you likely would not get the "fast" epoxy mixed before it flashed off. I'm sure that West System literature shows cure curves.
05-05-2015, 7:59 PM
Mac McQuinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Ulsher

I'm looking at picking up some epoxy to help with filling knots, sealing feet on table legs, and anything else I could utilize epoxy on. Problem is I have no idea what I need outside of epoxy and hardener. What are the differences between the fillers and additives as well as the advantages/disadvantages of fast/slow/super slow/special hardeners?

Anyone willing to provide some education?

My first assumption is get the fast hardener to start and pickup the slow later but the special clear hardener seems better?

What do I need to know about fillers and additives?

Thanks!

Besides contacting "Gougeon Brothers" about the use of "West System" products, they have a magazine you can have sent to you on methods in which their products have been used. The online version is; http://epoxyworks.com/
It shows a multitude of different applications, not just for boat building.
Good luck, Mac
05-05-2015, 10:08 PM
barry holman

I started using West Systems 105 with the fast hardener in 2011. After a trip to Alaska I noticed the slide out floors on my RV were rotted. I replaced the floors and coated the exposed surface with the West Systems according to their literature. Worked great. Since then I have used it to fill knots, I add a dab of oil based artist color like burnt sienna to the mix to make it more like the color of the knot. Someone else in this thread indicated you do not need to add a colorant and I tend to agree especially for a small knot. I am working on my fourth maloof rocker and have exclusively used the system for all joints and laminations. Though messy I feel very confident in the strength of the joint but for me the best thing is that one does not see a glue line, even if the joint is not perfect.
05-06-2015, 6:46 AM
John Lanciani

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Ulsher

What are some examples of problem solving you use the different fillers and the slow/hardeners?

Also how hot of a day can cause problems. Here in Texas summer can be 95-105º easily.

Things like poorly fitting M&T joints, filling knots, structural or cosmetic repairs around the house, etc.

If I lived in Texas I don't think I'd even bother having fast hardener. If it is above 70 deg. or so here I generally use slow, below that is when I use fast. I keep small bottles of 5 minute (system 3 branded I think) epoxy around for quick repairs.