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Thread: Troubleshooting a wooden bodied plane or the guy using it

  1. #1
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    Troubleshooting a wooden bodied plane or the guy using it

    I'm new to the forum. I've used hand tools for probably twenty five years. My problem is with a seventeen inch wooden bodied plane. I make violins and want to use the plane to joint the two book matched halves of the tops and backs. I've used an iron plane in the past but it's not a very good plane with it's own problems. I use the wooden plane on it's side with a shooting board. The pieces to be joined are only about sixteen inches long. I glue these up with hide glue and no clamps, so there is no room for error. The joints have to be perfect.

    The problem is the shaving is slightly heavier in the middle of the cut than it is on the ends (both ends). When I hold the two pieces together (as if glued) up to window light I can see very faint light coming through the center section tapering towards both ends. I messed with this plane for a couple of hours today and no matter what I did the problem seemed to repeat it's self.

    The plane is an old English plane that is almost like new. It had never been used before I bought it thirty years ago. It has a big heavy laminated iron and a heavy chip breaker. The bottom is flat and the iron is sharp. I take very fine shavings and the plane cuts like a dream. It cuts Curly Maple beautiful with no chatter or tear out.

    The problem may be me, but I can't figure out what I'm doing different in the center section than I'm doing on the ends. Any help would be appreciated, after two hours it became a source of frustration.

    Berl

  2. #2
    Berl:

    If you are using the plane on it's side with a shooting board I'm assuming a one handed grip of the plane. If I'm right that might result in a greater pressure being applied to the center. To check this I suggest you plane any board of similar thickness while held upright in a vise and using a two handed grip on the plane. This should let you know if it's the plane or you.

    Bill

  3. #3
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    Have double checked the edge of the shooting board with a good straight edge?
    Welcome to SMC BTW.
    Use the fence Luke

  4. #4
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    Check that the side of the plane riding on the shooting board ramp is flat. It has to be just as flat at the bottom and at right angles. Also check that the ramp is flat. There might be a high spot that causes the plane to tilt toward the work slightly when it is near the center.

  5. #5
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    Thanks Bill I'll try that tomorrow. Although I use two hands on the plane I'll try it on a board clamped upright and see what I get. Here's the thing that's strange to me. I jointed six sets of spruce tops and two maple backs perfectly. I noticed the bottom of the plane wasn't dead flat so I flattened it on a piece of glass with sandpaper glued to it. Now I've got a flat plane and can't cut a good joint, go figure. I read somewhere to check the bed of the plane for flatness or foreign material. I had the iron out a couple of times today but I don't believe I checked the bed. They said if it isn't flat the iron can rock on the high spot changing the depth of the cut. I'll look for that also.

    Berl

  6. #6
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    Berl, first question is do you have a problem. Holding up 2 boards to the light can show a gap, but it isn't clear how big the gap is. You can fairly easily see light through a gap of .001 or .002 . If you have a .001 to .002 in the middle of 16 inch long pieces, that would usually be consider ideal. You put a clamp across the middle to draw the pieces tight and the glue will keep it tight once it cures. I use hide glue for most of my glue ups and wouldn't hesitate to glue it up if the gap was small - say .001 through .005 and I use clamps with hide glue with no problems. If you can't use a traditional clamp, you may still get by with holding the joint tight and using tape to keep it in place while the glue cures. If you can slide 2 pieces of paper between the 2 boards, or you can see it when the boards are lying on the bench, then the gap is a problem - which I would guess is either the shooting board isn't true or technique. As to the shooting board, lay one of the just trimmed edges up against it with the trimmed edge facing the shooting board ( opposite to its postion when used on the board) If the board is bowed, that should be easy to see. If the board is okay check your technique. When you start the cut, the weight of the plane should be mostly on the forward end and then the weight shifts rearward until as the front of the plane passes over the edge of the piece, the weight is all on the rear. . Of course, the other answer is to just take a light shaving off one end, the gap should diminish to something acceptable. Sorry I couldn't be of more help but the typical problem with a handplane is the piece turns convex, not concave

  7. #7
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    Just to add to Barry's comment, if you have a little gap in the middle of the panels and the panels have contact at the ends, what you have is a "sprung joint", which is actually ideal for a panel glue up. The sprung edges create greater tension at the ends of the joint, which assists in creating a seamless joint, and help if the ends of the panel dry and shrink. In the actual glue up process, clamp pressure will bring the middle of the boards together.

    So really what you have is perfect edge joint preparation technique.

  8. #8
    On very thin boards or veneer, I use a piece of medium sandpaper glued to a piece of MDF (flat, no flex) to get the final fit - that is, after I shoot the boards or cut the veneer, I use the block. I check where I need to remove some wood, and use the sandpaper block to rub back and forth in that area.

    Within two or three fittings (and sandings), I can get a perfect fit (over a length of up to about 24").

    Mike

    [To use the block, stick the wood or veneer just off the side of your bench (so it sticks out just a small amount) and use the block to sand the areas needed.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 01-21-2009 at 9:59 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  9. #9
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    I have more questions than answers.

    Are the pieces being worked flat or curved? If curved, are they being prevented from flexing in the center? If they are being pressed in the center, the pressure may be pushing the wood into the plane with slightly more pressure.

    If the two pieces are being planed at the same time, there will be two shavings. Are both shavings the same from end to end?

    My thought is the pieces being book matched could lead to different grain directions on the pieces and one getting a very small amount of tear out.

    Is the blade sharpened perfectly square. Many people like to have a slight camber to their blades. If shooting two pieces together with a cambered blade, one piece could actually be giving up a slightly thicker shaving. This could also be the culprit if the work piece curves and gets cut on different parts of the blade. The ends would be cut on the lower edge of the blade, the center gets cut on the part of the blade sticking out the most. If the pieces are curved, this could be checked by flipping the piece over.

