I ran into this and wanted to point it out to everyone here at SMC.
I hope that this Forum will help to reduce that number!
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/...lesaw-injuries
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I ran into this and wanted to point it out to everyone here at SMC.
I hope that this Forum will help to reduce that number!
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/...lesaw-injuries
Certainly 31,400 is a big number, but I am always interested in percentages. I mean, just how many tablesaws are out there? Think about it, you have to count up not only all of the Unis, PMs, SSs, Grizs, etc, but also the benchtop Deltas, Skils, etc., etc. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a huge number. Putting it into perspective, if the total number of tablesaws out there is 250,000, then there is a 12.6% accident rate (pretty high). If there are 1,000,000 tablesaws, then that rate drops to 3%. Two and a half million saws? That number is now 1.2%.
I'm not saying anything regarding safety, I'm just asking about the whole picture.
Unless of course, YOU are the one who got bit... Then YOU are at 100%...:D
More interesting then just knowing the population size, I want to know the relative percentages of accidents on cabinet saw vs contractor saw etc. Further information on the level of injury would be useful as well. The article does share this:
Quote:
As you might imagine, roughly 93 percent of those injuries were to the users’ finger, thumb or another part of their hand. 66 percent of those injured had lacerations while 10 percent had amputations. Other types of injuries include soft-tissue injuries to the head, face and neck, presumably from flying lumber or debris caused by kickback.
And around 80,000 motorcycle accidents per year. I wish car drivers and motorcycle riders were half as aware of safety as woodworkers are. Let's all work toward reducing accidents in all potentially dangerous activities of our lives.
Interesting: "As you might imagine, roughly 93 percent of those injuries were to the users’ finger, thumb or another part of their hand." They don't mention the percentage of those that were due to the saw rearing up and attacking the operator . . . oh, that's right; that doesn't happen.
How many of the saws were even running at the time of the "accident"? Injuries while changing blades etc...
Let's use your accident rate of 3% per year. So each year, you have a 97% of not getting injured. But now, we have to look at your chances over time.
What is your chance of getting injured over two years? To calculate it, we multiply your chance of not getting injured each year - 0.97 * 0.97 = 0.94 or about 6% chance of getting injured sometime in two years.
Doing the math, you have about a 50% chance of getting injured over about 22 to 23 years. And that's injured enough to wind up at the emergency room.
This doesn't mean you can go 23 years without injury. It means that 50% of woodworkers will wind up in the emergency room within 23 years and 50% will not wind up in the emergency room in that time. (That's actually not exactly correct because some visits could be repeats, people who were injured multiple times, but it's close.)
You could be the one who winds up in the emergency room in the first year, or you could be one who never winds up in the emergency room.
Do you want to play those odds with your fingers?
Mike
[If a 3% accident rate per year seems too high to you, do your own calculations. Just keep in mind that woodworkers are a relatively small part of the population of the United States. Using your accident rate of 1.2% per year, you have about a 25% chance of injury over 22 to 23 years
What probability of injury are you willing to tolerate over your woodworking career?]
I am not a big fan of Norm, but I do like the one thing he says every show:
"Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this: there is no more important safety rule than to wear these — safety glasses."
Mike - as usual, very pristine logic. Depressing though.
Glenn - " I wish car drivers and motorcycle riders were half as aware of safety as woodworkers are."
There is an immediacy of a spinning blade that tends to get ones attention and requires us to have a heightened sense of situational awareness. We know beyond doubt that that blade is unforgiving. Ripping a board requires intense concentration for a relatively brief period of time, or at least it should.
We have our cocoon on wheels and zip along willingly oblivious to the lethal potential that often times is beyond our ability to control. Driving often times becomes a mundane task even though it is more complex than ripping a board.
Regardless, I agree with your point.
This math is based on false assumptions. Who says that someone new gets injured each time? It's also convoluted logic to assume that the accident rate is the same each year.
Statistics don't work that way. Just because 50% of the population gets a cold each year doesn't mean I'm guaranteed to get a cold in the next 2 years. Also, someone else's accident rate in no way increases or decreases the probability of ME having an accident.
What percentage of those injured are "woodworkers" and what percentage are folks who borrowed someone's table saw, have never used one before, and don't have any clue what they are doing?
I did point out that some accidents could be repeats. However, if someone is having a lot of accidents, they'd probably stop doing woodworking. The study did point out that the accident rate is essentially the same each year, even though safety devices have been added to the equipment. This indicates that people are not using the safety devices, or they're not effective.
If 50% of the population gets a cold each year, your chance of getting a cold over two years is 75%, not 100%. The calculation is 0.5^2 for the probability of not getting a cold.
