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I was looking for a good polishing waterstone for my chisels and plane irons. I was looking at perhaps a 8000 grit King, but I was also looking at the DMT Dia-Sharp Extra-Extra Fine 8000 mesh. How would the DMT compare to a waterstone? I like the fact that the price is comparable and (if I understand correctly) the diamond stone will last longer.
Does anyone here have that particular stone???
I've got an 8000 grit King, and I can't say as if I like it much. In my opinion, it's just way too small. I'd much rather have one of the full-sized high grit stones.
I got a 3000 grit diamond DMT stone for the toolmaker's shop. It was difficult to tell if it had diamonds on it!! They were microscopic,of course. Imagine wet or dry paper many times finer than the usual 600 grit you can buy. So,be careful what you buy. I'd recommend a regular 8000 grit stone if you want 1 that fine. The regular stone will just give you a more satisfactory "feeling" when you use it. I hope this makes sense. I like to have some "feedback" from the hone I'm using.
I find my white ceramic(about 1200 grit) to give a polished edge. A little stropping beyond that yields a razor sharp edge.
I had a 600 grit diasharp, I used in place of a 1k stone for a while. I didn't like it. Yes, it is lower maintenance then a water stone, but I don't think it lasts longer and I also didn't like the feel (like George). The diasharps wear in quite quickly and slow down a fair bit - I guess this may not be an issue for very fine stone, but again I was disappointed in mine... YMMV.
I ended up giving it away. I'm not sure what your price range is, but last I just checked on amazon and the 8" extra extra fine runs about $75. There are better stones for that price and if you are able to increase you price range to about $100 there are a bunch of really good fine water stones you can get that are IMHO better.
Personally I would buy any of the following $75-$100 water stones (some of which I've tried others I haven't) before I bought the king or diasharp:
Shapton Pro 8k or above, Naniwa Super Stone 8k or above, Kitayama 8k, Naniwa Snow White 8k (own it, love it), Imanishi 8k, Sigma Power 6k (own it, love it), Arishyama 6k.... I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of too.
There are also other finer stones for sometimes a little or sometimes a lot more money, but my guess is that any of those I listed will get your blades sharp and polished enough for 90-99% or your work, and for the other 1%-10% (or if you just always like to have the sharpest edge possible) you can easily follow any of those stones with some type of strop/compound.
I agree with Adam on the stone size being a consideration.
My King is a 4000. It is a bit narrow for my wider plane blades.
My 8000 is a Norton. Probably a middle of the road stone.
It may be a few years away, but if I buy another stone I will likely contact Schtoo at http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/
He did a test on stones a year or more ago that gave some good information about different makers of stones.
Back to my stones, there is a big difference between my King 4000 and Norton 8000 water stones. The King feels like a harder stone. Sometimes it needs a little rubbing with another stone to get up some grit when I am in a hurry. It leaves a nice surface on my blades. At one time it was my finish stone. The Norton 8000 seems a bit softer and the grit gets into action quickly. It used to be that a blade off of the 4000 stone seemed good enough. The difference off of the 8000 has me lusting for something finer. Currently stropping after honing has satisfied the lust.
I also have three diamond stones. One of them, super fine 1"X4" has been glued to a block of wood and is used exclusively on the kitchen knives. The others mostly remain in a drawer. One because it is worn a bit from about 15-20 years of use it isn't a DMT, it was purchased at a sporting goods store. There is also a coarse stone that sits in a drawer. Sometimes it is used like a file. IMO, it was a waste of money
jtk
It bears noting that as folks mention different stones of the same grit rating those stone are not necessarily the same level of fineness. Nortons and Kings for example are rated on an older system. IIRC (and please correct me I'm wrong Dave, Stu, or others) the Norton and King 8k's are equal in coarseness/fineness to many 5kish stones and have a larger micron size then not only the other 8k stones I mentioned but also the 6ks.
You have to know HOW to use a diamond stone in order to make it last. We had one of the very first ones to come out at work. It was solid plastic,not the hollow base ones you see these days. It must have been at least 25 years old,and I was still using it when I retired.