    Also if the blade is slightly tilted to one side or the other it could cause a similar problem.

    It may be possible with light weight pieces to clamp the plane in position and then pass the pieces being worked across the plane.

    Hope this helps, sometimes to find an answer, one must ask the right question.

    jim

  10. #10
    Funny, I was having the exact opposite problem shooting some mandolin tops earlier... drawing a high spot in the middle of the plates. I'm fairly certain it was because I was being ham-handed with the plane, so I switched some things around and was getting a much better joint.

    I'm thinking the problem might be with the flatness of your shooting board or how you're clamping the plates to the board, if at all... I assume you are, because you said you've got two hands on the plane. If there is a slight warp to the plate, clamping it down might cause the center to bulge out.

  11. #11
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    Thank you for all the replies. Some really good suggestions. A ton of information from talented people. I just found this fourm the other day and I really like it.

    It's 7:00 AM and I'm getting ready to have a go at it again today. I don't want to spend a lot of time on this today but I do want to get this fixed. I'll let you know how it workes out. Later

    Berl

  12. I understand your desire to have a perfect joint as for thin pieces like a violin sound board, a sprung joint is not desirable.

    I think there might be more than one problem. I'm going to assume that your plane sole is flat as you said you checked it. I often intentionally create the hollow in the center of the board edge that you describe as it aids me in knowing when the edge is straight. When you have this hollow, a long plane will ride over the hollow and only take a shaving from the two ends. When your plane takes one continuous shaving from end to end, you are done and your edge is straight (unless you did it too many times and made a convex edge). However, this is a clue to what might be happening.

    If you are planing from one end to the other and getting uninterupted shavings over the entire length of the board, it is impossible to be planing more from the middle than the ends IF the board is straight/flat. That is to say, a plane's natural tendancy is to create a convex edge and we need to specifically work at creating a hollow in the middle of a flat board when using a long plane.

    What I suspect is that your problem is twofold. You say you are working on a shooting board, so shifiting of the plane from side to side during the cut is impossible. However, if your shooting board has a hump in the middle (with respect to the ramp where the plane rides), a thin board would end up being curved along it's length when held down to this humped surface. Now here's the second part of what I suspect is the problem. If your iron were ground perfectly straight across and the projection of the iron below the sole was even across the width of the plane, this hump in the shooting board would not be a problem as the shaving would be equal thickness anywhere on the iron. However, if your iron is at all curved/cambered (or if the projection of a straight iron is not even all the way across the sole), the shaving will be thicker at the middle of the iron and thinner at the outside of the iron. If your shooting board has a hump AND your iron is cambered (or the projection is uneven), you will be taking a thicker shaving at the center of the cut than you will be at the ends of the cut, even if you are taking full length shavings.

    I suggest you check your shooting board for a hump in the center with respect to the plane ramp and also check your plane iron for camber or curve along it's cutting edge. If you do find a hump you can try to remove the hump but this is probably the harder way to go. I would suggest making sure your iron has a dead straight cutting edge AND that the projection of the iron below the sole of the plane is even all the way across. This will ensure that you get a shaving of consistent thickness anywhere on the iron, even if your stock conforms to a hump in the shooting board.

    Good luck and be sure to let us know what you find. This is quite an interesting conundrum, even if a bit frustrating to you .

  13. #13
    Hi Jim:

    You wrote "I have more questions than answers.. . .
    Hope this helps, sometimes to find an answer, one must ask the right question."

    For a minute there it sounded like you were a preacher. I've been known to say those sorts of things. Anyway you all have some great observations to share. Thanks

    Peace,
    Jim paulson
    Last edited by Jim Paulson; 01-22-2009 at 9:32 AM.

  14. #14
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    One other thought - Robert's given you what is, in my opinion, the most likely suspect in the results you're seeing.

    However, there's another possible fly in the ointment. If you flattened the plane on a piece of glass with sandpaper, it's possible your plane bottom in no longer flat, but convex. There are a couple of possibilities that would cause this result - the plane did not have the wedge and iron firmly wedged into the stock when the bottom was flattened, and when they were wedged into the stock to be used, it's fairly typical for them to bow the sole convex slightly (certainly a few thousandths). Another possibility is that the glass plate isn't thick enough, nor resting on a completely flat surface. Unless it's 1/2" thick or more, plate glass must rest on a flat surface (like a couple of pieces of MDF glued together) to prevent flexing in its center when the plane's pushed across it.

    I'd check the sole carefully with a good, precision straightedge (borrow one if that's all you need it for).

  15. #15
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    And the winner is David Keller NC. Never trust what someone tells you. I said the bottom of the plane was flat. Guess what comes next. Not flat at all. When I (so called) flattened it, I marked it with pencil to see where the high and low spots were. When all pencil lines were gone I thought I had it. Wrong! Somehow and I don't know how I did it but I got the ends a tiny bit lower than the center. The sole was slightly convexed from one end to the other. It doesn't take much to screw up things when your making a joint like these. I discovered this this morning when I was checking my shooting board for a hump. First I retracted the iron and tightened the wedge again and checked the bottom with the straight edge. There it was, I don't mind telling you I felt really stupid. I got my Stanley #80 and put a new edge on it and trued the bottom by hand. I'm back to making perfect joints again. I was sure it had to be the plane or the shooting board because I got the same results every time. It was so strange because the shaving was about .001" thicker in the middle than on the ends. Once again thanks for all the input, as I said I'm new here but really enjoy all the talk about hand tools, dovetails, benches and things. I'll post some pictures later of my benches and shop. Later

    Berl

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