You're correct that if someone else has an accident, it has absolutely no effect on your probability of having an accident. This is the same as flipping coins. If you get three head in a row, the probability of heads on the next flip is still 50%.
Mike
[Note: I have read the actual study, and not just the summary in FWW.]
[Let me add a short discussion about statistics. Statistics generally say nothing about the individual - they only make statements about a group, and are more accurate the larger the group. For example, insurance companies make a lot of money selling life insurance because the can accurately predict (with statistics) how many people will die each year by age. But that says nothing about your (individual) chance of dying each year. We simply cannot predict when you will die. You might feel really healthy but then are diagnosed with a fatal disease tomorrow. Same thing with table saw accidents. You simply cannot predict whether you're going to have an accident or when. But as a group, the study shows that the rate of accidents is pretty constant over time. No one expects to have an accident - they probably wouldn't do something they expected would land them in the ER - but people still wind up in the ER on a pretty consistent rate.]
Excellent discussion. Threads such as these are EXTREMELY important. My desire is for 0% injuries over my woodworking career. My tolerance is 0.0%. At least, that's my goal. As long as I stay vigilant and safe, I believe I can make my goal happen. Threads like these are ever so important for reinforcing that in all of us. I am always careful of the dangers of Table Saws, but it always helps to have a reminder. I saw a clip once, linked by one of these threads, to a demonstration of kickback. I had never seen what kickback actually could be until that video. It was an excellent reinforcement/lesson to my goal of 0 injuries. Almost every time I get ready to use the TS that video plays over in my head. I don't believe I need to see a clip of hand to blade contact though. I'm pretty sure I can imagine those results.
Now that I re-read my post, I guess I have nothing really to add except for gloating that I like the thread!!:D
I'm still waiting for the posts that talk about how blade guards get in the way just like motorcycle helmets. Oh wait, actually, I'm not waiting, here comes one now.:eek:
I would like to know out of 31,400 injuries.. how many were operator induced opposed to how many were actually the saw's fault. I don't have any numbers personally but.. I would guess around 31,000 were due to the operator doing something he shouldn't and the vast % of those the operator probably knew better before he did it. And for those that didn't know better.. they should have before they operated the saw I would think.
To quote Forrest Gump... stupid is as stupid does.... :)
I would think that, excepting for actual machine failure as in a blade exploding or the like, all were some kind of operator error. I can't recall the last time I ran across a saw that had malevolent tendencies built in (although I'm sure there have been some that could be attributed to designer error).
I would guess the number due to the saws fault would be higher than that. I don't know for sure ... just guessing. I lost the tip of a finger to a powermatic miter gauge that broke while I was using it. I know two other guys who have lost digits to table saws; one due to a ridgid fence that didn't stay tight, and another to a craftsman table saw whose fence also came loose. So in my tiny, tiny, sample of 3 people all of us lost a finger due to a malfunction. I'm in no way saying that 100% of accidents are caused by a malfunction ... but my guess would be more around 25%. In my opinion the cheaper the saw the more likely it will malfunction ... and there are probably thousands of really cheap saws out there. My powermatic wasn't cheap or low quality ... but the included miter gauge was.
Yep.
Kickback while trying a short test piece to adjust for a dado cut. I didnt take the time to cut a zero clearance insert, and the piece dived into the front of the dado blade and then kicked back and up into the notch between my thumb and palm. (this was about 10 years ago an all works fine now, with a slight audible 'click' when bending my thumb)
The emergency room surgeon (yep, an emergency room visit to get a couple pins put in where the thumb socket bone broke, and sew up the tissue of course)... anyway, this surgeon says he was once a woodworker him self. But over the years of sewing people up has since decided he will not have a table saw in his house. Toooo many accidents. Said if I had his job I would feel the same.
So put me in the 50% that came out on the wrong side of the statistics. I still do woodworking and enjoy it very much. I am more careful now, remind myself to take the time and inconvenience of safety seriously as top priority, and am just more generally aware.
It is no fun, and not even possible to live a zero risk life.
Fingers crossed/knock on wood... all that jazz.
When I got into this hobby almost 20 years ago, newbies and old timers used to hang out on usenet's rec.woodworking. I remember a lot of the discussions about guards and such. The old timers used to dismiss the effectiveness of the then not so advanced blade guards. What they would often cite are knowing how to properly use the tool, not to fear the tool, but to have respect for the tool. They also used to advise us newcomers to listen to that little voice in the back of your head. That isn't talked about much anymore. But after 20 years of working with dangerous machines, they were right. There are times, when it just doesn't feel right. Those are the times to stop right there, find a different tool for the task, build a jig or go "neander".