What you must do is not bear down hard,as it will tear the diamonds out of the matrix,and diamonds are terribly brittle,which is another reason to not bear down. Use water with a little detergent as a lubricant,too.
Yeah, it wasn't so much that mine wore out, but I got annoyed that I felt like I had to baby it. I don't generally bear down on my stones (other than coarse water stones), but every time I worked a back on my diasharp I was always worried I would wear it out. I may have been over thinking it, but what I will say is that even being careful as you described I noticed that it lost its initial cutting power almost right away, particularly in the center. It still cut. Looking back now, my guess the initial bite is something that's always temporary and that it would have plateaued and continued to work quite a while, but that initial change made me kinda parnoid. Still the DMTs just weren't my thing, there are no doubt a number of people who like them just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by george wilson
I belive the king 8000 and the kitayamas and other such stones are probably around 3 micron. I think the norton 8k might be a little less fine than that. I always liked the finish off of a king 8k, and they cut fairly fast. I've never used the reduced size stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Griggs
I like the kitayama OK, too, but it likes to work better after a soak.
I could really use any of them. It wasn't until I started honing razors that I got a good idea about slurry or no slurry on stones, and why some cut faster than others when they are advertised to be similar fineness (i.e., a king 8k or a kitayama will cut super fast with a pasty slurry of itself on the surface, but will create an edge about as fine as anything if it's allowed to dry). If you take the time to learn how a particular stone will cut fast or not cut fast, then speed really boils down to the fineness of the abrasive.
Based on your testimonial regarding the snow white 8K, if I were buying only one 8k stone and I had none, I'd probably track one down and use it.
As to the original question, I don't like the way diamonds cut for a finish stone (including the 3 micron diamond stones). Alumina/alundum type stones cut plenty deep and fast with a fresh surface, and they don't leave an edge as ragged.
The only fine stone I have of stu's offerings is the 13k, and it is undoubtedly a very fine stone. I can't vouch for any of the 8k level offerings, but wouldn't be surprised if the 6k was very similar to a norton 8k in fineness.
I haven't been in the shop for a while, so I'm fixing to toot off about how nobody needs a really fine stone, but as soon as I get back in the shop, I'm sure I'll go right back to the 1k/15k stones. It's never been easier to make things really sharp, that's for sure.
I appreciate all of the input, fellas. You certainly have given me much to think about (and more options...making my choice harder...;)).
I'm REALLY new at this sharpening stone thing. I have been using the WS3000, but I like the idea of getting a tad "closer" to the work. The stones I have now are all Kings...and 800/4000 combo and a 6000. Maybe that would be enough...especially if I followup with a good stropping.
However...I wouldn't mind another stone...:D
What you have is fine to sharpen anything as long as you use your WS to good effect for rough work.
The king 6000 was my first finish stone. It's OK, but I always felt like it cut slower and coarser than the king 8k. That's not an endorsement to buy another stone, though. A piece of MDF with green polishing stick smeared on it would match any stone I've seen, and beat most.
If you wipe the water off the surface of the king 6k and let it dry a little bit and use it like that for 10 or 15 seconds, it will behave like a much finer stone. If it loads too much, you can just refresh the surface. Same is true of any waterstone - a stone that imparts a dull finish will leave a bright polish if you do that with it.
Hi Harold,I have used the king stones,They do cut fast,But i also felt like the edge could be a little keener.I use shaptons 15000 for finish and regular work.The kings wore out fast for me.But i do alot of sharpening.My set of king stone are gone i have almost gone thru a set of nortons.And I am on my second 15000 shapton.All in about three years.
I dont strop any more not needed with good extra fine stone hope you find on you like.Once you do stick with it.Using it correctly is the key. Andrew
I don't have lot of experience with the kings but I tend to agree with Dave. I don't think a diasharp will give you anything better than the king you already have. I'd say if your going to spend money on a finer stone save up a little more and get something that is better than an average 8k...such as the Sigma 13k or a Shapton 15k