CerMark Problems

[Kimberly Connor]

I have a customer that does custom duck calls. We started off lasering the wood with his logo but now he has decided to engrave the bands instead. It will make things easier because all of his calls are different sizes and shaped and it is taking a log time for individual setup of each call.

The problem I am having is the CerMark is not staying on the bands. I did some test bands for him and they looked great but after he started working with them and polishing them several times the black started coming off. Is there anyway to prevent this? Is there a top coat that I can put on that will set it or something?

I know it is taking me FOREVER to get it to actually take on the band. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciate!!!

Thanks!
Kim

P.S. I am using a Pnnacle ZX Series 40 watt laser.

[Scott Shepherd]

Where do the bands come from? There are known issues with low quality chrome plating coming from other countries. If these bands are imported and they are very inexpensive to him, then you might want to consider them as a potential cause of the problem.

Search the forum for chrome or cermark and you should find references to people having issues with it. I am unaware of any fixes for it if it is chrome from another country.

[Martin Boekers]

I have never had good luck with Cermark, others seem to have so hopefully they chip in some information.

Recently (last 6 months) I got an email from them saying their product was new and improved and with better instructions.

They offered a discount to try their "new" formula. I suggest that they exchange the bottle I have that I couldn't get to work would be a better plan.

I never heard back from them.

I hope they can get this to work eventually, because I really could use something like this!


Marty

[Rodne Gold]

The secret with these compounds is the coating method..an airbrush works best ...it needs to be uniform and light.
The other secret is not to use too much power.......
We have a stock test to see if the mark is good when we do large qtys of something , we use scotchpads and give it 50 rubs with moderate pressure...if the mark dulls or comes off we adjust power/time
Often a mark looks good but it is not durable

[Gary Hair]

I have done a ton of Cermark and I have very little that doesn't turn out well. The secret is to do a lot of testing before you do your final production run. I have a grid of 1/4" squares that I run at various speed/power settings to determine the optimal setting for that particular piece. You have a lot of latitude in power, more is usually better (or slower speed if you are at max power). You'll know you are hitting it with too much power, or too slow a speed, when the black turns bluish/gray instead of black.

Draw 10, 1/4" squares and laser them starting with 100% power and 100% speed, decreasing the speed by 10% on each square. Use a paper towel and scrub the piece fairly heavily and you will see which squares are sticking best but not turning blue/gray. Run another 10 squares using the highest speed and lowest speed that stayed stuck as your starting and ending speed and adjust the speed for the 8 in between. Again, rub with the paper towel to see what stuck the best. After this little test, 10 minutes tops, you will have the optimal speed/power for that material.

Different metals will take pretty widely varying settings so you need to do this for each metal - brass, stainless, aluminum, steel - even the various platings are a bit different.

Use this method and you will not have any problems with Cermark, I guarantee it! It will either work or not, no second guessing.

Gary

[James Rambo]

Years ago when I first started to try using (cermark?, cerdec?) Ferro LMM6000. I ordered a sheet of brass. When it arrived I tried the cermark, spraying it on with a preval sprayer. It would not stick after engraving. After a few trys I found that the brass had a clear coating. Then I turned the brass over. I did not like the discolored finish and used BRASSO on it to clean it up. I then spayed the cermark on let it dry and used the last power/speed setting a thought worked on the clear coat side. I cleaned it up and used the BRASSO on it again as a test and it would not come off. I think it turned out great.
So, if the setting are right and the application of cermark is good I think it should be permanant even after polishing.
I use 600 dpi 25 speed 95 power

[Joe Pelonio]

Some metals will come with a clear coat and must be bare for the cermark to work. Try an experiment, engrave the metal band as if it had cermark on it, then without moving it, apply the cermark and run again. If it works this time, then it was coated and you have burned off the coating to make it work.

[Frank Corker]

I agree I think there is probably a coating on it which is why it isn't adhering. I pretty much have same beliefs as Rodney, airbrush on, just enough to cover it. Never had one come away since.

[James Stokes]

If they are brass bands sell him some Flexibrass.

[Rodne Gold]

Will the flexibrass bend well over a small radius like a duck call? We use that very thin "laserlight" self adhesive stuff for radical curves...
There is an issue with clear coating and trying to remove it with a laser..most laserable painted brass is actually clear coated prior to the paint layer..the idea is that the clear coating will not be ablated with the paint and will maintain the brasses brightness and stop it tarnishing. Often it is very difficult to remove some clear coating and some leave a residue if removed which then makes for a less than satisfactory marking.
We normally use a solvent on the metal if we feel it has a clear coating and if it doesnt work after that..we decline to do the job.
Be very careful about doing metals that do tarnish like brass , silver or copper. A lot of non ferrous metal cleaners (mostly contain phosphoric acid) and heavy duty metal polishes (like brasso) will remove the mark pretty quickly.
Essentially we just limit the marking compounds to Stainless and titanium marking due to hassles we have had with other metals.
We dilute our marking compound with ethanol or water and add a drop or 2 of dishwashing liquid (the cheapest type without additives like lemon or lanolin) as a wetting agent (so it doesnt bead on polished metals) We also never use air assist when using these compounds , cos the air assist often removes microflakes of it and this leads to unsatisfactory densities or markings.
As a matter of course..no matter whether the metal has a coating or not , we use either meths or benziene to degrease the metal prior to applying the marking compound.
There is also another issue ..we have found pre application and then storage of the lasered item to be a nightmare sometimes , some metals develop a stain where the marking compound was applied. So the strategy is to coat ..laser as soon as possible and then remove the excess. IE leave the marking compound on for as short a time as possible.
We also reclaim unused marking compounds
1) spray in an enclosed box of prespex so as to scrape off overspray off the sides of the box
2) mask areas where the compound is not needed
3) scrape off unused compound with a toothbrush after lasering
4)wash over a bowl and then reclaim the balance by evaporating the water.
Hope some of this helps

[Kimberly Connor]

Thank you for the replies!!! I talked to my customer and got the name of the supplier for the bands. I am having to do these on the rotary because they are already in a true band form. So I am having to rub them before I take them off because I can't get them to line back up again perfectly after removing them.

This is the reply that I got from the supplier. I am going to try the lighter fluid and see if that takes off any coating.

"Once the bands are polished I use emory buffing compound on them, and then stipple them. After that they are cleaned with Brasso. That's all I put on them. You can use some lighter fluid to take any residue from the brasso off if you want. It wont hurt the bands. But I don't put anything else on them."

I have been applying it with a foam type brush or sponge. I will get it and try the spray gun and see if that works.

Again, thank you for all your replies. I am going to try several of the suggestions and see what works.

You all have been great with your advice on here. I haven't actually posted very many times because I have been able to find solutions to my problems just reading the forum. For someone new to this business it has really been a HUGE help!!! Thank you again!!!

[Belinda Barfield]

Kimberly,

It sounds like you may have your problem solved. I just wanted to chime in and say you aren't the only one who has had problems. During the Christmas season I had an issue with some chromed pieces that a customer provided. One was a key chain, the other was a card case. I spoke with a tech at Laserbits and he advised me that the problem was the quality of the chrome. The Cermark bonded beautifully, but when I cleaned the pieces there was an oxidation haze in the area that had been sprayed. I was able to remove a good bit of haze with polishing compound and buffer, but that left very fine swirl marks and some of the haze remained. The chrome was not coated. Luckily, the customer understood and was okay with everything since the pieces were inexpensive.

Good luck!