Maybe I'm starting to think like those old timers, but I think this newer generation of woodworkers are filled with too much fear of the tool than the required amount of respect.
I think we should blame all these injuries on Home Improvement shows...
Years ago homeowners were exposed only to danger from lawnmowers and jig saws, DIY is so popular now power equipment has opened up new world of hazards for them. Some tools that a 30 or 40 years ago would be unknown outside a professional setting, table saws and nail guns, especially are now cheap enough that any homeowner can afford them to have in their basements to maime themselves...
Everyone assumes that all of these injuries are blade related.
Last night I was moving my table saw, I smashed my finger between the saw & another machine. Today the finger is swollen & black & blue. If I go to the Doctor, the injury will be reported as a table saw related finger injury. The same would go for someone that is injured unloading a table saw from a vehicle.
My favorite statistic is the following.
100 percent of the people alive today will die at some point in their lifetime.
The problem I have with all of these Sawstop discussions is that a lot of figures are thrown around as if they are an accurate picture of the risk.
I do not wish to take anything away from the Sawstop -- it has a fantastic device -- and I wish that the world worked in a way that we could include the device with every new table saw sold.
But there is no way today to determine the relative safety of the Sawstop vs say ... the new Unisaw. In a previous post on this subject a study was referenced where an attempt was made to more accurately track the actual tool involved -- but it was over a very short period in one area and the actual process was not referenced. We have no way of knowing how many of these injuries involved a contractor hanging a $100.00 saw between two horses sitting on a 2x10 and a properly set up saw in a shop.
I am in the risk business and I deal with catastrophic injuries -- this does not make me an expert on this subject -- but I read a lot of these studies. Tools are dangerous -- table saws are dangerous -- hand held circular saws are dangerous.
When you buy a car do you get one with all the safety devices available and reject all others? How about the weight load and construction of the ladder you use?? If you work as a house framer .... Are you more likely to get hurt by cutting, nailing or falling??
0% of the injuries were at work
Quote:
Despite improved guards and the addition of riving knives, tablesaw injuries are still alarmingly common. A new report shows that an average of 31,400 people are treated in U.S. emergency rooms every year for tablesaw injuries. This figure doesn't include accidents on the job.
I try to forget the numbers and instead I focus on the fact that Table Saws demand a lot of respect!
So I build as many lines of defense in as possible, and so the SawStop would just be the front-line if you can afford it. I use jigs for every cut, and I have handles on those jigs, well away from the blade for both hands, and my hands do not leave those handles until the blade is fully stopped. Then I have a very thin stick that clears away any off cuts from the blade area.
Yes it's slow going, but slow and steady wins the race! Of course this is a race you can't afford to lose.
That's the approach all of us should take with all tools. However, I would say that a SawStop is actually the last line of defense, not the first line.
An airbag on a car is similar to a SawStop. You still want a well maintained car that you know how to operate and know its limitations and you don't want to operate it when your ability is impaired and you want to wear your seat belt and drive defensively. You don't neglect any of these other precautions just because you have an air bag.
Yes first to kick in when all else fails, and the last line of defense for when all measures taken to avoid using the brake fail.
Either way it's Belt n' Braces!!!
Does anyone know what the saved digits/fingers count is on the SawStop since it's inauguration date?
But in the end the only choice you have is to just not use a TS. Is that something you want to tolerate over your woodworking career? Safety is important because danger is always there. You have to approach any endevour aware of the risks and rewards and balance those. Safety in the woodshop is something everyone here probably thinks about actively than automobile safety but you are MUCH more likely to die in an automobile. Cars are a risk we pretty much have to take but use of a TS is a choice, in the end driving/riding in a car is dangerous and I know very few people that even bother to buy the safest car they can afford, their purchase is based on looks, comfort, country of origin et al.
For me woodworking is the safest major hobby that I endulge in. In fact one major accomplishment I have in one of my hobbys has a 1 in 5 DEATH rate among those that accomplish it just during the actual act not the counting the training that leads up to it. Then again Ernest Hewingway said there are only three real sports and my hobby is one of them.
Articles like this are excellent reminders of how vigilent we need to be but trying to extrapolate how likely one indivdual is to have or not have an accident can't accurately been done with this info. One just has to develop a set of safety skills and procedures and be mindful of them everytime they enter the shop. We are never going to be perfect but we shouldn't live in fear either, respect yes, fear no.
I agree with your major points. My goal is to understand the risks and then do what I can to reduce the risks to a point that is acceptable to me.
Your major point that we live with risks everyday is very true.
