grain orientation for kit cabs

[Matt Newton]

I wanted to find out if the grain orientation for the plywood panels on face frame kitchen cabinets makes a difference. I want to optimize the use of the plywood, so rotating the pieces would help. I'm talking about panels that would't be seen unless you open the cabinet. Obviously exposed sides are a different matter. I'm redoing the entire kitchen and I'll try to take some before and after pictures to post.

Thanks,
Matt Newton

[Joe Jensen]

I've always oriented every plywood panel vertically but I'm pretty picky. If a contractor had put some horizontally I'd complain.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I submit that the grain orientation is a question of either aesthetics or loading (& often both).

If the panels are nearly square or at least not rectangular by more than a foot or so then loading is less an issue. It the panels are long and will be loaded along the length then I'd run the grain the long way.

If however the panels are side and back panels and the loading will be born across the whole panel fairly evenly then the whole question is aesthetics.

However I submit that running the grain vertically is better for back panels because of the particular loading imposed by hanging the cabinets.

[Larry Fox]

I agree with Joe. However, you can switch things around to optimize your cutlist on base cabinets that have all drawers as the interiors will never be seen except by someone poking around with the drawers out.

[Ken Consaul]

For upper cabinets, I always use(d) the vertical orientation as the cabinets are opened frequently and are at eye level. As the typical cut is an 11 1/4 rip you won't have much waste. If uppers are 36" you will have two feet left over and this can usually be used for shelves
In the base the vertical orientation is mandatory where exposed. Typically, we would cut two cross-cuts at 35 1/4" and then rip at 23 1/4". This leaves a 26" x 48" cross grain left over. We would cut a side cross grain piece in the above dimensions for an inside case divider as it is seldom seen unless you are looking for it. Often a stack of drawers is a good place to use it. Also, the 26 x 48 makes a good shelf for a blind corner cabinet shelf.
The fall off was used for various blocking and supports as needed. This gets the most mileage out of a piece of ply.

[Brett Nelson]

I would like to re-open this thread to get everyone's opinion on grain orientation for shelves. I was planning on vertical grain orientation for sides panels and backs, but what do you guys do for tops, bottoms, and shelves?

[Karl Brogger]

I always run the grain left to right, does that make sense? For shelves and decks, for partitions and ends vertically. Always. How much more material are you talking about having to buy? If its just a sheat or two, just bite the bullet and buy the extra. You'll probably burn up the scraps making shelves, and if not you've got scraps to do something else. I'd cheat it if I had a piece that would work for a unfinished end on a drawer stack, that's about it. If I had a piece that would work for a unfinished end on a drawer stack, then I'd probably cheat it. That'll never be seen at all.

just my opinion.

Depending on the height of your uppers, usually things lay out pretty well with 4x8 sheat stock. When you get into trouble is going past a 48" upper cabinet that the waste becomes obscene with out proper planning, especially backs. Took me two jobs with 54" uppers to figure that one out, and how to fudge some of my rules so the backs ended up at 48".

I always cut out bases first. Rip the sheat in half, or size +1/2", then rip off the factory edge. Depending on how high your toe kick is you can get either 3 partitions, 2 ends, or 1 end & 2 partitions out of a rip. (My partitions come out at 30" with a 34-1/2" cabinet and a 4-1/8" toeboard on the box using 3/8" dado's).

Uppers I still do my rips first, but I cut out all of my tops and bottoms first as they are a different depth than the partitions. I typically don't have much waste using the standard 30"-36"-42" sizes for uppers. The drops get burned up pretty quick getting used for shelving.

Rarely do I pitch a piece that is wider than say 14", the drops always seem to work out pretty well for me. Now that I say this the next couple of jobs I do will probably be horribly wastefull.

Good luck, as you probably know proper planning and thinking ahead are the best ways to keep waste at a minimum. and not screwing the pooch by getting dyslexic with the number helps too. (My most common mistake when I have too many numbers in my head at once)

[Joe Chritz]

I have been told and believe that orientation of plywood doesn't make any real difference. The face you see is about .020-.040 thick and obviously makes zero difference but there will be some difference with the plys.

If the piece is not seen at all I wouldn't care but normally every piece is at least seen somewhat.

Cutlist is a savior and pays for itself many times over.

A bigger question is "which way should the veneer grain run for a drawer bottom?" I always run them so it is lengthwise with the drawer but traditional (not plywood) bottoms have to run the other way.

Joe

[Karl Brogger]

Front to back for drawer bottoms. It just looks odd when sideways.

[Steve Griffin]

Side to side grain is what I always do for drawer bottoms. The cutlist is significantly easier with a common ripping width. I've done it for so many years, it's what looks normal to me.

But now that I have read a few comments about how some think that looks funny, I might have to rethink it. I've learned years ago that what I think doesn't matter when it's not my kitchen.

Also, horizontal grain on base cabinet backs is so often easier, that it is starting to look better and better to me. Everything but the sides gets white melamine of drawer banks. Uppers still never get horizontal grain.

-Steve

[Karl Brogger]

Side to side grain is what I always do for drawer bottoms. The cutlist is significantly easier with a common ripping width.

Very true. After you get a big pile of scraps for bottoms you can usually do pretty well, but I agree probably not a real effecient use of material. Using 5x5's seems to help though, course there's no better direction to rip it either.

[Joe Chritz]

See what I started now.

I popped that up because I once had someone mention that a drawer bottom was sideways in the grain orientation. I did it because I had scraps available but once I explained that when drawers were all solid wood (before plywood) that is how they were made to account for wood movement all was well with the world.

Now I use scraps for other projects usually and when doing a big one I just pop everything into cutlist and buy that many sheets. Time is money and all that.

Joe