Mike
[Ernest Hemingway's three real sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering]
Every time you flip a coin, your odds of a heads are 50%. If you flip it 5000 times and get heads every time, it's still 50% the next time you flip. If your odds in a given year are 3% (or whatever), the next year your odds are 3%.
Just because 3% of the population gets hit in a given year says nothing about your individual odds. Someone that works 12 hour days 7 days a week at a saw will have higher odds do to tiredness, repetitive sedation, lots of other reasons. Someone that has never used a saw will have higher odds. Someone that takes unnecessary chances will have higher odds, etc.
You're absolutely correct. However, the question being asked was different from what you're saying.
Let's assume that 3% of the woodworkers have a table saw accident each year, and the question of who has the accident is totally random, like the flip of a coin. If you go through a year and don't have an accident, your chance of having an accident this coming year is still 3%.
But let's ask the question a different way. Let's go back to our original year and ask, "What is the probability of you having one accident in the next two years?" That is, the probability that you will have an accident either in year one or in year two. To do that, we take the probability of not having an accident in each year and multiply them together .97*.97 = .94 Since this is the probability of not having an accident, the probability of an accident is about 6%.
Suppose we ask, "What is the probability that you will have at least one accident in the next 20 years?" We can multiply .97 time itself 20 times, or simply raise .97 to the 20th power, which gives the answer (about) .54
Since that the probability of not having an accident, the probability of having an accident is 1-.54 or about .46 So if you have a 3% chance of an accident each year, in 20 years the probability is about 46% that you will have one accident in those years.
Mike
[Or using coin flips, let's ask the question, "What is the probability of getting three heads in the next three flips?" Since the probability of a head is .5, the probability of three in a row is .5 raised to the third power, or .125 You can verify this is true by flipping a coin three times, and doing it over and over. You'll find that about 12.5% of your trials result in three heads.]
Mike,
Woodworking is in the stone ages for the DIY and small operations.
If you visit an industrial plan you will see that woodworking is very much done like a machine shop...only faster.
CNC Beam saws, CNC routers,
Gand and rip saws with overhead conveyors and 3 lines of protection...
The best thing for the small guy is to copy the industrial setups using...
The Dead Wood Concept.
All industrial high production machines are designed one way or another to comply with the DWC.
Pushing an unstable piece of wood against spinning blades without a way to
counter the forces generated by the spinning blades and knifes...
is a ticket to the emergency room.
Overpowering the forces of the spinning blade with a simple and effective
device is the answer to safety.
Some may say that safety is slow.
To me, safety is the first step to quality, accuracy and speed.
If you've read my other recent posting, Dino, you know that I just bought a SawStop Professional table saw.
Mike
I'm gonna inject a dose of numbers that are closer to reality. Those 31,400 injuries (in the US) are for NON-work related injuries. The total number of serious - hospital treated - table saw injuries per year is more than 50,000. The number of table saws (in the US) is even harder to determine - a study in the early 2000s estimated 6,000,000 to 10,000,000. (But how often are they used? Didn't even try to answer that...) Anyway, that puts the annual serious injury rate for table saws in the .5% to .9% range.
If you have a "coin" that flips 5000 heads in a row, then the assumption that the coin is fair - that the chance of heads vs tails is even - is seriously flawed. I'd bet quite a lot that the next flip would be heads... Now, that reasoning doesn't hold for 3 heads in a row, or even 10 in a row, but 5000 is a whole 'nother story.
No license or training needed to operate a tablesaw! Any person, regardless of age, can buy a new or used one. Tablesaw owners run the gamut of society: Professionals who likely had mentors to teach them. Serious hobbiests who scrutinize every nuiance of them. Homeowners who only need to accomplish a DIY job. Others who may, or may not live in the real world of consequences for a given action. They may be the elderly senile, or the young immature having a video game mindset, which allows one to *push reset* or *log off* with no consequence at all.
Distractions of every sort must certainly contribute to TS accidents. And, one must wonder how many TS accidents occur while under the influence of alcohol, recreational drugs, or even prescription meds. The All-American scenario of a *brewsky* (or 2 or 3 or 4) in the shop while doing *hobby stuff* is normal for many. 2 or 3 beers consumed, and most states deem an individual too impaired to drive a vehicle; liable to arrest. A tablesaw (or other machine) can also plainly be a lethal weapon to an operator *under the influence*.
I am not a Poker player, nor do I play the Lottery. There are *the odds* and then there is Providence! *Beating the odds* always defies statistics or logic. So far, for over 30 years, I have been blessed to avoid any serious TS accident. If one should believe No One is watching over him, then it's all up to that individual, what he does, or doesn't do! Caveat emptor! Let the buyer beware!